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Post 20

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 2:05amSanction this postReply
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Ed, it is late at night here, and I should just go to bed. But I seem to remember (or have imagined) that proper nouns (in our minds) are concepts that subsume all percepts of a single existent. The proper noun, Ayn Rand, would subsume percepts of her when she was young, when she was happy, etc. Lots of measurements omitted, but unlike other concepts, there is only one referent (even if seen many times or from many angles, etc.) Did I make that up or is in ITOE?

Post 21

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 4:05amSanction this postReply
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Dang - as if not have a big enough pile of books to go thru, ye forcing me to reread ITOE again, since been several years... [sigh]...

Post 22

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 5:53amSanction this postReply
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Measurement is qualitatively as well as quantitatively...
I have no idea what this is suppose to mean.
Besides, truly nominal categories, categories which are different from each other, but not for the same reason -- i.e., categories not "commensurable" -- would just be proper nouns, and we don't form concepts of proper nouns (we merely remember them and their relevant peculiarities).
I don't regard chocolate, vanilla and so forth - specific flavors - as nominal categories. Nor are they proper nouns. They are universals and also members of the universal flavor.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/06, 5:56am)


Post 23

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

It was late and you made that up.

:-)

I distinctly remember Rand excluding proper nouns from the conceptual realm and placing them where they belong -- in the perceptual realm. I know I could back that up with a quote, I just know I could (if pressed).

Ed


Post 24

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I don't regard chocolate, vanilla and so forth - specific flavors - as nominal categories. Nor are they proper nouns. They are universals and also members of the universal flavor.
That's right, but chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry are different from each other for the same reason (rather than for differing reasons). You see, there's this scale of 31 flavors (I know that from an ice cream shop near my house) and, on this "qualitative scale" (of the 31 flavors), there are flavors that could be ordered on at least two measurement standards, the second of which is most relevant:

Chemistry-based ordering
1) number of compounds -- or number or size of molecules or chemical bonds -- required to make the flavor

Gustation-based ordering
1) sweetness
2) sourness
3) bitterness
4) saltiness
5) umaminess (ice cream with MSG?)

The gustation-based ordering of flavors is most relevant. It not only involves taste receptors, but derives from them. It is precisely because we have precisely these five kinds of receptors that we experience the world of taste as we do. There will be added psychological experiences involved in tasting flavors -- such as nice memories -- just as there are with smelling smells.

Getting back to the point, the reason that the 31 flavors (or, perhaps, as food science advances, more than 31 flavors) are perceptually experienced by humans as being different from each other is the same reason -- "the mix" of stimulated receptors. Vanilla, for example, will stimulate a certain set of receptors to a certain degree. Other flavors stimulate a different "mix" of the same receptors.

It's because we have a certain way of tasting which involves certain receptors, that we can categorize different flavors like we do. They're all instances of "flavor" and are subsumed under that broad concept (just as you said).

This point, however, gets a little weak when we try to say that every food has a measure of sweetness (or sourness, etc) -- but only that we omit the level of sweetness when forming the concept. For example, if a food had no sweetness, then there would be nothing to omit -- integrated things being those things all possessing a trait, but only in different measure or degree. If there are foods which don't stimulate sweet (or sour, etc) receptors at all, then our basis for integrating them seems weakened.

That is the point where we differentiate more and multiply our concepts (in order to capture reality better). The broad point still stands, however, that different flavors will stimulate a different "mix" of receptors -- which is something measurable.

Ed

p.s. I realize that there's more than 31 flavors in the world (probably as many as 40 of them by now!), but it sounded "better" to make it seem like I didn't. I hope I won't be chided for dishonesty for doing that.

;-)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/06, 11:55am)


Post 25

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

It is the next day and my mind is working again. I remember disagreeing with Rand when she labeled proper nouns as perceptions.

When we recognize the entity of a current perception, "Ah, I see Joe standing by the door," we are not just associating a tag or name with what we see, we are also pulling together all of our other perceptions of Joe and subsuming them under that unique proper noun type of concept. How else would we hold this sense of identity of Joe such that is he who we see now and the same person we saw the day before, etc.

At least that was my thought.

Post 26

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,
Subjective judgments of sweetness, saltiness, etc. are not measurements. It is ranking.

The following would be true measurement. Chocolate is N1 "flavor units". Vanilla is N2 "flavor units".  Garlic is N3 "flavor units." You could add N2-N1 "flavor units" to chocolate and get vanilla. You could add N3-N1 "flavor units" to chocolate and get garlic. Of course, this is nonsense. There is no such thing as a "flavor unit". Ergo, flavor is not measureable. Q.E.D.


Post 27

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

... we are also pulling together all of our other perceptions of Joe and subsuming them under that unique proper noun type of concept. How else would we hold this sense of identity of Joe such that is he who we see now and the same person we saw the day before, etc.
The answer is that we use the perceptual powers of memory and association in order to get this "mental work" done. Think about what gets "integrated" (associated) into the memory of a person. There is no overt logic to it. Whatever the person does, says, wears, etc. gets "integrated" (associated). The reason? Simply because that person did, said, wore, etc. It's entirely existential. When the person acts "out of character" we are surprised, but we really can't blame him.

Now, if the referent of a concept acts out of character -- let's say a rock doesn't fall when you drop it, or fire turns water into ice, etc -- then we look for a culprit to blame (another entity acting behind the scenes, changed environment, etc). That's an operational difference between our conceptual and perceptual powers of awareness. While we're perceiving, anything goes -- we have to take our percepts as the unquestionable (without lapsing into naive realism, of course). We have to start with the percept and take it at face value for what it is.

However, while we're "conceiving", it's not true that "anything goes." We have to conceive of things (do concept-formation) in a very specific way. It has to be logical in order to come out right. There can't be these surprises like there is with some proper nouns. Surprises mean a mistake was made. Having a sense of identity of Joe (or someone else) feels like having a concept -- but it isn't.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/06, 3:19pm)


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Post 28

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

There is no such thing as a "flavor unit". Ergo, flavor is not measureable.
But hold on. I have this correct concept integrating things like chocolate and vanilla -- i.e., they're flavors. I got to this correct concept by differentiating chocolate, vanilla, etc. from things that don't have a flavor (i.e., things that don't stimulate human gustatory receptors). I integrated my taste sensations (after differentiating them from all other things). When you mention chocolate and vanilla as flavors, I know what you are talking about. In fact, because I completely understand what you are talking about, I could even name more of them -- knowing beforehand that I'll be correct (even before checking it out with you).

I have a concept of flavor. The conceptual common denominator -- "reducible to a unit of measurement" -- is the taste. The unit of measurement behind a thing's taste is the precise mix of activation of human taste buds. You seem to want to derive a unit from each percept -- from each taste or each flavor -- but that's what Steve just did (attempting to treat a perceived "bare particular" like it was a concept).

Isn't it?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/06, 3:42pm)


Post 29

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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Am I MIA?
A quick comment on the exchange between Ed and Robert and Merlin just previous to this: do you see how a question about measurements turned into a statement about what was measureable? To say that what has been ommitted is measureable is not the same as to show how it is a measurement.

Back to my own place:
I have said I disagree with the theory of measurement-ommission, both that "measurements" correctly describes everything that ever gets ommitted in forming a concept, and that it works as it is supposed to (and it is my own theory of how it is "supposed" to work) in the Objectivist epistemology.

Another problem I have is with Rand's statements that a concept "means" everything about all the individuals it properly names, including what is entirely unknown about such individuals. Again, I believe the purpose of this formulation is to escape the Analytic/Synthetic dichotomy. It would succeed in doing that, to the best of my knowledge, but it is insupportable on its face.
Accidental qualities of a thing can change from time to time (Alert--not using "trait" "quality," etc. in special senses,) and they certainly vary from individual to individual. The hair color of a particular person is an ommitted trait, but, according to Rand's statement, is part of the meaning of the concept, "person." Sex is an ommitted characteristic of a person, but is part of the meaning of the concept. Note that while this does assure that a sentence saying some person is male, or blond will contain in the subject the meaning of the predicate, it also means that the subject will contradict the predicate.
It also says that our "meaning" exceeds our knowledge, which doesn't make sense.
Additionally, the claim that the meaning of the predicate of a true sentence was contained in the meaning of the subject, as "ommitted measurements" invalidates the purpose of thought itself. If we are not adding any information in predicating something of a subject, there is no point in the exercise.

It seems to me that Rand didn't want to allow concepts to be genuinely abstract, this due to the opening it would give to the Analytic/Synthetic dichotomy. One way to give the same protection is to recognize that grammar plays a role in sentential meaning beyond the semantic contribution of the terms used.
We turn a noun into a reference by adding an article such as "a" or "the" or by pluralising it: "Dogs eat meat." It is a standard precept of linguistics that terms cannot, on their own, refer. 
It is never, then, a concept, on its own, that is responsible for the meaning of the subject of a sentence. As the subject of a sentence, a concept comes to do something new, to refer. It may refer to a single individual of the kind, or to some, or to all of them, but as a reference, it indicates the thing(s) in toto, just as pointing with a finger would.
When the meaning of the subject of a sentence is a reference, it is determinate. It is a key aspect of human cognition that we refer through abstractions.


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Post 30

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy,

Am I MIA?
According to me you are. I haven't received any response from you regarding my post 16 or it's predecessor (post 7). And the response that I did get from you (to my post 5) was dismissive because you weren't comfortable answering.

To say that what has been ommitted is measureable is not the same as to show how it is a measurement.
I see how these two are not the exact same thing, but when Rand spoke about omitting measurements, she didn't mean explicit measurements (such as the actual length of a pencil, measured out with a ruler and then omitted). You seem to think that some sort of measuring process is required in order to omit measurements, but that's not how Rand outlined it. This may turn out to be merely a tangent, but let me know if you would like a Rand quote showing this to be true.

Another problem I have is with Rand's statements that a concept "means" everything about all the individuals it properly names, including what is entirely unknown about such individuals. Again, I believe the purpose of this formulation is to escape the Analytic/Synthetic dichotomy. It would succeed in doing that, to the best of my knowledge, but it is insupportable on its face.
I know this'll sound ironic, but I think you're using the Analytic/Synthetic dichotomy in order to get to the evaluation that 'concepts mean everything about their referents, known and unknown' is unsupportable. You explain:

The hair color of a particular person is an ommitted trait, but, according to Rand's statement, is part of the meaning of the concept, "person." Sex is an ommitted characteristic of a person, but is part of the meaning of the concept. Note that while this does assure that a sentence saying some person is male, or blond will contain in the subject the meaning of the predicate, it also means that the subject will contradict the predicate.
I don't follow. You continue:

It also says that our "meaning" exceeds our knowledge, which doesn't make sense.
I find that the opposite doesn't make sense. For instance, if our meaning never exceeded our knowledge, then our body of knowledge couldn't grow. Take a rudimentary chemistry analogy.

Let's say we've got some yellow, smelly powder. Initially we'll call it our yellow, smelly powder. When someone asks what we mean by that we point to our yellow, smelly powder. Later on, we chemically analyze it as "sulfur." When someone asks what we mean by "sulfur," we tell them it's what we had previously been referring to as yellow, smelly powder. At this point, the person asks us if we've meant the same thing all along back when we were referring to the powder as "yellow, smelly" and now -- as we refer to the powder as "sulfur."

Well tell them we meant the same thing the whole time. Do you see how meaning has to exceed knowledge -- in order for knowledge to grow (as it has)?

Ed


Post 31

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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If you use "meaning" only in the sense of referent, you can get an example such as yours. However, if you use "meaning" in the broader sense, which includes, for example, propositional meaning, it doesn't work. If I asked you, "Do you mean you have sulfur?" when you first identify your yellow powder, you would have to deny that that was what you meant.

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Post 32

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,
I don't need references on that. Does the difference of explicit/implicit measurements make any difference as to whether what is ommitted is a measurement or is measurable?
About determinate conceptual meaning:
The idea that a concept means everything about its possible referents is completely unworkable. The A/S dichotomy aside, a determinate conceptual meaning would be self-contradictory. "Dog" would mean being a German Shepard and not being a German Shepard, sitting up and laying down, belonging to me and belonging to no-one, etc.
If simply by using a concept in the subjet of a sentence, you introduced everything about all its referents, what of new import would there be to introduce in the predicate?


Post 33

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 11:03pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, you are right, proper nouns are a special case of concepts. Rand was wrong on this and I have seen duels fought over what is integrated, if anything, in the concept of a proper noun.

Post 34

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy,

If you use "meaning" only in the sense of referent, you can get an example such as yours. However, if you use "meaning" in the broader sense, which includes, for example, propositional meaning, it doesn't work.
For concept-formation, I use "meaning" only in the sense of referent. Rand did, too. In fact, it wouldn't be appropriate, when examining or evaluating concept-formation, to use "propositional meaning" -- that'd be a form of Wittgensteinism. It may be okay for us to mean different things by the same words sometimes, but it is not okay for us to form concepts from mere colloquialisms. Here's Peikoff on this:

Since a word is a symbol for a concept, it has no meaning apart from the content of the concept it symbolizes. And since a concept is an integration of units, it has no content or meaning apart from its units.

The meaning of a concept consists of the units—the existents—which it integrates, including all the characteristics of these units.

Observe that concepts mean existents, not arbitrarily selected portions of existents. There is no basis whatever—neither metaphysical nor epistemological, neither in the nature of reality nor of a conceptual consciousness—for a division of the characteristics of a concept’s units into two groups, one of which is excluded from the concept’s meaning.
from:
http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/meaning.html


Ed


Post 35

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy,

Does the difference of explicit/implicit measurements make any difference as to whether what is ommitted is a measurement or is measurable?
I think it provides an equivalence. Everything measurable is a potential "measurement."

The A/S dichotomy aside, a determinate conceptual meaning would be self-contradictory. "Dog" would mean being a German Shepard and not being a German Shepard, sitting up and laying down, belonging to me and belonging to no-one, etc.
Again, ironic, but I think you are appealing to the A/S dichotomy here. This is just like the case of Aristotle's allegory of predicting the potential "sea battle" tomorrow. The truth of the matter is, in order to have the concept "Dog" -- we don't need to know German Shepards, sitting and laying, and whether the thing belongs to you or me or anyone.

If simply by using a concept in the subje[c]t of a sentence, you introduced everything about all its referents, what of new import would there be to introduce in the predicate?
This question reads like a rhetorical parlor game. Wittgenstein should be smiling on this. I'm going to hold off on answering this one, and give pause to see if anyone else takes the "bait."

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/06, 11:20pm)


Post 36

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 11:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Steve, you are right, proper nouns are a special case of concepts. Rand was wrong on this and I have seen duels fought over what is integrated, if anything, in the concept of a proper noun.
[sigh]

Ed


Post 37

Wednesday, January 7, 2009 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
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Ed T. wrote:

The unit of measurement behind a thing's taste is the precise mix of activation of human taste buds.

This begs the question. A chemical mix (vaguely) explains the taste, but a chemical mix is not a unit of measurement.

 

You seem to want to derive a unit from each percept -- from each taste or each flavor -- but that's what Steve just did (attempting to treat a perceived "bare particular" like it was a concept). Isn't it?

No. I challenge you to designate a unit based on one flavor and then tell me how many units of it are in other flavors.  That is the nature of measurement, e.g. length. Start with one length, e.g. one inch, and then identify other lengths in terms of it.  For example, a pencil is 6 inches long, a shoelace 24 inches long, and a sheet of paper 8.5x11 inches.



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Post 38

Wednesday, January 7, 2009 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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www.fiu.edu/~otweb/courses/levels_of_measurement.htm

Your 'nature of measurement' is not the only one...
(Edited by robert malcom on 1/07, 9:38am)


Post 39

Wednesday, January 7, 2009 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I'd rather you told me to eff off than that you *sigh* at me. Are you a 13 girl who can't wait to vote for Obama? Because that is how that sounds. *Sigh*.

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