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Post 40

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, excellent point Jason! BONK

Post 41

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jason wrote:
How can a force initiator hold any value to me when the standard of value is my life?
Why do I keep seeing this error on this site?

The Objectivist ethics holds man's life as the standard of value — and his own life as the ethical purpose of every individual man.

Jason, your life is not your standard of value (if you're an Objectivist).

The standard of value of the Objectivist ethics — the standard by which one judges what is good or evil — is man's life, or: that which is required for man's survival qua man.

Note that Rand specifically says that an individual's own life is not the standard but rather man's life qua man.

Post 42

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Rick - was biting my tongue waiting for SOMEONE to notice that...

Post 43

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, then should the force initiator hold any value to me or are you simply correcting the implication of my first sentence?

 - Jason


Post 44

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jason was right when he said that the force initiator held ZERO value to him.  This was probably the most germane thing said in this discussion so far, so can we keep it focused on that?

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Post 45

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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This discussion brings me to a real problem I have with Objectivists: their tendency to see people as utterly defined by certain isolated actions.  Like anyone who threatens you is a de facto hardened criminal.  People make all kinds of bad choices, often thoughtlessly or compulsively, out of ignorance, out of fear.  Such folk sometimes initiate force.  I'm not saying that you would be wrong if you seriously hurt or even killed someone who threatened you with a knife, say, but I don't know why it is necessary for me to absolutely devalue his life as he momentarily devalues mine.  He is in a desperate and possibly unique situation in his life.  Why should I set my sense of life at his level, judge his life by his standards and not my own?  I'm trained in martial arts and might very well be able to disarm the man with ease.  In such a case, he thinks he's threatening my life, but I know that he really isn't.  He has clearly initiated force against me, but I rationally judge that I am not terribly threatened.  And once disarmed, his situation is very different.  His new situation could very easily inspire him to make some very rational choices, like going away and leaving me alone.  Am I foolish to imagine that he might think twice about pulling a knife on anyone very soon?  Or are all criminal acts committed by irredeemable, hopelessly irrational recidivists?

A lot of what I've learned about conflict resolution involves deescalating the situation; leading the other person to reduce his hostility by example.  Though I have not yet disarmed a a knife wielding mugger, I have been in several dangerous situations that I judge could have gone badly if I didn't react with a cool head and from a place of compassionate optimism.  From what I've read, an Objectivist is morally obligated not to do so, but must meet any threat with an equal or greater and opposite threat.  If I were a rational gun-toting Objectivist, I might have killed several people in my life by now.  I'm very glad I haven't.  Objectivists seem a little overly concerned with the mere intentions of the would-be force initiator; a little too interested, frankly, in retaliatory force.  Like Dirty Harry, they want me to think that the opportunity presented by an initiation of force would make their day.  In geopolitical terms, this kind of thinking leads to the perceived need to annihilate the 'Slamo-fascists because they intend to destroy us, when a lot of us really don't see that as a realistic possibility at all.  With such terrorists out there, seems like a good Objectivist has only the one choice: all-out war.  But one choice really isn't a choice at all, is it? 

-Kevin

Post 46

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Rethinking my comments to Jason...

(Edited by Sarah House on 10/16, 8:31am)


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Post 47

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Kevin,
The only thing I would celebrate concerning a terrorist is a terrorist's decision to leave the cycle of violence and live productively and peacefully for the rest of his days. Killing terrorists will never end terrorism.
No, but doing what we can to minimize terrorism, like putting terrorists in jail, or killing them if we have to, reduces that individual's ability to harm others. Just because "killing terroists will never end terrorism" doesn't mean we should let murderers run scotch free. Could you imagine what the world would be like if we didn't stop terrorists? Yikes!
If I were a rational gun-toting Objectivist, I might have killed several people in my life by now.
Comparing this with reality: there are plenty of people here who carry guns, who have also not killed anyone. In fact, how frequently have you heard in the news that an "extremely selfish" "Objectivist" killed a man? Zero instances? Not even when they were threatened and armed? There must be a discrepancy between your perception of Objectivists and reality.

Post 48

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Kevin,

First a disclaimer -- this is my second post and I'm pretty new around here.

I think the two week points of your position are that first you see ethics as obligations. Ethics is not a list of obligations but the standard by which one judges what is good or evil. Second, there are many actions which fall into the good in situations where you are met with violent force and one of them is to meet that force measurably and appropriately. If your actions work to de-escalate the situation through retaliatory force or through reason (words) then in both cases you are acting in your rational self-interest.


Post 49

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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When humans act like mad dogs, you treat them as mad dogs... what do you do to mad dogs?

Post 50

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

No one is saying we should let murders run free, but imprisoning and killing are temporary solutions at best and they certainly aren't "winning."

William,

Is it not also in your rational self-interest to consider the consequences of an action beyond the immediate circumstances? Kevin has a good point about what appears to be a viewing of the world as semi-isolated events. I'm not sure where you're getting the ethics as obligations, though. I don't see it in his posts.

Robert,

When humans act like mad dogs, they're still human. I'd try to bring them back.

Jason,

For a value to be intrinsic I'm thinking it'd have to be some of that a priori Platonic mojo. The materialist in me says a priori is a no-no. I'm still not seeing how valuing my life and my attacker's life at the same time somehow cancels my life valuing. If ethics come from values and I value both my life and my attacker's, would not the moral course of action be to ensure the least amount of harm comes to both of us? I fail to see why, once an initiator initiates, it becomes an either/or where someone's gotta get hurt.

Sarah

Post 51

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,
No one is saying we should let murders run free, but imprisoning and killing are temporary solutions at best and they certainly aren't "winning."
I'm very open to reading/discussing plans to reduce terrorism. My current plan: promote justice, promote rationality based on reality.

Post 52

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
My current plan: promote justice, promote rationality based on reality.
And since contemporary terrorists are all about the Allah they're clearly not listening. Welp, since they've already decided that A is not A we should just kill 'em. After all, you promoted reason and they had their chance. Yep. Good plan.

And no, I don't have a better plan, but that doesn't mean I'm not working on one.

Perturbed,
Sarah

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Post 53

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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All this time we're talking and sharing our rational view
A billion other voices are spreading other news
All this time we're living and trying to understand
Why a billion other choices are making their demands

Talk of a peaceable kingdom
Talk of a time without fear
The ones we wish would listen
Are never going to hear

All this time we're shuffling and laying out all our cards
While a billion other dealers are slipping past our guards
All this time we're hoping and praying we all might learn
While a billion other teachers are teaching them how to burn

Dream of a peaceable kingdom
Dream of a time without war
The ones we wish would hear us
Have heard it all before


All this time we're burning like bonfires in the dark
A billion other blazes are shooting off their sparks
Every spark a drifting ember of desire
To fall upon the earth and spark another fire

Rush-"Peaceable Kingdom"



Post 54

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 2:56pmSanction this postReply
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Once again, multitasking is possible. Working toward peace does not necessitate blind trust in every human being.

Sarah

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Post 55

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah --

"For a value to be intrinsic I'm thinking it'd have to be some of that a priori Platonic mojo. The materialist in me says a priori is a no-no. I'm still not seeing how valuing my life and my attacker's life at the same time somehow cancels my life valuing. If ethics come from values and I value both my life and my attacker's, would not the moral course of action be to ensure the least amount of harm comes to both of us? I fail to see why, once an initiator initiates, it becomes an either/or where someone's gotta get hurt."

I guess the question is then, why do you value your attacker?  If ethics comes not just from values, but a rational set of values why would I come to logically view a force initiator as a value?  This is an interesting question and I'm curious to see if you or anyone here can answer this without sinking to the human life has intrinsic value argument which as you've pointed out is rooted in mysticism.

 - Jason


Post 56

Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

How about, I'd like to see just one culture that doesn't build itself on the corpses of its opponents. I'd like to have people not harm each other just because it's wrong to harm each other. I'd like to live in a society that doesn't think the day is complete unless they've had their dose of the War on ___. I'd like to be apart of a cogent philosophy that considers discourse a search for fact and truth rather than a war for the minds of mankind. I see valuing life, even the life of a force initiator, as a step toward achieving those I'd-like's. I don't know why everyone is convinced that value in this case means giving a force initiator anything he wants.

Sarah

Post 57

Monday, October 17, 2005 - 4:01amSanction this postReply
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Maybe because it is being a trader - exchanging value for value, whatever that value be...

Don't get me wrong, Sarah - I basically agree with you, but merely realize that world is not this world, except in parts...

(Edited by robert malcom on 10/17, 4:04am)


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Post 58

Monday, October 17, 2005 - 5:01amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Is someone who, in one instance, initiates force against you completely defined by that single instance?

Why does the phrase "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" come to mind?

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Post 59

Monday, October 17, 2005 - 6:17amSanction this postReply
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Oh sure Rick,  He's a paragon of virtue, he just killed one guy once!

 If someone knowingly commits an act they know to be wrong, even once, they are fully corrupt. The key being knowingly. Now, if they make ammends later, assuming its something you can make up for, then they can be considered in a new light, but one should never forget that they once commited an evil act.

Now that's enough of your finger-wagging Rick! :-)


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