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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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I have a dilemma which I have not (yet) been able to satisfactory answer with Objectivism. Maybe one of you can, or maybe we will have to draw the conclusion that Objectivism ain't the right answer always. As I have understood the example is real, not invented, but I do not know the details.

DILEMMA:
There is a huge oil company which erects new gas stations, every time right next to a competing gas station. The big company makes their price always 10% lower then the competitor. After some time the competitor gives up (or goes bankrupt). When the big company has the monopoly again they slowly start raising their prices again, so that they can actually make a profit. By continuing to do this from place to place they manage to kill the competitors and create a national monopoly on gas stations.

The crux of this dilemma of course is that the much bigger company will always have more cash reserve then a local competitor, which will enable them to take out the competition. Of course after the big company starts raising the prices again, a new competitor could come in, but if they already know they will be met with the same trick, they will probably refrain from trying.

The big company acts upon the given that people do not act as a whole, but choose what is more profitable for them now and for them individually. Even if some people would stubbornly go to the local competitor, the trick would still work.

Objectivism always was a closed system, where there were no exceptions on the general principles. I have not been able to answer this dilemma. Maybe you can?

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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This has never happened in reality - yes there was "Standard Oil" but even so, if oil became too expensive, there would also be competition in energy sources per-se, and we might be closer to a non-oil economy now!  It assumes everything works right - shareholders do not mind losing money for a long time.  Some foreign company just as large does not appear, or any of millions of scenarios.  It has always been the monopoly bogeyman that somehow mega company will manage to do this, and no one ever really did.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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The crux of this dilemma of course is that the much bigger company will always have more cash reserve then a local competitor, which will enable them to take out the competition. Of course after the big company starts raising the prices again, a new competitor could come in, but if they already know they will be met with the same trick, they will probably refrain from trying.

This is the falsity of the unseen - remember, there is the investment of the big company buying the land and building the station, not just once, but for each and every new one - a sizeable investment, which is not being recouped while selling at a loss in the effort to driving out the other business, and which would not be recouped for many years into the future in the usual investment. .. so, in actual practice, with each new building, there is continual loss incurred with the big buisness, such that it actually would end up driving that big business out of business.... contrary to myth, oil companies do not, sectionally, make a lot of money selling gas - only accumulatively across a vast span.... in short, they as such would NOT have always more cash reserve then a local competitor....


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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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The problem is that this isn't a "dilemma" at all.    Making a profit isn't a "trick."    I'm not at all clear why you consider any of this a dilemma.  Why is it wrong?  How and why are you trying to apply Objectivism to this situation?  

What's wrong with raising prices?  Monopolies can only exist with government sanction (i.e. your electric company, for example).   Private companies can't be monopolies.  That's just silly. 


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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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This is a basic hypothetical example of "predatory pricing." Objectivism, per se, is indifferent as as to whether competition increases or decreases and also as to whether consumers benefit more or less from some particular activity in some market. So long as the "predator" does not initiate force upon others, Objectivism requests that you leave the "predator" be.

However, Objectivism would likely find "predatory pricing" unethical if it is deliberately irrational, i.e., deliberately contrary to the "predator's" self-interest, which it so often is. Wiki "predatory pricing" for details.

Jordan



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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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As Jordan suggests, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

Also, protecting the smaller competitor -- by force -- would deny consumers the opportunity to buy gas 10% cheaper. 


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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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No mention of more than one huge company within this "dilemma", either, so I'm trying to think of any place I have visited that had fewer than a dozen different gas stations within a few miles of each other.
   Within blocks of my home, there are BP, Standard, Mobil, Marathon, and Clark.  There are two "little" independent stations (they're actually very large stations) that have friendly competition going on all week long. It's even been on the news. Both of these stations are at least 10 cents a gallon cheaper than the big name stations.  

Without the government's help, it just isn't possible to kill competition.


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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 4:09amSanction this postReply
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Theresa is exacly right.  There can be no monopoly without government intervention. 

Furthermore, you don't even need to have a BP and  and Exxon Mobil et al.  You just have to have the possibility of a competitor.  Even after, and perhap expecially after the "predator" company succeeds in wiping out all of the EXISTING competitors, the reality of their vulnerability has already been stated; they aren't providing the goods at a competitive price.  They are ripe for competition.


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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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There have been some excellent replies to Jan's question. But the question itself puzzles me.

Jan, how familiar are you with Objectivism? -- because this question was asked and answered 45 years ago in the June 1962 issue of The Objectivist Newsletter (in the Q&A under the title "Monopolies and Laissez-Faire Capitalism") and subsequently reprinted in Rand's book Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal (1966) in the chapter "Common Fallacies About Capitalism."

The answer has been a standard part of the Objectivist literature for decades, so I don't understand why you say that "Objectivism always was a closed system, where there were no exceptions on the general principles [but] I have not been able to answer this dilemma." The problem lies not with Objectivism but with your understanding of it. You need to familiarize yourself with the philosophy.

- Bill

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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Good point, Bill.  That same article points out something I was going to say: monopolies exist all the time.  Objectivism doesn't use the term differently from common usage.  As Branden points out in the article:
"When people speak ... of the dangers and evils of monopoly, what they mean is a coercive monopoly. ... Such a monopoly, it is important to note, entails more than the absence of competition; it entails the impossibility of competition."  [Emphasis in the original.]
So, it's coercive monopolies that can't exist without government intervention.

My favorite Steven Wright line: "I think it's wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly."



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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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I love it! Parker Brothers has a monopoly on Monopoly! Great quote, Glenn!

As Robert Malcom pointed out, the issue of cost is relevant here. What is conveniently ignored in Jan's objection is that if the big company's costs are the same, it will be incurring losses each times it undercuts its competitors. The more often it does this, the more losses it will incur. In order to make up for these losses, it will then have to raise its price higher than the competitive price, thereby inviting competition from companies who have no losses to make up and can afford to sell at the lower price.

To regain the upper hand, the would-be monopolist will again have to undercut its competitors by selling at a loss, thereby incurring further losses. This is ultimately a self-destructive policy, which is why we don't see it in practice. The only way a big company can maintain a non-coercive "monopoly" by continuing to charge lower prices is by operating at a more efficient level with lower costs, but in that case, it is the consumers who benefit from the lower prices. The company maintains its preeminent position only because its lower prices are due to lower costs, not to the practice of repeatedly selling at a loss.

- Bill

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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I confess that I am not much of an entrepreneur, but I once worked at a gas station and my observation is that "price wars" so-called operate in narrow ranges.  They are also self-limiting.  The thing is that not all corners are created equal.  Traffic flows are time dependent.  (Rush hours, traffic hours, etc.) Traffic control is beyond your control. In other words, the traffic lights can induce or reduce flow into your station or your competitor's.  Then, there are other features, like ease of use.  I have not gone inside to pay in many many months.  Some companies -- is it Exxon/Mobil or BP/Amoco? -- have these "flash cards" that you just wave at the pump.  And -- funny thing -- one local station has had a sign up for several months giving a lower price for cash than for credit.  (Credit card transactions cost money.  Cash is universal.)  And if you go inside, what else can you buy?  There is one station on my way to work where I have bought gas a couple of times, but mostly I stop there for a 12-ounce "chug" of milk to put in my lunchbox.  Another station near them (aaargh!  It's Citgo!!!)  has a Subway.  How convenient!  So, being a true capitalist I  have bought Citgo gasoline when I wanted a sub.  But, here's the kicker...

I am brand loyal.  My preferred brand is Amoco Silver with which I get the best gas mileage.  After that, I prefer Marathon because their HQ is in Ashland, Ohio, making them "hometown" folks.    But, here's the thing... and back to services...  The Amoco I go to has a repair shop -- a rarity in itself -- and a couple of years ago, before we moved here, when we were on the road and my mother-in-law's Lincoln broke down, they fixed it with a minimum of fuss and bother and at a price we were happy to pay.  I am sure they made money on that, but none of us could have predicted that in their service, they won a new and loyal customer later.

Here's a challenge.  I don't know the details, but I was told that it is true.  There once was a consumer so inept at making decisions that he moved to a socialist country.  My question is: which one?


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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill

What is conveniently ignored in Jan's objection is that if the big company's costs are the same, it will be incurring losses each times it undercuts its competitors. The more often it does this, the more losses it will incur.


In addition to that Bill even if this practice happens (and as you point out it rarely does because it is a self-destructive business practice for the most part) who benefits the most from a product sold at a price below cost? The consumer!

Now why would anyone ever complain about buying something priced below cost is beyond me.


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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Here's a challenge.  I don't know the details, but I was told that it is true.  There once was a consumer so inept at making decisions that he moved to a socialist country.  My question is: which one?
Well, if he was so inept at making decisions, how did he decide what country to go to?



 


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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 9:25pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I enjoy discussing antitrust law, so let me delve into some fun stuff. The predatory pricers undercut their competitors by selling in a particular market. The clever predatory pricers will either try to recoup their loss (a) by simultaneously selling a product for a higher price in another market where they can get away with it (usually in which they have a monopoly), or (b) by tying the sale of the product that is sold at a loss to the sale of a product that is sold at a gain, or (c)  if the company is big and can temporarily run at a loss in some market -- particularly in a market with high barriers to entry and an inelastic demand -- then it can try to recoup its loss after driving out competitors. Clever, no? Still, it's ususally difficult to do, and even more difficult to prove!

I really ought to write a blurb here about some antitrust principles. I think Objectivists generally don't really understand antitrust law. And even if they disagree with antitrust law, it has nevertheless generated very useful economics concepts that I think Objectivists would appreciate.

Jordan


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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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Another thing to consider is, what is the cost of something, really?  Have you ever tried to figure out all the accounting details of what something actually costs?  It is a nightmare, and while there are conventions, the belief that everything has some sort of concrete, objective "cost" etched in stone is ill-founded.  A business is more like a complex process, at the end of which you hope to extract profits, and even then it is hard to say - for example there are profits in non-profits, such as the employee salaries.  What about the profit of the consumer buying something at a low price? Trying to regulate these things other than to account for fraud is just not something for government to deal with.

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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 6:51amSanction this postReply
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Michael:
Here's a challenge.  I don't know the details, but I was told that it is true.  There once was a consumer so inept at making decisions that he moved to a socialist country.  My question is: which one

The obvious answer is:

Korea

(but that is such a lame joke)

Sam


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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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One example of a franchise that is frequently accused of "predatory pricing" is Starbucks.  In the Wikipedia entry here, we find the following statement:

For example, Starbucks fueled its initial expansion into the UK market with a buyout of its only major potential competitor (the 49 outlet, UK-based Seattle Coffee Company), then used its capital and influence to obtain prime locations, some of which operated at a financial loss. Critics claimed this was an unfair attempt to drive out small, independent competitors, who could not afford to pay inflated prices for premium real estate.

Thanks,

Glenn


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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

Bill,

I enjoy discussing antitrust law, so let me delve into some fun stuff. The predatory pricers undercut their competitors by selling in a particular market. The clever predatory pricers will either try to recoup their loss (a) by simultaneously selling a product for a higher price in another market where they can get away with it (usually in which they have a monopoly), or (b) by tying the sale of the product that is sold at a loss to the sale of a product that is sold at a gain, or (c) if the company is big and can temporarily run at a loss in some market -- particularly in a market with high barriers to entry and an inelastic demand -- then it can try to recoup its loss after driving out competitors. Clever, no? Still, it's ususally difficult to do, and even more difficult to prove!

I really ought to write a blurb here about some antitrust principles. I think Objectivists generally don't really understand antitrust law. And even if they disagree with antitrust law, it has nevertheless generated very useful economics concepts that I think Objectivists would appreciate.

Jordan


Well Jordan, I was an Economist (B.A. Boston University) first before delving into Objectivism so I don't know why you would just assume all Objectivists don't understand anti-trust laws. But let me take a look at the situation you are suggesting. You present a lot of scenarios not normally seen (if ever really) in any market. If you could point out a real situation where the variables you suggest has occurred I'd be willing to entertain the notion. Let's break down the variables step by step:

Company (A) is a conglomerate and operates in several markets, two in particular are of interest to us Market (x) and Market (y)

Company (A) has a monopoly in Market (y) and is commanding a high price, but has active competition in Market (x).

Market (x) is comprised of a product where demand is inelastic.

Company (A) uses predatory pricing in Market (x).

Market (x) has high barriers to entry

Result: Company (A) can afford the losses incurred in Market (x) because it's profits from Market (y) subsidize the losses from Market (x), and selling at below cost drives out their competitors.

You would have to first demonstrate two factors that are rarely true;

High enough barrier of entry that no matter what price Company (A) charges, there would be no incentive for someone to enter the market

High enough demand elasticity to the point no possible substitutions are available.

Are you aware of such a market and such a product? Or is this just a simple case of detached from reality rationalization?

I'm also wondering why Company (A) that is a conglomerate, able to operate in multiple markets, would for some reason not have competition from other conglomerates, with their own economies of scale resources that could enter into this lucrative market (x)?
(Edited by John Armaos on 12/13, 1:17pm)


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Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Hey John,
 
I don't know why you would just assume all Objectivists don't understand anti-trust laws.
Oh, because the ones I've run across have not actually read any antitrust laws. They've only read an article or two from the mid-1900s on the subject written by folks in Objectivist circles. Antitrust law has changed a hellova lot since then. 

Predatory pricing is extremely difficult to pull off successfully and even more difficult to discovery. I don't know of any predatory pricing cases that have been brought to court, much less tried successfully in over 5 decades. It's mostly an academic problem. Fun to think about, but rarely an actualy case....which is why virtually all active antitrust law is concerned with other antitrust issues.

It's close, but I'd reword this:
You would have to first demonstrate two factors that are rarely true;

High enough barrier of entry that no matter what price Company (A) charges, there would be no incentive for someone to enter the market

High enough demand elasticity to the point no possible substitutions are available.
I would reword your first factor as: High enough barrier of entry (including the cost of competing with Company (A)) would yield greater deterrence than incentive for someone else to enter that market.

I would reword your second factor as: High enough demand elasticity to the point where consumers won't turn to substitutes despites Company (A)'s supracompetitive pricing over some set period of time.  This is often referred to as a SSNIP (pronounced "snip") test, which stands for Small but Significant and Non-transitory Increase in Price.

That said, there are some great apparent attempts at predatory pricing. One of the last important cases in this area was Matsushita v. Zenith, wherein Japanese companies agreed to sell TV sets in America below cost for 20 years, while recouping those losses by selling TVs at higher prices abroad. This pretty much screwed Zenith, so it sued and lost.  The Japanese firms might well have had a successful predatory pricing scheme, but Zenith couldn't figure out how to prove that the Japanese companies recouped their losses abroad, or that American consumers got hurt over that time as a result of the scheme, even though TVs were probably sold at supracompetitive prices for sometime after the Japanese companies squashed their competitors.

There are other examples of attempted predatory pricing about gas stations, airlines, milk, and lots of other markets with fairly homogenous goods, big players, inelastic demands, and high barriers to entry. So far as I know, they all fail to establish successful predatory pricing.

Jordan

As a post-script, something Objectivists can amuse themselves with is the fact that high barriers to entry are often attributed to the heavy cost of regulation. Small players just can't dish out the big dough to meet the regulatory standards. The irony here is that the people who pull for the small Ma and Pa corner store are usually the same people who pull for that bloated regulation. To one another, big government and small players are anathema.



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