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Post 60

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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I am sorry if I hurt you. I was speaking about I character trait I though you may have. Besides, all faulty character traits are amendable.


Hurt? I'm not hurt by this at all. I find it intellectually fascinating. If you think I have a character flaw because I expressed understanding for the cognitive dissonance between the reality and God context, fine, think what you like. You are entitled to your opinion and it does not affect me in any that I do not choose.

Post 61

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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UK,
Also, Sam Harris is pursuing the neuroscience of belief. He's looking into the neurophysiological aspects of faith and what happens in the brain in terms of faith. I was going to go down that route, but decided on other, more fundamental questions. One of which you've said I will win the Nobel Prize, eh? I'll look into it... after my MCATs.

Post 62

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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UberKuh,

Leaving apart your straw-man argument against Theism, the word 'God' actually triggered the conversation.

By the way, and for the record, you were the first to mention the G-word. And I assume the Dissent section of this forum is open to non-Atheist positions.

(Edited by Joel Català on 3/21, 11:45am)


Post 63

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Jenna W,

Related to how our discussion exactly started, all the interested can see my response to your critique on my initial view on Theodicy.


"I'm not hurt by this at all."

I am content with that, and would settle it here. 

(Edited by Joel Català on 3/21, 11:16am)


Post 64

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Joel wrote:

"I don't see the intelligibility of the universe as an accident." And: "I think the universe has an origin, and this origin is not 'spontaneous generation'." And: "The Creator must be perfect. He never will need anything, and that includes any 'creator' of Him. Besides, that position leads us to a problem of 'infinite regression of creators', so to speak. These are reasons of why Monotheism is the only logically sound Theism. If there is any creator, He must be One."

Joel, are you familiar with the Objectivist answer to the argument that the universe requires an origin or a causal explanation in terms of a God or creator? Objectivists respond to this argument as follows. Quoting from an article by Nathaniel Branden in the May 1962 issue of The Objectivist Newsletter:


There are two basic fallacies in this argument. The first is the assumption that, if the universe required a causal explanation, the positing of a "God" would provide it. To posit God as the creator of the universe is only to push the problem back one step farther: Who then created God? Was there a still earlier God who created the God in question? We are thus led to an infinite regress--the very dilemma that the positing of a "God" was intended to solve. But if it is argued that no one created God, that God does not require a cause, that God has existed eternally--then on what grounds is it denied that the universe has existed eternally?

It is true that there cannot be an infinite series of antecedent causes. But recognition of this fact should lead one to reappraise the validity of the initial question, not to attempt to answer it by stepping outside the universe into some gratuitously invented supernatural dimension.

This leads to the second and more fundamental fallacy in this argument: the assumption that the universe as a whole requires a causal explanation. It does not. The universe is the total of that which exists. Within the universe, the emergence of new entities can be explained in terms of the actions of entities that already exist: the cause of a tree is the seed of the parent tree; the cause of a machine is the purposeful reshaping of matter by men. All actions presuppose the existence of entities--and all emergences of new entities presuppose the existence of entities that caused their emergence. All causality presupposes the existence of something that acts as a cause. To demand a cause for all of existence is to demand a contradiction: if the cause exists, it is part of existence; if it does not exist, it cannot be a cause. Nothing cannot be the cause of something. Nothing does not exist. Causality presupposes existence, existence does not presuppose causality: there can be no cause "outside" of existence or "anterior" to it. The forms of existence may change and evolve, but the fact of existence is the irreducible primary at the base of all causal chains. Existence--not "God"-- is the First Cause.

Just as the concept of causality applies to events and entities within the universe, but not to the universe as a whole--so the concept of time applies to events and entities within the universe, but not to the universe as a whole. The universe did not "begin"--it did not, at some point in time, "spring into being." Time is a measurement of motion. Motion presupposes entities that move. If nothing existed, there could be no time. Time is "in" the universe; the universe is not "in" time.

The man who asks: "Where did existence come from?" or: "What caused it?"--is the man who has never grasped that existence exists. This is the mentality of a savage or a mystic who regards existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle--and seeks to "explain" it by reference to non-existence.

Existence is all that exists, the non-existent does not exist; there is nothing for existence to have come out of--and nothing means nothing. If you are tempted to ask: "What's outside the universe?"--recognize that you are asking: "What's outside of existence?" and that the idea of "something outside of existence" is a contradiction in terms; nothing is outside of existence, and "nothing" is not just another kind of "something"-- it is nothing. Existence exists; you cannot go outside it, you cannot get under it, on top of it or behind it. Existence exists--and only existence exists: there is nowhere else to go.







Post 65

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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He's looking into the neurophysiological aspects of faith and what happens in the brain in terms of faith. I was going to go down that route, but decided on other, more fundamental questions.

That's cool. And I wouldn't want to think about religion in my professional & personal lives, either.

One of which you've said I will win the Nobel Prize, eh?

That's hella cool. Very creative. :o)

Post 66

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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I'm no Creationist, but that Branden argument seems very weak. 

But if it is argued that no one created God, that God does not require a cause, that God has existed eternally--then on what grounds is it denied that the universe has existed eternally?

There is very solid evidence that the universe has not existed eternally.  The age of the universe has been determined.  Am I missing something here?

However, there is another infinite regress problem too.  I think it might be called the cosmologic containment problem or something like that.  If we assume that one day man can understand the universe or even the fact we (and therefore the universe) are self-aware, means that the universe understands itself containing entities which understand the universe which contains entities that understand the universe which contains......

EDIT: Just to be a little more clear.  From memory, I believe the argument was more along the lines of : For a working model of the universe to be contructed that included the mind, the model must contain the infinite regression of a universe containing a mind, conceiving the universe containing a mind and so on.... Then it was used as an argument against the mind being contained in this universe.

Also seems like a weak argument, but this has been used to argue that the mind is not contained in this universe.  Back to the point - just because something is an infinite series, I do not think think this means a logic problem exists at all.

This leads to the second and more fundamental fallacy in this argument: the assumption that the universe as a whole requires a causal explanation. It does not.
 
 What? I call bullshit on that one.

This is the mentality of a savage or a mystic who regards existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle.

This refers to any who question the causality of existense.  Existence of a self-aware universe is most certainly miraculous (in the secular sense), but not necessarily incomprehensible.  A little too close to the argument from intimidation here in my opinion.  Overall, a very weak and arrogant argument by Branden.

Bob

(Edited by Mr Bob Mac on 3/21, 1:22pm)


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Post 67

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Mac,

=============
There is very solid evidence that the universe has not existed eternally.  The age of the universe has been determined.
=============

What you refer to is -- within the contextual schematism of Big Bang theory -- the time since the bang. Now -- assuming the conceptual schematism of Big Bang theory for argument -- there are 2 possibilities regarding the time leading up to the bang ...

1) the universe "popped" into existence -- from "nothingness"

2) indestructible matter existed (in some form/shape), within which was found the "potentiality" for Big Banged-ness 

I'll let you decide which seems most feasible, I'm running with the latter one, though.

Ed
[and the new theory -- several Big Bangs, in cycles, every 100 trillion years or so -- also supports the conceptual schematism of indestructible matter with inherent potentiality]



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Post 68

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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Good and Evil are valid concepts in light of man's volition. Since man's means of survival is reason he can choose to act in ways that are supportive or destructive to his life. Without choice there is no good and evil. Ther are no good or evil actions among plants.


I agree with this: good and evil are concepts used by man with his higher levels of consciousness in order to differentiate and choose between living or dying. These concepts are created by man's mind. If one also looks at the list of religions attributed to man over history, one's perspective changes so that God is just one amongst... thousands. The only constant factor is humanity, the differing factors are the deities.

Joel said:
Finally, I don't think the existence of human volition can be demonstrated.


I reply with this: "A number of brain regions contribute to the performance of consciously chosen, or ‘willed', actions. Of particular importance is dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC), together with those brain regions with which it is connected, via cortico-subcortical and cortico-cortical circuits. That aspect of free will which is concerned with the voluntary selection of one action rather than another critically depends upon the normal functioning of DLPFC and associated brain regions. Disease, or dysfunction, of these circuits may be associated with a variety of disorders of volition: Parkinson's disease, ‘utilization’ behaviour, ‘alien’ and ‘phantom’ limbs, and delusions of ‘alien control’ (the passivity phenomena of schizophrenia). Brain imaging has allowed us to gain some access to the pathophysiology of these conditions in living patients. At a philosophical level, the distinction between ‘intentions to act', and ‘intentions in action’ may prove particularly helpful when addressing these complex disturbances of human cognition and conscious experience. The exercise and experience of free will depends upon neural mechanisms located in prefrontal cortex and associated brain systems."
"Towards a functional anatomy of volition"; Authors: Spence S.A.; Frith C.D. ; Source: Journal of Consciousness Studies, Volume 6, Numbers 8-9, 1999, pp. 11-29(19)

and this:

"Conscious sensory perception and its modulation by volition are integral to human mental life. Functional neuroimaging techniques provide a direct means of identifying and characterizing in vivo the systems-level patterns of brain activity associated with such mental functions." Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences; Volume 353, Number 1377 / November 29, 1998, 1883 - 1888

and:

"Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is a commonly occurring neuropsychiatric condition characterized by bothersome intrusive thoughts and urges that frequently lead to repetitive dysfunctional behaviours such as excessive handwashing. There are well-documented alterations in cerebral function which appear to be closely related to the manifestation of these symptoms. Controlled studies of cognitive-behavioural therapy (CBT) techniques utilizing the active refocusing of attention away from the intrusive phenomena of OCD and onto adaptive alternative activities have demonstrated both significant improvements in clinical symptoms and systematic changes in the pathological brain circuitry associated with them. Careful investigation of the relationships between the experiential and putative neurophysiological processes involved in these changes can offer useful insights into volitional aspects of cerebral function." --"A role for volition and attention in the generation of new brain circuitry. toward a neurobiology of mental force" by Schwartz J.M.; Source: Journal of Consciousness Studies, Volume 6, Numbers 8-9, 1999, pp. 115-42(-72)

The existence of volition *is* demonstrated.

Here I state that good and evil are created by the Creator, and then, and only then, human volition and thus human morality is possible.


Where's the evidence for this statement?

Here's mine: "Emotion plays a pivotal role in moral experience by assigning human values to events, objects, and actions. Although the brain correlates of basic emotions have been explored, the neural organization of "moral emotions" in the human brain remains poorly understood. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging and a passive visual task, we show that both basic and moral emotions activate the amygdala, thalamus, and upper midbrain. The orbital and medial prefrontal cortex and the superior temporal sulcus are also recruited by viewing scenes evocative of moral emotions. Our results indicate that the orbital and medial sectors of the prefrontal cortex and the superior temporal sulcus region, which are critical regions for social behavior and perception, play a central role in moral appraisals. We suggest that the automatic tagging of ordinary social events with moral values may be an important mechanism for implicit social behaviors in humans." -- "The Neural Correlates of Moral Sensitivity: A Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Investigation of Basic and Moral Emotions" by Jorge Moll, Ricardo de Oliveira-Souza, Paul J. Eslinger, Ivanei E. Bramati, Janaína Mourăo-Miranda, Pedro Angelo Andreiuolo, and Luiz Pessoa; The Journal of Neuroscience, April 1, 2002, 22(7):2730-2736

and

"The moral sentiments adumbrated by Adam Smith and Charles Darwin reflect some of our basic social appraisals of each other. One set of moral appraisals reflects disgust and withdrawal, a form of contempt. Another set of moral appraisals reflects active concern responses, an appreciation of the experiences (sympathy for some- one) of other individuals and approach related behaviors. While no one set of neural structures is designed for only moral appraisals, a diverse set of neural regions that include the gustatory/visceral neural axis, basal ganglia and diverse neocortical sites underlie moral judgment."
"Moral Sensibility,Visceral Representations,and Social Cohesion: A Behavioral Neuroscience Perspective"
Author: Schulkin, Jay1
Source: Mind and Matter, Volume 3, Number 1, 2005, pp. 31-56(26)

and

"Note, also, that belief in supernatural agents (like many other explicit beliefs) is a high-level, conscious and meta-representational state. That is, people are aware of their assumption that ancestors are around (by contrast, they also assume that objects fall downwards but are not necessar ily aware of that assumption). In other words, explicit beliefs of this kind are interpretations of one’s own mental states.

It is a plausible hypothesis in cognitive neuroscience that some mental systems, possibly supported by specific networks, are specialised in producing such explicit, relevant interpretations or post-hoc explanations for the operation and output of other mental systems.

Perhaps the impression that elusive agents really are around is an interpretation of this kind, as a result of the joint activity of many automatic mental systems. In this view, spirits and ancestors would be seen by some as plausibly real be cause thoughts about them activate "theory of mind' systems and agency-detection and contagion-avoidance and social exchange, etc.. This, incidentally, would confirm that it is futile to look for the single factor that causes religious belief: the very fact that several systems are active is what causes "belief".

Whether or not this interpretation holds will depend on progress in the cognitive neuroscience of religion. Religious believers and sceptics generally agree on one thing only: that religion is a dramatic phenomenon that requires a dramatic explanation, either as a spectacular revelation of truth or as a fundamental error of reasoning. The picture of religion offered by cognitive science and neuroscience is less dramatic though perhaps more empirically grounded: religion seems to be a *probable*, though by no means inevitable by-product of the normal operation of mental systems typical of human cognition." -- "Cognitive science & neuroscience of religious thought and behaviour" by Pascal Boyer, Trends in Cognitive Neurosciences, 2002

[Religion is "probable", i.e. not "needed" but a can be a by-product of human cognition.]

and

"Morality has been at the center of informal talks and metaphysical discussions since the beginning of history. Recently, converging lines of evidence from evolutionary biology, neuroscience and experimental psychology have shown that morality is grounded in the brain. This article reviews the main lines of investigation indicating that moral behavior is a product of evolutionary pressures that shaped the neurobehavioral processes related to the selective perception of social cues, the experience of moral emotions and the adaption of behavioral responses to the social milieu. These processes draw upon specific cortical-subcortical loops that organize social cognition, emotion and motivation into uniquely human forms of experience and behavior. We put forth a model of brain-behavior relationships underlying moral reasoning and emotion that accommodates the impairments of moral behavior observed in neuropsychiatric disorders. This model provides a framework for empirical testing with current methods of neurobehavioral analysis." --"Morals and the human brain: a working model." Neuroreport. 14(3):299-305, March 3, 2003.
Moll, Jorge; de Oliveira-Souza, Ricardo; Eslinger, Paul J.

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Post 69

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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I'm no Creationist, but that Branden argument seems very weak.
"But if it is argued that no one created God, that God does not require a cause, that God has existed eternally--then on what grounds is it denied that the universe has existed eternally?"
There is very solid evidence that the universe has not existed eternally. The age of the universe has been determined. Am I missing something here?
What Branden means by the "universe" is existence as such, not existence in its present state or existence after the Big Bang. According to the Big Bang theory, the universe in its present state flashed into existence from a very small amount of matter of extremely high density and temperature -- an amount of matter that was "the universe" immediately prior to the Big Bang. So the universe in its present form was caused by the explosive actions of the universe in its previous form, as a dense, hot globule of gas, containing nothing but hydrogen and a small amount of helium, which in turn was caused by the conditions of existence antecedent to it, and so on.

But the point that Branden is making is that causality presupposes existence -- the existence of things that act as causes -- not the other way around, which is the implication in the first cause argument. What the first cause argument says is that there had to be a cause of existence as such, and that cause is a supernatural spirit. But if so, then by the same logic, the existence of the supernatural spirit would also require a cause, which leads to an infinite regress. The regress occurs, because you're reversing the order of existence and causality: existence does not presuppose causality; causality presupposes existence. Once this reversal of logical order is recognized, the infinite regress collapses. Yes, every event requires a cause, the cause being the actions of the entities involved in the event. But existence as such does not require a causal explanation, because existence would then have to be explained by reference to non-existence, and non-existence does not exist. The evidence to which you refer is evidence for the Big Bang, which (allegedly) gave rise to the universe in its present state. But the Big Bang was itself caused by the conditions of the universe immediately prior to it.
However, there is another infinite regress problem too. I think it might be called the cosmologic containment problem or something like that.... For a working model of the universe to be constructed that included the mind, the model must contain the infinite regression of a universe containing a mind, conceiving the universe containing a mind and so on.... Then it was used as an argument against the mind being contained in this universe.
Well, there is no infinite regress here either. Here's why: You can conceive of a universe that contains a mind. And if you want to perform a further process of thought, you can conceive of that mind conceiving of a universe that contains a mind. And if you want to perform a still further process of thought, you can conceive of that mind conceiving of a universe that contains a mind. But at each of these stages, you will be limited by the extent to which you have performed this process of thought. This is not an infinite regress in the classical sense -- the sense in which logicians understand a "vicious" regress to involve a logical fallacy. The example you are presenting here involves the same sort of concept as arithmetical infinity, in which the infinity is potential but not actual. You can start counting: 1, 2, 3... and continue counting for a finite period of time, but at whatever time you specify, the arithmetical progression will be finite. It is potentially infinite, but only in the sense that there is no logical point at which you must stop counting, short of physical or mental limitations. Ditto for your example involving a mind conceiving of the universe that involves a mind conceiving of the universe.
Also seems like a weak argument, but this has been used to argue that the mind is not contained in this universe. Back to the point - just because something is an infinite series, I do not think think this means a logic problem exists at all.
Right, the series has to be one that logicians refer to as a "vicious regress," but the first-cause argument for the existence of God does involve precisely that kind of infinite series -- a vicious regress.

"This leads to the second and more fundamental fallacy in this argument: the assumption that the universe as a whole requires a causal explanation. It does not."
What? I call bullshit on that one.
Well, "bullshit" is not an argument! Care to make one? Again, what Branden means by the "universe" is existence as such.

"This is the mentality of a savage or a mystic who regards existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle."
This refers to any who question the causality of existence. Existence of a self-aware universe is most certainly miraculous (in the secular sense), but not necessarily incomprehensible.
Well, if it's miraculous, then it's incomprehensible. And I'd say that it is definitely incomprehensible, because the totality of existence is not a rational organism with a brain and central nervous system that is capable of any kind of awareness, let alone self awareness.
A little too close to the argument from intimidation here in my opinion. Overall, a very weak and arrogant argument by Branden.
Well, savages and mystics do have the mentality of viewing existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle, wouldn't you say? It is the mentality of someone who does not look for rational explanations, but explains things he doesn't understand by reference to the supernatural -- i.e., by reference to something else he doesn't understand! So what Branden says is certainly true. If I say, "Anyone who keeps women enshrouded in burkas and ignorance has the mentality of a savage or a mystic," would you say that that's an argument from intimidation? Perhaps, a mullah might object to it on those grounds, but that's exactly the kind of mentality he possesses! No, I'd say that Branden's argument, far from being weak and arrogant, is a philosophical tour de force!

- Bill



Post 70

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Amen, Bill......

Post 71

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, Bill.

Ed


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Post 72

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Joel Català,

I will deal with the intellectual issues of this thread on another post if I decide to jump in. Right now, I wish to take advantage of the opportunity that you are posting again to deal with something from the past that involves only you and me.

I have eschewed the aggressive and obnoxious manner I used to use to argue with people who disagreed with the concept of Objectivism that was being promoted on the site. I remember being very insulting to you in a manner that far transcended disagreement.

Why I did that is not important. What is important is that I have evaluated that manner, found it severely wanting as a proper means of human interaction and removed it from my life. I regret the times I engaged in it. It was uncalled for and knowing that I did it makes me feel ashamed.

So I would like to offer my unconditional apology to you. That will never happen again. As I insulted you in public on this forum when it was SoloHQ, so I extend this apology to you in public.

Michael


Post 73

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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I think there's a lot wrong with what William said.

In no particular order.

"The example you are presenting here involves the same sort of concept as arithmetical infinity, in which the infinity is potential but not actual."
 
No, that's not accurate.  Maybe I didn't explain it properly.  The argument was that for a "real" model to be developed which represents reality, it would have to include a infinite regress - a vicious one.  The key word here is MODEL.  Not my argument, and I stated it was weak in my opinion, but still stronger than Branden's.

But the point that Branden is making is that causality presupposes existence

Why? Where's the evidence?  Do I need faith to believe this?  The implication that explaining existence is outside of the Objectivist model so it must be wrong?  It's called bullshit, it is completely unsupported.

Right, the series has to be one that logicians refer to as a "vicious regress," but the first-cause argument for the existence of God does involve precisely that kind of infinite series -- a vicious regress.
 
Maybe, but certainly no more vicious than the containment problem.

Well, savages and mystics do have the mentality of viewing existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle, wouldn't you say? It is the mentality of someone who does not look for rational explanations, but explains things he doesn't understand by reference to the supernatural -- i.e., by reference to something else he doesn't understand! So what Branden says is certainly true. If I say, "Anyone who keeps women enshrouded in burkas and ignorance has the mentality of a savage or a mystic," would you say that that's an argument from intimidation?

Fine, but the argument from intimidation doesn't imply falsehood, it just cannot be used as a logical support for an argument.  Rand called it a confession of intellectual impotence - very accurate for this position of Branden's.  I have other points too, maybe later, but gotta run.

Bob


Post 74

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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Joel - I think your grasp of English is fine - probably better than my grasp of humor. You not being an Oist does make a lot more sense of your theism. You're wrong of course :), but it's not something I really care to argue trying to de-convert you.

Jenna - Given your atheism and pro-science focus and the fact that you seem to be one of the most prolific writers on two Oist sites, it was surprising to see you aren't objectivist though. I promise not to witness Oism to you any more than I'd try to show Joel away from the light, but am curious where you don't see your views and Oism in sync.

UberKuh - You're definitely right about the mention of God. I was hoping the thread was going for general psych or even AI based on modeling the neocortex, but theism/atheism trumps all. The problem of evil, religious morality, and first-cause and other cosmological arguments all can be interesting, but such intricate theological questions are probably best handled by the God FAQ.


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Post 75

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
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MSK - Your name is Earl. It is enlightening to see your recent posts such as to Thomas and Joel. I've personally never had much luck with formal heartfelt apologies to people I thought I wronged benefitting either party. Your efforts are still inspiring and I hope they're fruitful.


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Post 76

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Aaron,

Regarding MSK's appologies, and your comments: I've engaged in such appologies a few times as well. The benefit is one of self-esteem and honesty. I find that not appologising for an error wounds my self-esteem. I prode myself on all the things I do correctly and take responsibility for things I do incorrectly. They go hand-in-hand. Even if the person you are appologising to is someone you don't like or who rebuffs your appology, the reasons for giving it are still sound.

While I Michael knows I disagree with him stridently on many things, I salute him for his honesty and self-esteem in this instance.

Ethan


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Post 77

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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Bill patiently explains to Bob:
But the point that Branden is making is that causality presupposes existence

Bob responds with:
Why? Where's the evidence?  Do I need faith to believe this?  The implication that explaining existence is outside of the Objectivist model so it must be wrong?  It's called bullshit, it is completely unsupported.

Bill: Bob doesn't have a clue what's going on here.  And apparently, to him, 'bullshit' is synonymous with 'I don't follow'.  I'd suggest you not waste your time, but I won't, for the selfish reason that I enjoy reading your explanations.
Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 78

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You cheered my heart. That was really wonderful from you.

I accept your apology and, in case I hurt you, I also apologise.   :-)

(Edited by Joel Català on 3/22, 9:17am)


Post 79

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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"The example you are presenting here involves the same sort of concept as arithmetical infinity, in which the infinity is potential but not actual."
No, that's not accurate. Maybe I didn't explain it properly. The argument was that for a "real" model to be developed which represents reality, it would have to include a infinite regress - a vicious one.
As I understood your model, it involves a universe containing a mind that thinks of a universe containing a mind that thinks of a universe containing a mind, and so on. But to whatever extent this process of thought is carried out, it will necessarily be limited, since you can't go on thinking forever. Therefore, the process of thought that your model of the universe involves is finite. 

The process you are describing is different from an infinite regress that involves a logical fallacy. For example, if I say that everything requires the existence of something outside itself, that statement will generate a vicious regress (in the sense of a vicious circle), because if everything requires something outside itself, then the thing outside it would, in turn, require something outside of it, and so on ad infinitum. There is no stopping this process, because it is logically infinite. Do you see the difference? The same kind of vicious regress attends the argument that everything requires a cause. If everything requires a cause, then, since the cause itself is something, it too requires a cause, and so on. The fallacy here is the reversal of existence and causality: every cause requires an existent, but not every existent requires a cause. This is what Branden meant when he said that "causality presupposes existence; existence does not presuppose causality."

"But the point that Branden is making is that causality presupposes existence."
Why? Where's the evidence? Do I need faith to believe this? The implication that explaining existence is outside of the Objectivist model so it must be wrong? It's called bullshit, it is completely unsupported.
The point is that you can't give a causal explanation of existence as such, because you'd have to explain it in terms of something that already exists. Causality presupposes existence! What is it about this that you don't understand??

"Well, savages and mystics do have the mentality of viewing existence as some sort of incomprehensible miracle, wouldn't you say? It is the mentality of someone who does not look for rational explanations, but explains things he doesn't understand by reference to the supernatural -- i.e., by reference to something else he doesn't understand! So what Branden says is certainly true. If I say, 'Anyone who keeps women enshrouded in burkas and ignorance has the mentality of a savage or a mystic,' would you say that that's an argument from intimidation?"
Fine, but the argument from intimidation doesn't imply falsehood, it just cannot be used as a logical support for an argument. Rand called it a confession of intellectual impotence - very accurate for this position of Branden's. I have other points too, maybe later, but gotta run.
Okay, but what Branden is saying here is not being used as a logical support for his argument; he's already given the argument. This was simply an additional point, and a valid one at that.

- Bill


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