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Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 2:53amSanction this postReply
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In Live Free or Die, Steve Wolfer wrote:
And now I'm wondering if an anarchist can ever really celebrate strong steps in the direction of a limited government. Because the simple fact is that chaos and collapse are closer to the real heart of anarchism just as intellectual masturbation over how many protective agencies can dance on the head of pin are closer to the real mind of anarchy than having the popular culture actually start on the path to understanding individual rights and rational egoism - and in ways that result in actual political change. But maybe that's just the way it looks to me.






You mischaracterize me and misstate my opinions.

1. Money talks; bullshit walks.  For three years, I paid my dues to the Michigan GOP while I held office for two years (2006-2008) as a Republican Party precinct delegate from Ann Arbor Township to the county caucuses and to the state convention.  I volunteered for the party booth for the annual Art Fair in 2007.  I also did the same for the Green Party 2007 and for the Libertarian Party 2009.  In 2007-2009, I donated several hundred dollars to various candidates, most of them actually Democrats whose candidacy I supported because to me, politics is not about party, but about character and not about ideology but about personality.  For instance, in a local Democrat primary, I donated to a challenger who is a self-employed carpenter because the incumbant has a tradition of government employment.  For two years 2007-2009, I paid my full dues to the Michigan Libertarian Party.  In the 20th century, I attended state conventions and ran for office as an LP candidate.

For three years -- one partial term; one full term; 2005-2008 -- I served on the City/County community corrections advisory board.  I was appointed to that by the county commissioners.

So, I do understand and appreciate the grayscale of political involvement.  I am an objectivist, not an absolutist. 

2. My advocacy of what we commonly call "anarchy" is nothing more or less than the extension of the free market into important personal services of defense and adjudication.  You certainly must grant that you have the right to hire protection for yourself and you certainly must agree that in the case of any disagreement with another person, you have the right to find a common solution, even if that means hiring a common arbitrator. 

3.  I started a "Rational Government" thread here and no one responded.  Objectivist legal theory is woefully underdeveloped.  All we have is a set of principles. Everyone knows that the Constitution contains "contradictions" but no one has resolved them.  There are other proposed constitutions out there, such as Michael Oliver's "Constitution for a Frree Society."  No one has tallied and critiqued any of them.  (If so, please post a link.  We would all benefit.)  I assume that you are opposed to the direct election of Senators and prefer the old method of state legislatures chosing their senators.  That's fine. But what about federal judges?  They are appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate, but is that objectively appropriate?  John Locke had the foreign office as a separate branch of government. Does that idea have no merit?  Should we not consider electing the Secretary of State and if not, what is the objective standard for deciding.

My point is that you have absolutely no idea what you want to move toward.  You only know what you are against.  You are against "big government."  Fine.  But what does that mean?  If one of the duties of government is to protect us from invasion, then should the government control (own, operate, regulate) all the ports?  (Should they control aviation and shipping and roads into and out of the country?)   You never say.  No one does.  No one can.  The idea of a "rational government" is like a "rational religion."  But go ahead and try if you think you can because, as 1. above, I am willing and able to partipate in my community to help make it a better place.  Got any suggestions? ... and what have you done, beside watching television?

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/27, 3:14am)


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Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

A person cannot truly be an Objectivist and an anarchist at the same time. Saying so, don't make it so.

1. The fact that you were active in the Republican party, the libertarian party, the democratic party, and the green party just illustrates the point I made. If all of this occurred before you were an anarchist, it isn't germane to this discussion. If you were an anarchist and an active part of various political parties I'll leave it up to you to dress up the idea of a person who wants to end government while working inside of political parties; parties that are founded on the idea of having a government; parties whose primary purpose is electing people to populate government. And whose main differences are in the laws that would be proposed. (which leads me to #2)

2. You say that you only advocate the extension of the free market into defense and adjudication. But you are opposed to a single set of laws for a given jurisdiction. That makes your position into one of guaranteed chaos and collapse into rule by brute force. You totally ignore that the very phrase "free market" presumes the enforcement of individual rights, which depend upon a set of laws (a single set) that define individual rights. Without that it isn't free of force, fraud or theft, and there can't be market-based competition only competition in force. That is where the intellectual masturbation comes in - watching anarchists attempt to describe how a free market exists without having an enforcement of individual rights, and they say it will somehow evolve. (There is kind of a similarity to the Marxists with their description of a mandated historical evolution of socialism.)

3. When did you look inside my head and determine that I have absolutely no idea what I want to move forward. Could you be more condescending? Let's start with the idea that there needs to one set of laws that make use of the concept of jurisdiction to consistently apply individual rights. The fact that I have not written anything about ports or any of the other details you mentioned is not evidence in opposition to my statement, nor support for anarchy.

Your last insulting statement is, "... and what have you done, beside watching television?" Well, for a start I've managed to understand that Objectivism and anarchy are mutually exclusive. Let me know when you reach that rather elementary understanding.

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Friday, January 29, 2010 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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For about 1000 years, church and state in Europe were two overlapping institutions.  We have many such examples today, as perhaps no society is truly monolithic, though it has been tried, by communists for instance.
 
G4S and Securitas employ tens of thousands of guards in dozens of places ("countries") serving hundreds of clients. 
 
Ad hoc tribunals and reconciliation councils operate across national borders, as do relief agencies, such as the Red Cross and Red Crescent and Medicins sans Frontiers (Doctors Without Borders).   The councils and tribunals could be accused of making up laws as they go along, but, at best, they are drawing on a wide range of legal traditions to forge new solutions where old ones plainly failed.  South Africa and Rwanda are two examples of those successes.  Uganda might be another case. 
 
Here at home, if you read the fine print, you will see that the contracts you sign are to be interpreted according to the laws of some state, often some other state than the one you live in, or in which the other party resides.  Credit cards are a common example.  Your local bank issues a card from a company in North Dakota which is actually encorporated in Delaware.  Theoretically, you can enter the agreement by picking your preferred state, though in reality, you (as the far weaker party) do not get that opportunity.  If you were General Motors buying mufflers from Walker or brake pads from Siemens, you would.
 
This is how the world works.  Nothing is dancing on the head of a pin. It is not the case that if you are born in Countryland the laws of Countryland define all of your economic interactions because you only trade with people in Countryland. 
Do Multinationals Restrain the State?
10 January 2007 | Peter Klein |


I referred early to Ralph Raico’s essay on the European Miracle, the unprecedented, long-term rise in living standards that began in late-medieval Europe. As discussed there, the consensus of mainstream scholars such as Rosenberg and Birdzell, Mokyr, North, Landes, and Weingast is that Europe grew rich because unlike more centralized Eastern civilizations, European political and social life was controlled by a complex, decentralized mosaic of institutions and organizations, each of which placed limits on the other. 

We all know that multinationals or transnationals (for now I’m ignoring the distinction) are major economic forces. Some stats at hand:
• Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are multinational corporations.
• According to estimates by UNCTAD, the universe of multinationals now spans some 77,000 parent companies with over 770,000 foreign affiliates. In 2005, these foreign affiliates generated an estimated $4.5 trillion in value added, employed some 62 million workers and exported goods and services valued at more than $4 trillion.
• Inflows of foreign direct investment were $916 billion in 2005, a substantial increase over the prior couple of years, largely due to a rise in cross-border M&As. The value of cross-border M&As rose by 88% over 2004, to $716 billion, and the number of deals rose by 20%, to 6,134.

From the archives of ORGANIZATIONS AND MARKETS

 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/29, 4:46am)


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Post 3

Friday, January 29, 2010 - 5:02amSanction this postReply
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Obviously, we disagree on what Objectivism is.  Without the capital-O, objectivism is rational-empiricism.  The problem comes when that word starts a sentence and we get confused with the philosophy of Ayn Rand.  That Objectivism is also objectivism as rational-empiricism.  However, within that framework of Objectivism, not all claims made by all self-identified Objectivists are supported by all self-identified small-o objectivists.  I offer the political views of Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins as examples of objectivisms different from Objectivism.

Then, there is the problem of Ayn-Rand-ism as distinct from Objectivism.

RoR is not the only Objectivist message board friendly to homosexuals, whom Ayn Rand thought to be disgusting.  Presumably, you would have no problem with an woman claiming to be an Objectivist who also claimed to want to run for the Presidency of the USA.  Ayn Rand felt differently.  "Felt" is the right word for that.  Some of Ayn Rand's opinions derived from feelings which she justified with philosophy.  That is not objectivism.  In fact, some Objectivists say that such is not Objectivism.  They actually like to listen to Mozart and Beethoven.

I do not know if you listen to Mozart.  I do.  Does that disqualify me from being an Objectivist in your view? 


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Friday, January 29, 2010 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, Responding to post #2.

I repeat... Dancing on the head of a pin. Nothing you said alters the facts that in every situation you mentioned there is a single set of laws governing any specific situation. That is the nature of jurisdiction.

Michael said, "For about 1000 years, church and state in Europe were two overlapping institutions. We have many such examples today, as perhaps no society is truly monolithic, though it has been tried, by communists for instance."

So what. Are you saying that there were not laws that applied within a given geographic boundary? Are you saying that state did not enforce any of its laws whether or not people wanted (or subscribed) to that enforcement?
----------------

Michael, you said, "G4S and Securitas employ tens of thousands of guards in dozens of places ("countries") serving hundreds of clients."

Are you saying that they make up their own laws, and those laws conflict with the laws of the country and that people can choose which law making body to belong to? Because I never said that security or police or military couldn't be contracted out by public or private concerns.
----------------

You said, "...if you read the fine print, you will see that the contracts you sign are to be interpreted according to the laws of some state, often some other state than the one you live in, or in which the other party resides."

If a party violates the contract, they can approach the court and seek a cure. Jurisdiction will determine which kind of court and which state, etc. There will only be one set of laws that determine the legal interpretation of that contract. No competing sets of laws.
------------------

It is like you are dancing about so frantically you haven't noticed that you did nothing to invalidate my arguments.


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Friday, January 29, 2010 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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I do not know if you listen to Mozart. I do. Does that disqualify me from being an Objectivist in your view?


Yes, I sometimes listen Mozart. No, that doesn't disqualify you.

But being an anarchist does.

Post 6

Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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Maybe the problem is that I do not understand what you mean by "competition." 

I can pack a lunch, stop at the co-op, hit Whole Foods and then MacDonald's before arriving to start my day on campus.  They all compete.  I can only be in one place at a time. Own all the cars you want, you can only drive one at a time.  So, too, with courts.

When an ad hoc reconciliation tribunal meets, they draw on their combined expertise to offer a jurisdiction that others will accept.  It could be a UN Tribunal or a grassroots effort.  The international tribunal at the Hague does the same thing. Europeans (and others) prefer what they call "civil law" in which everything is written down and the judge merely applies the law to the facts in the case.  The Anglo-American tradition is "bench-made law" in which broad legislation is interpreted by a judge.  Since there is no previously agreed upon body of law or enforcement, these tribunals are fluid.  If you look at the evidentiary facts in Rwanda, Darfur and Kosovo, you see three different circumstances.  T

he International Criminal Court at the Hague charged Sudan's president Omar al-Bashir with genocide, even though the UN commission could not make that finding (oddly enough).  But Omar al-Bashir will be in one court in one place in one time to face one prosecutor on one set of charges.

Omar al-Bashir should have surrended to the UN when he had the chance. 

He was in the same situation as a bank robber who insists that his crime is a state offense, while the FBI claims it is federal.  There are many such examples, which is why we have the cliche about "not making a federal case out of it."  You can negotiate the laws you will be subject to, even as you are being indicted under them.  Sooner or later, one person comes to one court in one place at one time.

You and I could do business and perhaps predictably, it might not go well.  We could run a betting pool for the Super Bowl, say: point spreads, bets on field goals or conversions or interceptions, and all of that.  Our agreement would be unlawful and illegal in most places.  However, we have a common peer group here.  You might claim that my mistake in artithmetic cost you money.  The argument might run 214 posts before we agreed on one or more people to find a balance for us.  People here might compete for the opportunity to adjudicate based on price-performance.  Then, it might take another 300 messages.  We would have to establish a set of rules and procedures and outcomes.  Whatever happens, you and I can only be in one place at one time, subject to one set of circumstances, even though we would be engaged in an anarcho-whatever different from the law of any state we live in.

People come to all kinds non-legal, illegal, non-lawful, un-lawful agreements all the time.  Oddly enough, a criminology professor at my university who retired before I arrived sold a manuscript to Loompanics.  Dr. Stuart Henry wrote, The Hidden Economy. His thesis was that capitalist oppression forces the poor to work for each other illegally as auto mechanics, barbers, plumbers, and all of the other necessary trades for a community.  If you have a disagreement with an unlicensed plumber, you cannot take that to a court.  This is not theory.  This is how the world works. 

 It works like this for multinational corporations, also.  They pick and choose their jurisdictions.  They even have the ability to write whole volumes of agreements that do not exist as law.  The Uniform Commercial Code is another example.  Unless you specify UCC in the contract, you cannot come into court waving it later.  But you do have the option.  You could take the US UCC and make it the framework for an agreement to buy worms in Tierre del Fuego and sell them in the Hebrides, carried on a Liberian freighter.  But if you have a problem, you can only be in one court at one time.

If you say that these are not examples of competition, then I am at a loss to understand what is.


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Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Reading your last post it appears that you are comfortable with government having jurisdiction with their sets of laws that apply to a given geographical area under different jurisdictional conditions.

Is that what you are saying? In your last post you danced about this way and that, with your descriptions of McDonalds, the International Criminal Court at the Hague, the FBI versus the states, and football betting. In the end, it looked like you are really not calling for a change. Because of all of those different forms of what you call competition in the law, then you really aren't an anarchist - you are okay with the state of New York or California, or Arizona, or the United States or this or that county or city having statutory laws that are enforced... Is that right? Or did you dance about in ways that really didn't answer the questions?

Are you opposed to having a set of laws based upon individual rights that take precedence over all else and are enforced within a jurisdiction?

Do you acknowledge that you can not have a free market without the protection of individual rights? And if that is so, then there is NO free market within which competition can work to bring about your anarchist utopia where you pretend that the market place will provide the laws that protect individual rights.

You started off your post by stating that you might not understand what I meant by competition. You are right. Competition can be free or not. That is competition can occur in an environment that does not permit the use of force, fraud or theft... or not. Free market competition is the set of voluntary associations and actions that occur when individual rights are described by laws that are enforced. Anarchy is a condition where there are no such restrictions and thus permit force and fraud and theft to compete in that unfree market (not free of force, fraud and theft). That is the aspect of competition that you do not understand.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 1/30, 8:15am)


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Post 8

Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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Steve, allow me to work through this without "tiger stripes" if possible. 

In the first place, an-archy is like a-theism, in that the opposite claim is granted.  And by analogy to a-theism, Carl Sagan was an atheist, but he searched for extraterrestrial intelligent life.  You must know the Arthur C. Clarke story "Sentinel." But even if superior beings took an interest in Earth, that does not make Mohammed the Prophet of God. As destructive as religion is, nonetheless within the institution of religion, there are some nice people, Quakers, Buddhists, Sufis. Objectivists nod to the scholastic tradition within Catholicism, even though Objectivists are necessarily atheists.  So, too, with this problem.

We project ourselves on the past too easily.  I believe that when the first cities were forming, language was primitive, writing did not exist (counting past three did not exist), people no longer had the continuity of kin, affine and tribe, where you grew up with the people around you.  In the cities, conflicts came because people did not agree on the rules.  So Hammurabi -- Gilgamesh; someone -- laid them down.  (The Code of Hammurabi was only uncovered about 1890, in fact.)  In Athens, when the assembly voted, the new law was painted on a board and if no objections ensued, eventually, what was painted on a board became cut in stone.  We still use that phrase to mean a permanent agreement. 

The historical developments of governments and laws also have rationalist explanations.  Just as carpenters and masons knew the empirical rules of geometry before Euclid developed rationalist geometry, so, too, is there a difference between the actual historical development of law and the rationalist theories of government proposed by Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, and Locke.

To argue that every society has had government, therefore, we must have geographic monopolies of coercive force to enable law, is to argue that every culture has religion, therefore we must have temples operated by holy interlocutors who interpret the will of the gods (God) and take our pleas to God (the gods).  One consequence of the Protestant Reformation was the now widespread acceptance of the idea that each of us can speak to God directly; and ultimately, it led to atheism.  Read Francis Bacon's essays: atheism was alive and well in the 16th century. 

You can have morality without religion.  You can have law without government.

Government has been a traditional institution for the enforcment of law, just as religion as been the traditional institution for the enforcement of morality.  The relationship between Church and State is another issue entirely -- and if you think we separated them, CSPAN can show you the morning prayers in the House and Senate.
  • If we do not all follow the same catechism, how will you know what morality to expect from the next person you meet? 
  • If we do not have one geographic monopoly for the enforcement of law, how will you know what contracts are valid?
The answer is that morality has nothing to do with eating fish on Friday or not eating cows or not eating pigs or not mixing meat and diary.  Law has nothing to do with geography. 

Now, it is true, that if you eat pork you can get trichinosis and if you eat certain shellfish, you can die,  and if you eat your cows today, you will not have milk tomorrow and if you marry someone who is not a virgin, you can get a sexually transmitted disease.  It is also true that -- as you fear -- if anyone and everyone does whatever they want, causelessly on a whim, including coercion, then contract, property, and all the rest are impossible.

It is true that living a good life by Catholic doctrine will make you much happier than wantonly engaging in all Seven Deadly Sins.  Gluttony and sloth are not Objectivist virtues, even if greed is.  So, too, is life in America much better than most people in most times and places could have dreamed of and our limited constitutional government is an important part of that.   America was founded explicitly and publicly on a declaration of natural rights, which governments are created to protect.  By the same token, a couple of years ago, I heard the Dalai Lama teach.  It was all right.  Someone asked, "I  am farther down the spiritual path than my spouse and communication is difficult."  And the Dalai Lama said, "Divorce is always an option.... [laughter from audience] ... but perhaps understanding is better."  How can you argue with that?

I have no argument with geographic-based rights-protecting legal systems... except that as I am not a Buddhist, neither am I a Geographist.  In other words, Buddhism comes with cultural baggage that makes science, technology, trade and commerce, and general material improvement difficult or even impossible.  So, too, does the idea of a geographic monopoly on retaliatory force in support of law prevent material betterment through trade, commerce, technology and science.

In the current "John Stossel" topic started by TSI, I mentioned his being on The View.  On that segment, he said that if bankers do not like America's law, they can -- and will -- do business in Singapore.  They can take their money elsewhere and we on RoR have touted John Fredriksen.  The reality is that businesses -- people, really; people who care about their well-being -- here and now in our world, shop for geographies.  That is just one kind of competition for law as a product or service.

There are many others.  We have several commonly-employed modes for creating agreements according to what you call "an-archy."  Rather than giving even more examples, let me ask you: 
  • What is there about law that requires geography? 
  • Cannot two people distant from each other agree on a common set of rules and also agree upon an enforcement mechanism?  
  • As with the example of you and me taking bets on the Super Bowl, can two people in the same place have an extra-legal contract, enforceable by custom?


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Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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MEM: "What is there about law that requires geography?"

I've been wondering about this question myself. You touch on some ideas about geographical location that I recently read in Isabel Paterson's God of the Machine. I read her arguments about geography-based government and "dynamos" with the modern concepts of random-access memory, fractalization, and "the world wide web" in mind; some think her tech analogy is outdated now, but it seems like she anticipated some of these arguments...I'm curious what your thoughts are on her arguments in this regard...

(e.g.," His only safety is to retain for himself at all times a fixed standing ground on which he may resist firmly; and there is no such standing ground except land he owns himself. Other- wise his vote actually deprives him of his natural power, in- stead of enabling him to exercise it."

"The one problem which may be said to have arisen from the dynamic economy is what is called the labor problem. Be- cause the dynamic economy creates unprecedented means of mobility and a fair prospect of finding a livelihood almost anywhere, the great majority of people have forgotten the need of a physical base for security."

"It is not only the "workingman" who overlooks this primary and unalterable relation- ship of man to the earth, the function of private ownership in land—which goes back to the simple fact that a human body is a solid object…"

"The action is that of measured extension from a permanent base, so it must be attached to immovable local property. Liquid capital will not do.* These qualifications are moral as well as material, being all within the competence of the individual; a responsible person can fulfill them by his own choice and efforts. But it is absolutely necessary that the power to designate qualifications should also be in the state. If the Federal government has power to fix or alter any particular, even negatively, it has the ultimate full power of fixing all requirements by particulars. And a defect running through the whole structure is much more grave than a localized error.*")

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 1/31, 7:33am)


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Post 10

Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you said,
"...an-archy is like a-theism, in that the opposite claim is granted. And by analogy to a-theism, Carl Sagan was an atheist, but he searched for extraterrestrial intelligent life. You must know the Arthur C. Clarke story "Sentinel." But even if superior beings took an interest in Earth, that does not make Mohammed the Prophet of God. As destructive as religion is, nonetheless within the institution of religion, there are some nice people, Quakers, Buddhists, Sufis. Objectivists nod to the scholastic tradition within Catholicism, even though Objectivists are necessarily atheists. So, too, with this problem."
As best I can tell, given the context of this thread, you are implying that you can be an anarchist and a nice guy and you can be an anarchist and an Objectivist. The first isn't being debated... I suspect that you really are a nice guy. But the point being debated here is that just as Objectivists are are necessarily atheists, they are also necessarily minarchists.
-------------------

You said,
"The historical developments of governments and laws also have rationalist explanations. Just as carpenters and masons knew the empirical rules of geometry before Euclid developed rationalist geometry, so, too, is there a difference between the actual historical development of law and the rationalist theories of government proposed by Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, and Locke."
Yes, true. Our capacity to reason lets us grasp principles of evolution as they work in that historical context. We can see the functional elements, the aspects of cause and effect in human affairs. Reason, of necessity, includes volition which by its nature allows us to be a first cause in our actions. Thus we have these two elements that we watch shaping our history - people in reaction to ideas not understood or imporoperly understood - i.e., the primitive animal in reaction to its social context. And the power of ideas and the progression of reason and knowledge - a competition of ideas and the effects of volition. Both shaping history at the same time.
-----------------------

You said,
"You can have morality without religion. You can have law without government."
In the context of this debate, you cannot have law without government. In a broader definition of the word law, you can have different kinds of laws - like religious law, or like "laying down the law to your employee" or many other examples. But we all know that isn't the same as the law that is backed by force and which might be based upon individual rights, or might be violating individual rights. And if we have two or more entities that set up laws that conflict, laws that are enforced at gun point, and there is not a guaranteed way to resolve these conflicts that we have anarchy - competing mobs - tribal war lords - gangs - civil war - rule of force.
-------------------------

You said,
"Law has nothing to do with geography."
That is so wrong. Historically and practically, law has a great deal to do with geography. Law that is backed by force - the kind that we are discussing when we are talking about governments and anarchy - has three major components: 1) The statutes or legal descriptions, i.e., the laws, 2) a concrete situation that the law is to be applied to, and 3) the principles used to apply the law, i.e., jurisdiction.

It is like knowledge in general. You have principles and you have a context. It is like epistemology where we come to understand the hierarchical nature of knowledge and the use of logic.

Jurisdiction is how those many, and often complex, sets of laws are parsed to find those that apply to a given situation. Geography is one of the primary jurisdictional contexts. Drawing a line in dirt to indicate which side of the cave is mine and which is yours or working out international treaties to obtain agreement on where a nation's fishing rights obtain - these are jurisdictional rules of geography without which one cannot have the needed monopoly over the exercise of force that is needed to protect individual rights.

This parsing business is really important. If someone does something that I find very offensive, I will start parsing: Am I right to upset with this act? Epistemological - Am I right on the facts? Psychological - Am I overreacting? Moral - Am I in the right? Political - Are my rights being violated? Legal - Is this a situation where a governmental law exists that will protect my rights?

If my next door neighbors tree is dropping leaves in my yard, I won't end that process above by looking into Lithuanian fishing rights, Catholic liturgy, or the Elks' Club's Rules of Order. Once I have decided via my most basic parsing that I want to use the law, geography matters.
----------------------

Michael, when you say that a banker is leaving New York to do business in Singapore because the laws are better for him, that is not competition in a free market. You keep dropping the "...in a free market" off of your description. If you run for your life from an ax wielding psychopath are you shopping for a more competitive environment? The bankers in New York are being deprived of the right to make some voluntary agreements. That isn't competition it is coercion. If you permit coercion you no longer have a free market. You will end up with competition for the most effective use of force and fraud and theft. That is the opposite of a free market - it is just a war between tribes or gangs. Notice that geography is needed in your example for the banker to even be able to flee. With fully implemented global anarchy you will complete the destruction by eliminating boundaries and there will be no place to flee to.

Individual rights cannot be protected properly without a government and a person cannot be an Objectivist and an anarchist.


Post 11

Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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"This parsing business is really important. If someone does something that I find very offensive, I will start parsing: Am I right to upset with this act? Epistemological - Am I right on the facts? Psychological - Am I overreacting? Moral - Am I in the right? Political - Are my rights being violated? Legal - Is this a situation where a governmental law exists that will protect my rights?

If my next door neighbors tree is dropping leaves in my yard, I won't end that process above by looking into Lithuanian fishing rights, Catholic liturgy, or the Elks' Club's Rules of Order. Once I have decided via my most basic parsing that I want to use the law, geography matters."

!

Post 12

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
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Steve, I am not sure why (or whether) you chose to deflect or decline the analogy between religion and government.  In 25 words or less, I believe that just as religion is an attempt at a metaphysical explanation for morality (which philosophy replaced), so, too, is government an attempt at a moral explanation for law (which capitalism replaced).  I understand that you do not agree.
SW: As best I can tell, given the context of this thread, you are implying that you can be an anarchist and a nice guy and you can be an anarchist and an Objectivist. The first isn't being debated... I suspect that you really are a nice guy. But the point being debated here is that just as Objectivists are are necessarily atheists, they are also necessarily minarchists.
Well, yes, I like you, too, or we would not be having this discussion.  So, that's nice all the way around. Last night, I was reading Hayek's introductory comments at the first Mt. Pelerin Meeting.  Not able to attend, but invited, was Walter Lippman, widely regarded then as an important liberal thinker, along with Mises, Friedman, the Irvington-on-Hudson folks and many others.  Hayek said that the reason for the meeting was to bring people together who shared a common fundamental philosophy in a forum so that they would not need to constantly argue those fundamentals but could work at a higher level. I see that as important to RoR.  And sometimes we need to discuss fundamentals from a shared perspective.

  • If government is necessary to capitalism, how could trade cross borders unless government first expanded into that next territory?  How could strangers ever come to terms?  The Phoenicians were not the first, but were probably the best at "dumb-barter" negotiating price without a common language, to say nothing of lacking a common law.
  • Are you asserting that just as steam power was necessary to the industrial revolution, that government was necessary for capitalist law?  If so, what changed?  I mean, we had governments for 8,000 years and laws even longer. 
  • Are you asserting that government was an invention to transmit law, that this invention was then and remains now the most efficient means of doing so?  Clearly, not just any government would do?  Or would it?  I mean, in reality, we could elect the secretary of state, right?  So, as I mentioned several times, you can claim that we need "government" but you are never specific.  Though we all seem to agree on the general value of the US Constitution, you are not happy with the income tax or the direct election of Senators, yet we have law.

JM: "I've been wondering about this question myself. You touch on some ideas about geographical location that I recently read in Isabel Paterson's God of the Machine. I read her arguments about geography-based government and "dynamos" with the modern concepts of random-access memory, fractalization, and "the world wide web" in mind; some think her tech analogy is outdated now, but it seems like she anticipated some of these arguments...I'm curious what your thoughts are on her arguments in this regard..."
Well, it is true that fixed place civilization allowed the accumulation of material wealth.  Nomads are limited.  So, yes, it may be that geography is important.  On the other hand, place may not be necessary for everyone in all contexts.  In other words, merchants live by transport.  While they do go from place to place, they are, after all, going.  They do not have place.  Yet, they require law for their businesses.  In the Middle Ages, for instance, bankers invented money of account, met at fairs, and cleared their books without exchanging hard money, but they did not live at at the fairs.  They only met there.  So, again, that, too, is a lawful place.  So, I can see that metaphysical need.  We are not ethereal creatures: we have weight and occupy space, so lawful space is important. 

I have not read The God of the Machine in 40 years.  I found it poetic.  Clearly, I should revisit the work. 
Again, in terms of merchantry as a world view, the Greeks tended to carry their wealth in coins and were less tied to place.  The Romans were all about land.  When surrounded by Persians, the Greeks of Miletos, Akragas, and other towns, simply took their movables and left.  Following the disaster at Cumae, the Romans drafted another 15,000 boys to fight Hannibal. 


Post 13

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Michael.

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Post 14

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

You aren't answering my arguments. I see what you are doing as just dancing about the issue. Whether you don't grasp my arguments or are choosing to ignore them... it is the same from my perspective.

You can't have competition between two laws where force is permitted regarding the defense of individual rights. Period. For example, in a particular jurisdiction it is illegal to commit murder and it makes no sense at all to say that another competing entity should exist and compete within that jurisdiction giving another law with a different definition of murder. It is nonsense to think there is any logic or value that people, in some fashion, could choose between those laws or law-provider-entities and to claim that in the absence of freedom (individual rights being protected) that you have meaningful competition that will produce the best 'laws.'

Free market competition requires freedom. Freedom requires that a single set of laws which define individual rights being enforced within a jurisdiction. Otherwise, you are granting moral and practical equality to the participation of thug with a gun. Anarchists think it is possible to have free competition without freedom.

I hope for an answer that clearly, and directly, touches all of those key elements. No digressions into numismatics or history of nomad barter practices or metaphorical relationships between government and religion, or linguistic etymology. After all, if these are to be "Responses to Steve Wolfer" then they should address the arguments he makes. Okay?

Steve Wolfer

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Post 15

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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Post 16

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent video!!!

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Post 17

Tuesday, February 2, 2010 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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Michael

Cannot two people distant from each other agree on a common set of rules and also agree upon an enforcement mechanism?


Certainly they can. Business is and often made this way. But criminals do not politely sit down with you in a civilized manner and ask you to come to an agreement on how to resolve a conflict. So what do you do? Sure you can hunt this person down, kill him, or perhaps imprison him, but what if his family or friends doesn't understand why you are doing this to him? So they come after you, thinking they are justified in harming you for the harm you did to him. Now your family is upset, because they think you were perfectly justified in your actions, so they go after the criminal's family that injured you.

Now suppose you were wrong in the first place in identifying the criminal. You didn't hold a trial for him, so your neighbors cannot confidently live their lives thinking justice was done. Now consider what they would think "when will Marotta mistakenly think I or one of my loved ones wronged him? I better put an end to this"

Yet this is exactly what anarchy is. It doesn't preserve freedom, it simply devolves into armed conflict. With a panicked citizenry that is begging for someone to come and establish order.


Michael you also seem to be ok with the U.S. Constitution:

"Though we all seem to agree on the general value of the US Constitution"

Well what is it about the Constitution that you value? Would you prefer "competing" Constitutions? One with the protection of free speech, one without? One with trial by jury, the other with no trial necessary?



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Post 18

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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Yes, very interesting. I agree with the basic thrust of the video. However, I don't care for the characterization of anarchy as rule by no one. Anarchy is the absence of a uniform law within the same geographical area. Rule by no one is in fact desirable, because no one has the right to rule others by force. A right is, by definition, a moral prohibition against the initiation of force. The purpose of a government is to protect an individual's right to be free from rule by others. It is a mistake to characterize the protection of this right by a government as a form of rule by some over others, which is how it would have to be characterized if rule by no one is to be rejected.

I also disagree with the video's characterization of those who favor the proper role of government as "constitutional moderates." Ayn Rand would have chafed at that nomenclature. Objectivists are not "moderates" in any sense of the term. They are extremists in the sense that they don't believe in any "moderate" adherence to their principles. Barry Goldwater's famous statement comes to mind: "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

However, despite these caveats, the video does appear to defend individual rights, because it states that the purpose of government is to protect the rights of the people. I also liked it's criticism of democracy. Rand made a similar criticism in her essay "Textbook of Americanism," in which she gave the example of 51% of the people enslaving the other 49%, which would be perfectly consistent with (unlimited) democracy, but clearly antithetical to any principle of justice.

- Bill

Post 19

Wednesday, February 3, 2010 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

How about this... "Anarchy is a condition where a given geographical area does not have an effectively enforced uniform set of rules. Further, there may or may not be sets of conflicting rules promulgated by multiple organizations which may be using force to establish their rules.

I'm trying to avoid any conflation over the word rule - which can mean "rule over others in a way that in itself violates their individual rights" versus "rule of laws based upon individual rights defined as legal rules."

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