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Post 220

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Kat

Isn't it spelled "cum".


tee hee
Sharon

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Post 221

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Seriously, folks.

Cursing in context ain't gonna kill anybody. Just... use some common sense. We don't need a written rule for everything. Geez.

Also, I really, really, really am going to miss Jennifer, Kelly, and David. I wish this would not have happened. I sort of feel like we're wallowing in it. Can we get back to "total passion for the total height"? The credo is why I stopped on this site and didn't move anywhere else. It still brings tiny tears to my eyes to think that they are gone. Who is going to be the hot food chick now? Certainly not me. ;o)

And, speaking as someone who has been the subject of a bruhaha on SOLO before (ick), I can say that although it was crazy for awhile, and I didn't feel great about the site during that time... these folks moved on. The subject dissolved, and although I felt sometimes like leaving the site, I stuck with it... and I am glad that I did. Ya'll are really great people, (for the most part ;o), and I am so happy to be a part of this forum. I learn a lot from it.... but right now, I am not learning anything! And it's not enjoyable... and I know sometimes life is not perfect, but I think at this point, it could be better, and some are not letting it.

That said, the only moderation I support is shutting down this thread!

(Not really... but it would be nice, you know?)

~Nicki T.


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Post 222

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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All:

One last post to make my own position clear.

I think obscenities on SOLO are generally in poor taste and indicate a lack of imagination, and probably a lack of maturity.

But those are my beliefs, standards and tastes, and I would not impose those on others or prohibit their occasional use IN GENERAL. Nor would I oppose a choice to ban them.

What I WOULD specifically prohibit is their use to attack and verbally abuse another personwhoever that person might be.

Examples:
  • "You're really stupid" is bad enough, and on many moderated forums would constitute sufficient cause for warning against personal attacks.
  • "You're really a stupid motherfucker" should be beyond the pale for SOLO, in my judgment, and should result in disciplinary action, whatever that is, toward whoever said it, whatever the rationale.
Doubtless even more will disagree with this view. But ...

How many people will leave SOLO because extreme verbal attacks are banned? Not many, is my guess.

How many will drift away if gutter-language attacks are permitted and encouraged? Far more, I think.

Enough said.

Nathan Hawking


Post 223

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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Nicole,

Context?

Dayaamm! Now there's an interesting idea...

(scratching head and looking at the battlefield...)

Michael


Post 224

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Nathan,
"You're really a stupid motherfucker" should be beyond the pale for SOLO, in my judgment, and should result in disciplinary action, whatever that is, toward whoever said it, whatever the rationale.
Wanna share with us any thoughts on who should be the one to decide on disciplinary action?

Hey, I got a great idea! Why not you?

Michael


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Post 225

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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The outcome of the recent crisis at SOLO is the loss of the presence here of Jennifer and Kelly, who we generally agree were good company.  They shared many of our values and yet we were unable to keep them here even though they both agreed with almost everyone that David owed Joseph an apology.  Their loss was not a rational outcome.  Somehow, the atmosphere became poisoned for some time and emotions went far out of rational control.  No one wound up with a desirable result.  No one is happy.

Emotions and the resulting foul language did much to poison the atmosphere.  They made it very difficult for anyone to keep their eye on the big picture.  This is an object lesson in why the more rational and civilized men since the Age of Enlightenment have generally sensed that when their emotions are running to extremes, it is especially important to step back from conflict, especially if with a friend, and re-assess the situation.  There is no question that when most of us enter a state of extreme emotionality, especially anger, that we have a harder time making the best rational evaluations of the situation.  The more important the consequences of the conflict, the more important it is to be sure that one's emotional state is consistent with reason.  Since there is often a correlation between strong emotional states and situations with serious consequences to our well-being, it is clear why rational men generally will rein in their emotional expressions in these cases until they are sure that they have a proper assessment of all the issues and that their emotions are consistent with that assessment.

The ideal for an Objectivist is to achieve such control of his emotions that they are consistent with reason.  When that goal is achieved, a wonderful thing happens.  Instead of constant or frequent conflict between our emotions and reason, we find that we can really start to enjoy our emotions and sharing them with others whose emotions are consistent with reason.  This has clearly been the general atmosphere at SOLO.  Because it has been the case, many posters have found a great emotional value in the resulting freedom of expression here.  This is something we cannot enjoy with those who do not mostly share a commitment to reason with us.  I hear expressions from many who do not want to lose this sharing of emotions, including through the expression of profanity.  For many reasons, I would prefer seeing little of the profanity, but I do very much value the sharing of emotional responses to our values.  But, as has always been the case, one has to work hard to be sure that our emotions are based upon a rational evaluation of our values and the situations we are in, if this is to continue working.  A careful balance is required and to achieve that we have to constantly make judgments about whether an emotional reaction is still based upon reason, especially if the emotion is anger.

SOLO has been dedicated to being a forum for rational discussions and for the sharing of emotions held by rational individuals.  This is a wonderful goal, but it is a difficult one.  It works through a combination of benevolence and a determination to remember that we are friends bound by a great many shared values.  It also requires us to step back and take stock whenever we get too angry at someone whom we have long valued as a friend.  It is important to put the situation causing the anger into the context of the many shared values and the long history of the many interactions which have made us friends.  It is often critical to do this early, before we egoists start thinking that our egos will be bruised too badly by an apology or a compromise.  We should try to remember also that even Objectivists often are benefited by a compromise.  Essentially rational people have disagreements and it is rational to reach a compromise in many cases, such as when it helps us to achieve a greater goal together.


Post 226

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Regarding post #225:

Many good points Charles.

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Post 227

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 11:39pmSanction this postReply
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Robert B, I am in full agreement with your post #192.


Jeffrey: "I am sick of being confronted by this steady barrage of crudeness. This behavior is not something I wish to invite into my world."

My sentiments exactly.

Phil: "I don't think the -central- issue here is coarse or foul language. Instead, it is what it implies as lying beneath it: contempt or belittlement toward the individual one is engaging, dismissiveness toward the argument he is making or toward seriously engaging the actual issues being discussed."

Agreed.

Kat: "I don't understand all the fuss here about foul language."

Kat, the issue is not foul language as such, although that certainly is relevant. The issue is what Phil named.

Barbara

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Post 228

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Linz quotes Elmoron:
 
Rowlands got broadsided by me. So what? The panty-waste is used to getting high-fived and and slapped on the ass. He's pissed. Let the silly fucker be pissed. That's what SOLO is about, isn't it? ...  I will not apologize, as I'm sure you've surmised. I wish very strongly to stay on SOLO, to be your friend and many others', so I hope you will change your mind.

What the f***? I mean, what f***ing f***?! He'd have to be cloud cuckoo land, wouldn't he?

If he posted like that to get a reaction, to see what would happen when a principal was attacked in such a way, should he not have first thought about whether it was fair to treat a guy as his guinea pig in his vile experiment? Joe's writing away, contributing his best and whammo, this prick comes out of nowhere and lays into him, belittling his intelligence and achievement. Tooheyist Scum.


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Post 229

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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You know, as much as I'm revolted by David Elmore's E-mail, I think it might be wise to put the lynch mob on hold until you've actually met the bloke in person. 

In my experience with certain Tauranga-based Libertarianz is that they sound like irrational arseholes on the internet but in real life, when you meet them face to face over your favourite alcoholic beverage, they can turn out to be charming, intelligent, people who have a habit of going off half-cocked.

If SOLO is ever to clear the rubble from this air-burst, people are just going to have to shut-the-f**k-up until they have the full facts. Facts including actually having met David face to face. Only then can you see whether David is actually "Tooheyist Scum" or whether (like so many, otherwise intelligent and noble, objectivists) he is suffering from a bout of premature repudiation...

And just in case I didn't make it clear in the first sentence, let me reiterate: I am as revolted by David's ad hominem attack on Joe as you are Andrew. But I remain mindful of how crappy the internet is as a means of personal communication. So I am reserving my final judgement on David-the-person (as opposed to his recent activities) until I've met both parties personally. It would be ever-so-nice for SOLO and World Peace if everybody else did the same.

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 6/20, 11:40am)


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Post 230

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Winefield suggested:
And just in case I didn't make it clear in the first sentence, let me reiterate: I am as revolted by David's ad hominem attack on Joe as you are Andrew. But I remain mindful of how crappy the internet is as a means of personal communication. So I am reserving my final judgement on David-the-person (as opposed to his recent activities) until I've met both parties personally. It would be ever-so-nice for SOLO and World Peace if everybody else did the same.
I anxiously await a field report from the upcoming July 4th event at the home of the Elmores.  Just have a backup plan, i.e., a few hotel phone numbers, in case he proves himself as horrid in person as he does on the Internet.  Exercise caution lest he attempt to blow some of Toohey's cigar smoke in your eyes to cloud the truth.


Post 231

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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Kat: "Is there a law that says bad soft-core porn can't be funny? "

I think there is some Union requirement that it can't be INTENTIONALLY funny...

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Post 232

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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"I got your message loud and clear. Unfortunately, I couldn't detect in you, any of that malicious baggage that oozes out of the pores of those uncouth ones you tried to portray. Back to acting school for you. I laughed so hard I had to go to the loo. Have you considered a stand-up comedy thread? "


Eh, I'll have to try harder next time!

Post 233

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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I have finally waded through this angst ridden thread. 

I remember the offending post in real time and my reaction to it.  I thought the opening paragraph was a joke in the style of Monty Python and paid little attention to it.  What worried me was how Joe would react to the impertinent way in which the philosophical challenge was raised, to my mind that was the insult; not that the challenge was raised, but in the thinly veiled hostility in the positing.

I guess I got it backwards.





 


Post 234

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Luke wrote:

"I anxiously await a field report from the upcoming July 4th event at the home of the Elmores."

Bugger, you mean I have to stay sober enough to observe closely and write a report?

I was planning to get absolutely hammered. My conclusions on David and Kelly were to have been based on whether or not my eyebrows were still intact in the morning...



Post 235

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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"My conclusions on David and Kelly were to have been based on whether or not my eyebrows were still intact in the morning..."

Oh, have they grown back? :-)

Post 236

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, but my hair hasn't... :-)


Post 237

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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OK, things seem to have petered out.

After all of the many viewpoints expressed and the fallout to SOLOHQ as a result of the events that inspired this thread, has anything concrete been accomplished here? I hope you women can excuse me, but I'm a guy and I like to fix things. Hey, that's just a joke! But seriously, has the point of all this been to simply allow everyone the opportunity to vent their frustrations and then go on as before, or have we actually done anything to improve the culture of this forum?

Just curious.
--
Jeff

Post 238

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

You are so practical. 

Do you mean, did everyone soar higher as a result of all this?        How could you tell?




Do you find fixing things rewarding?   I'm working on something in South Africa.

It's the most exciting thing ever. I wanted to tell Phil's thread , but I don't believe it's their thing.


If you post me a private note, we can talk.    Life's so short; and I'm so serious.  What's a person to do? 


sharon


Post 239

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Jesus this thread is like Dracula. We've driven stakes into it, drawn and quartered it, even burned it at the stake and it still just won't bloody-well DIE...

The only reason this dead horse is still twitching is that people keep kicking the bloody thing. In the name of all that is holy, just let this thread Rest in Peace!!!!

Please, just let it alone. Let's just agree to let the matter rest and let this be the absolutely last post on the topic.

Pretty please?

Pretty please with strawberries and ice-cream?


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