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Post 80

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Bill,

Hmm. I don't know what the hell happened in that post #12 of mine. Looking back on it, I can't make sense of it, and my citations are apparently screwy. Yikes. Very weird. Let me try again! Briefly.

Look at what Rand says is omitted in concept formation. It's not just "measurement." According to Rand, differentiation is one of the key roles of measurement in concept formation.
Tables, for instance, are first differentiated from chairs, beds and other objects by means of the characteristic of shape, which is an attribute possessed by all the objects involved. -ITOE
What is first being differentiated? Chairs, beds, and other objects. Are these measurements? No. They are existents that have measurements. 

Also, Rand allowed a characteristic to be viewed as a measurement based on its role in concept formation:
"When concepts are integrated into a wider one, the new concept includes all the characteristics of its constituent units; but their distinguishing characteristics are regarded as omitted measurements, and one of their common characteristics determines the distinguishing characteristic of the new concept: the one representing their “Conceptual Common Denominator” with the existents from which they are being differentiated." -ITOE
Lastly, I would say that a measurement is a kind of characteristic. Your height and age are characteristics, different aspects of you, are they not? 

Incidentally, the "anti-measurement" reference can be found here.

Jordan


Post 81

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan wrote,
Look at what Rand says is omitted in concept formation. It's not just "measurement." According to Rand, differentiation is one of the key roles of measurement in concept formation.
Tables, for instance, are first differentiated from chairs, beds and other objects by means of the characteristic of shape, which is an attribute possessed by all the objects involved. -ITOE
What is first being differentiated? Chairs, beds, and other objects. Are these measurements? No. They are existents that have measurements.
Where does Rand say that differentiation is one of key roles of measurement in concept formation? Of course, differentiation is part of concept formation, as is measurement omission; but differentiation is not one of the key roles of measurement itself.
Also, Rand allowed a characteristic to be viewed as a measurement based on its role in concept formation:
"When concepts are integrated into a wider one, the new concept includes all the characteristics of its constituent units; but their distinguishing characteristics are regarded as omitted measurements, and one of their common characteristics determines the distinguishing characteristic of the new concept: the one representing their “Conceptual Common Denominator” with the existents from which they are being differentiated." -ITOE
The distinguishing characteristics of the constituent units are regarded as omitted measurements. In other words, they're treated the same way; that doesn't mean that their distinguishing characteristics are measurements.
Lastly, I would say that a measurement is a kind of characteristic. Your height and age are characteristics, different aspects of you, are they not?
Yes, they're different characteristics -- different aspects -- of you, but again, a characteristics is not itself a measurement; it is the basis for measurement. You measure something in terms of a particular characteristic -- height in inches, weight in pounds, etc. The characteristic is not itself the measurement.
Incidentally, the "anti-measurement" reference can be found here.
Okay, but then (contrary to your claim in Post 12) I fail to see how Rand uses measurement any differently here than in other sections of ITOE.

- Bill

Post 82

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer wrote:

Where does Rand say that differentiation is one of key roles of measurement in concept formation? Of course, differentiation is part of concept formation, as is measurement omission; but differentiation is not one of the key roles of measurement itself.

What she says is that the particulars grouped to form a concept have common characteristics, and such common characteristics differ only in their measurements. The following is her example of the concept length.

 

“If a child considers a match, a pencil, and a stick, he observes that length is the attribute they have in common, but their specific lengths differ. The difference is one of measurement. In order to form the concept ‘length’, the child’s mind retains the attribute and omits its particular measurements. In order to form the concept ‘length,’ the child's mind retains the attribute and omits its particular measurements.” (ITOE2, 11). 

The distinguishing characteristics of the constituent units are regarded as omitted measurements. In other words, they're treated the same way; that doesn't mean that their distinguishing characteristics are measurements.

 I think it is more accurate to say the Rand held the distinguishing characteristics to be measurable.


Post 83

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Bill,

Rand said: "Observe the multiple role of measurements in the process of concept-formation, in both of its two essential parts: differentiation and integration." Source.  

Gotta run. More later.
Jordan


Post 84

Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I agree with your last post. From what I can tell, you understand Rand's views. But Jordan's interpretation of them is confused and inaccurate.

Jordan, In your last post, you quoted Rand as follows: "Observe the multiple role of measurements in the process of concept-formation, in both of its two essential parts: differentiation and integration."

Yes, measurement has a role in concept formation, both in differentiation and integration, but that's different from saying that "According to Rand, differentiation is one of the key roles of measurement," which suggests that one of the purposes of measurement is differentiation.

- Bill

Post 85

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 4:01amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I think it is more accurate to say the Rand held the distinguishing characteristics to be measurable.
That's got to be what Rand meant, considering the other things that she had to say about the matter.

Folks who don't understand Rand simply need to read more of her. Rand was possibly the most accurate and purposeful writer this world has ever known. She wrote to be understood. At a Q and A session, she claimed she was the best (and hence challenged a questioner to find a writer who was her equal in this regard).

No one, to my knowledge, has been able to answer.

Ed


Post 86

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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Bill,
Jordan, In your last post, you quoted Rand as follows: "Observe the multiple role of measurements in the process of concept-formation, in both of its two essential parts: differentiation and integration."

Yes, measurement has a role in concept formation, both in differentiation and integration, but that's different from saying that "According to Rand, differentiation is one of the key roles of measurement," which suggests that one of the purposes of measurement is differentiation.
I said almost exactly what Rand said. Rand says differentiation is an essential part of the role of measurement in process formation. I basically changed the word "essential" to "key." And you can clearly see that Rand is differentiating existents (chairds, beds, and other objects), not just pounds and inches. Existents are not measurements, but rather, are things that have measurements. Again, look at what is being omitted!
Yes, they're different characteristics -- different aspects -- of you, but again, a characteristics is not itself a measurement; it is the basis for measurement. You measure something in terms of a particular characteristic -- height in inches, weight in pounds, etc. The characteristic is not itself the measurement.
You seem to have flipped my point. I'm not saying characteristics themselves are necessarily measurements. I'm saying measurements are necessarily characteristics. When I say you are 4 feet tall and 200 pounds <grin>, I'm describing some of your characteristics.

Rand's anti-measurement schpiel dealt with quantities, with "measurement" in its normal sense, e.g., pounds, inches, liters, etc. It has little to do with differentiation and integration and the part they play in concept formation.

Jordan


Post 87

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan wrote:
I said almost exactly what Rand said. Rand says differentiation is an essential part of the role of measurement in process formation.
No, you reversed it. Quoting Rand: "Observe the multiple role of measurements in the process of concept-formation, in both of its two essential parts: differentiation and integration." That says measurement plays an essential role in differentiation, which is the reverse of your statement.


Post 88

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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No it doesn't, Merlin. Rand is saying differentiation is one of the essential roles that measurement plays. She's *not* saying measurement plays an essential role in differentiation. She's saying measurement has *multiple* roles in *concept formation*, and and one of those roles includes differentiation.

But the key point I'm making is that Rand wants to omit more than mere measurements.

Jordan

Post 89

Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 2:56pmSanction this postReply
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Oh shit. Now I think you might well be right. Her use of "its" threw me off in the phrase "its two essential parts: differentiation and integration." I thought "its" was referring to measurement, but I think you're right that it refers to concept formation.

Thankfully it doesn't change my point: Rand aims to omit more than mere measurements.

Jordan
(Edited by Jordan on 1/16, 10:08am)

(Edited by Jordan on 1/16, 10:09am)


Post 90

Friday, January 16, 2009 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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Jordan, you can edit posts within 24 hours. Click on Edit right of Reply. "Threw" is the past tense of "throw."  :-)

You wrote:
Thanksfully it doesn't change me point: Rand aims to omit more than mere measurements.
I'd put this way. She aimed to omit only measurements, but failed.



Post 91

Friday, January 16, 2009 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Hi Merlin,

Homophones are my nemesis.

Your view seems reasonable to me.

Jordan

Post 92

Monday, January 19, 2009 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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"With the grasp of the (implicit) concept "unit" man reaches the conceptual level of cognition, which consists of two interrelated fields: the conceptual and the mathematical. The process of concept-formation is, in large part, a mathematical process."
My 1979 paperback copy of ITOE has this on page 8.

If you look carefully at these statements, you will see that it divides "the conceptual level of cognition" into two parts, the conceptual, and the mathematical. Formally, that is an error of categorization. The conceptual is not just one part of the conceptual. Further, mathematical knowledge should not be implied to be non-conceptual, as this statement does.

It is generally given that numbers are the result of matching sets of things. Like the blinded cyclops who picked up one pebble for every sheep that passed through his door, and used that set of pebbles again to make sure they all returned at night, a one-to-one correspondence between sets proved that the group was the same size as before, that its "number" hadn't changed.
In Mesopotamia, the number of containers of grain that a given farmer put into storage was recorded by a correspondence set of tokens, which were sealed in an envelope. If he added or subtracted measures of grain, a corresponding number of tokens was added or taken away from his envelope. After a while, the accountants made a corresponding number of marks on the outside of the envelope, so they didn't have to open it to tell how many it contained. Again, after a while, the groups of marks on the envelopes were transformed into a set of single marks that each represented  a different number of groups of marks, so, for example, lll became 3, and llll became 4, etc.
The point of reviewing this history is to see that mathematics is conceptual in its most primitive forms. The items used in matching by one-to-one correspondence have to belong to a concept before the correspondence can be made. If Cyclops sometimes added a pebble to his pile when a sheep went by, and sometimes added some sand, his efforts would be futile. If the Mesopotamian accountants sometimes added a token for a measure of grain added to the stores, and sometimes added a token for each day on which the farmer came to add grain, even though he might add two or three measures on some of these days, their accounts wouldn't be accurate. Each set for which a correspondence is made has to be defined as to type of entity. And that is a conceptual classification.

As I have said before, I think Rand's theory of concept-formation was heavily influenced by her desire to thwart the Analytic/Synthetic Dichotomy. I think this was a distorting influence, as polemics often are when they become the guiding light of theory. That speculation is neither here nor there regarding the issues, though.

The whole project of explaining concept-formation as being mathematical begs the question of how mathematical concepts themselves are formed. It might be worth noting, also, that even if mathematics were non-conceptual, its genesis would need explaining, and ought to be explained before we rely on it to explain how we form "concepts."

-more later 


Post 93

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 7:12amSanction this postReply
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Mindy wrote:
If you look carefully at these statements, you will see that it divides "the conceptual level of cognition" into two parts, the conceptual, and the mathematical. Formally, that is an error of categorization. The conceptual is not just one part of the conceptual. Further, mathematical knowledge should not be implied to be non-conceptual, as this statement does.
I disagree with this interpretation. I don't think Rand said or implied anything like the 3rd sentence. I think "distinguishes" fits better than "divides"; it is not a dichotomy. The distinction is warranted, since numbers and formulas are unlike words and sentences.


Post 94

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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How are numbers unlike concepts?

Post 95

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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How are numbers unlike concepts?
I didn't say numbers are unlike concepts, but unlike words. Numbers are quantitative concepts; most words are not.


Post 96

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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There are quantitative words (I know you said, "most words are not")
"Many" "Few" "Excessive" "Mupltiple" "Group" "Set" "Team" "Army"
All plurals of nouns are quantitative in meaning!
My claim is that there is no difference as far as being a concept, nor in how those concepts are formed.
And what difference does it make to say "concepts" or "words?" 

(Edited by Mindy Newton on 1/20, 10:53am)


Post 97

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

Then what is Rand distinguishing here: ". . .the conceptual level of cognition, which consists of two interrelated fields: the conceptual and the mathematical"? What does she take as the difference between the "conceptual" and the "mathematical"?

Jordan

Post 98

Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Mindy,

Another point about numbers is their precision. For example, "a few people" is not precise. It could mean a pretty wide numerical range, depending on the context. In contrast "5 people" or "20 people" is precise.

And what difference does it make to say "concepts" or "words?"
I can agree with Rand here. A word is an auditory or visual symbol denoting a concept. 

Jordan asked:
What does she [Rand] take as the difference between the "conceptual" and the "mathematical"?
I don't know. Given her use of "unit" before and after where she makes this comparison, it seems that she tried to exploit that word. However, she equivocated, since "unit" can mean (a) a standard of measurement or (b) a member of a set or collection.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/20, 3:41pm)


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