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Post 220

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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I really do wish there were a negative sanction button.

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Post 221

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Again you make baseless assumptions about my experience with alcoholism because I will not parrot the therapeutic culture's line that it is a disease.  I state the obvious: Alcoholism is a surrender to temptation run amok, a loss of self-control, and in the end self-destruction.  Who seriously argues otherwise?

Yet you ask ...
Where do your credentials come from to make statements like that if you do not listen to those who have dealt with it?
What credentials do I need to know what is true?  Proof will lie in your direct answer to this question:  Who conquered your addiction?  You or someone else?

Andy


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Post 222

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Three comments on three aspects of this thread:

1) Perhaps we should all agree that we do not have enough information to decide if Frank O'Connor was an alcoholic or not.  That's the bottom line on that discussion, and it's really pointless to continue.

2) On the issue of the Valliant book: Like some of the other posters on this thread, I am uneasy with the way it attacks Barbara Branden.  (Personally I think Nathaniel Branden deserves some attacking - for his behavior, not necessarily for everything he has written about Rand.)  I won't be as blunt as Jon's post 202, but I've got to say I basically agree with him.  I think the Valliant book is valuable, however, in that it helps provide evidence to counter ridiculous assertions such as those made in the original quote that started off this whole thread.  James Valliant and Barbara Branden have very different approaches to writing.  I used the term "overdramatization" before, referring to the alcoholic-Frank conjecture.  One of the reasons The Passion of Ayn Rand is such a readable book is that Barbara Branden does "dramatize" things.  Read the section on Rand being diagnosed with lung cancer.  Branden writes a scene in the doctor's office, complete with dialog.  Now, I'm sure she wasn't there, and I'm pretty sure that Rand didn't recount the experience to Barbara word-for-word, but the dialog does sound plausible.  Doctor says "I'm ... sorry.  It looks like a malignancy in one lung."  I bet this drives James Valliant crazy, as someone who does not like conjecture or dramatization in a biography.  It gives me pause, too, but I think it was done in order to make a more interesting book.  If you look at the overall tone of Passion of Ayn Rand, it does not seem to be intended to denigrate Ayn Rand; quite the contrary.

3) On the issue of Alcoholism:  Thank you, MSK, for providing some insights.  It is very hard for non-addicts to understand addictive behavior.  Perhaps bringing up the possibility of someone being an alcoholic is meant in a constructive way, or as an excuse for some negative behavior of theirs, but I can see that it could be taken as very condescending and insulting!  In the case of Linz, the Drooling Beast thread basically said that Linz sometimes flies off the handle but oh the poor baby can't help it, it's because he's an alcoholic.  I think that's insulting.  Linz flying off the handle is a personality trait, and he will continue to be that way if he chooses to.  The insinuation that he can't help it is insulting.  (Anyway, that's a non-alcoholic's perspective on that....)


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Post 223

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I think it would be useful to clear the air on matter closely related to this discussion.  I think it is misguided at best and perverted at worst to assign any virtue to recovering from alcoholism or any other addiction.  It is merely rational to do so.  There is nothing heroic in destroying yourself in a toxic downward-spiral pursuit of pleasure and then reasserting the discipline and commonsense that should have been there in the first place.

This is just another bane of the therapeutic culture of self-esteem at the expense of self-respect.  It's like those laudatory news features that praise an ex-convict for going straight.  What's praiseworthy about deciding not to steal anymore?  Nothing.  Likewise, there's nothing laudatory about choosing not to destroy yourself anymore with alcoholism.

And if you insist upon calling it a disease, then there is even less to praise.

Fortunately praise isn't the cure for addiction.  Self-respect is.  That's the neat thing about self-respect.  It works regardless of what anyone else has to say.  Unlike self-esteem, which is a leech sucking off the back-slapping and encouragement of others to pump up your worth, respecting yourself needs only your own recognition that you have a life worth living.  It's good to have family and friends who want to help, but in the end only you can do it.

Andy


Post 224

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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I agree that the presence of those bottles in Frank O'Connor's studio has been demonstrated to be completely irrelevant to the nature of his drinking from any imaginable perspective and that includes Leonard Peikoff's, Barbara Branden's and James Valliant's, except as the last wants to support his thesis about Barbara. I guess the idea is to put as much weight on her as to make her crumble into the dust as the righteous legions march on with the banner of Ayn Rand (whoever that is) held high.

--Brant


Post 225

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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I like Roger Bissel posts a lot!

R.B.: Well, since it's in regard to DROOLING BEAST, it's more likely that she's being made a scape-nanny (goat).  :-)


He comes in shows how to balance an egg and leaves. lol


Post 226

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Andy wrote:

Doesn't a genuine respect for a person's privacy demand that we draw the conclusion that he has no addictions in the absence of any evidence? 
Exactly right.   One of the main reason people claim to be atheists is because they don't believe there is sufficient evidence to know if there is a God.  There may be but because there is no proof they state correctly that,  "There is no God."  Likewise, from the evidence provided so far the only correct statement to make is, "Linz, is not an alcoholic".

Gerald


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Post 227

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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You are wrong, Roger. "Drooling Beast" was hers and James Kilbourne's responsibility and a great injustice to Lindsay Perigo. It left them without a leg to stand on and any chance of reconciliation vanished when Barbara had David Brown post her previously blocked post toward the end of that unfortunate thread. "Whipping girl" does not refer to the "Drooling Beast" thread. Period.

--Brant


Post 228

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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I will have to say you are quite correct, Andy - alcoholism is NOT a disease - and it is good to see someone stand up to the overwhelming "disease as metaphor" which has enticed every emotionalist on the matter to slobber in the excusemongering...

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Post 229

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Frankly, Casey, if someone abhors Rand or her philosophy, they will distort anything written by her, or about her, to use against her or her philosophy. I think that's pretty much "common sense" by now.

In my reading of Brandens' books, I didn't have a lesser view of Rand. My synopsis of what I got from the books (as it relates to the affair): Rand & Branden got into an affair (with "permission," which I thought was bizarre), at some point Branden wanted to get out of it because his romantic feelings for her died, he then lied to her instead of ending it sooner, and when Branden exposed his affair with Patrecia to Rand, then all hell broke loose. Nothing too controversial about that. All kinds of people get furious when betrayed, especially by lovers. Rand's reaction didn't surprise me. She was in love with Branden. From her perspective, he betrayed her at the deepest level.

What really excited me about N. Branden's book was the stories about "the Collective" and the intense intellectual experience of meeting with Rand, especially during the writing of Atlas Shrugged. I guess the point I'm making is we take away from those books what we want to take away. Even after reading the books by the Brandens, I would have loved to meet Ayn Rand. Mind you, I would have the social grace not to mention the Brandens around her.

Regarding one part of Rand's character--her narcissistic features--you don't need Brandens' books to see that. It's in her own writing, especially her non-fiction.

I don't think the Brandens' books are at "fault" for such commentaries as this one. As I noted above, as long as someone hates Rand's ideas, they will find fault where they will. That's just a fact of reality.

-Walter


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Post 230

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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Walter wrote,
"In my reading of Brandens' books, I didn't have a lesser view of Rand...Even after reading the books by the Brandens, I would have loved to meet Ayn Rand."

After having read the Brandens' books, even if assuming that everything in them was true, I didn't have a lesser view of not only Rand, but Frank as well. I would have enjoyed meeting him (and I would have enjoyed meeting him for martinis even more). It's been a very long time since I read it, but I think Barbara's book in particular gave me the sense that Frank was a very sweet and sensitive man.

J

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Post 231

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 3:57pmSanction this postReply
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Andy!  Y're doublin' up posts on me, man!  Gimme a chance, will ya?  I'm doing the best I can.  :-)  I'll deal with this last one first, 'cause it's the easiest. 
Doesn't a genuine respect for a person's privacy demand that we draw the conclusion that he has no addictions in the absence of any evidence?  The reason an addict often gives free rein to temptation in solitude is because his behavior is shameful, so he hides it.  By being agnostic on whether or not a person is behaving shamefully in private, when you have no knowledge to even raise a suspicion, may in the strictest sense be rational, but it certainly lacks the virtue of being benevolent.
Simply put:  no.  I know that you think that alcoholism is a strictly moral issue, so from a strictly moral point of view, yeah, it would be malicious not to assume decency of someone I didn't know.  But, if you credited my position even to the point of recognizing that it's different from yours, you would understand that I do not see alcoholism as a moral issue at all.  You would know that I think it is a disease and in your benevolence you would imagine that I might be consistent in my application of the term.  Assuming that there is no disease isn't so much moral as squeamish.  Such squeamishness, could be fatal.  If I see a growth on your arm that looks like a cancer I've survived, shouldn't I tell you?  Or should I assume that you have a cancer free "virtue" and it's none of my business.  People like me and, I imagine, Michael, who are familiar with recovery dynamics, don't judge addicts the way ignorant bystanders do.  To me, blaming an alcoholic is like blaming a cancer patient.  You wanna talk about malevolence, there it is.

-Kevin


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Post 232

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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"Ummmmmmmmmmmm.... Dayaamm I'm trying! I will not say it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not make one crack about boring old fart... Erggggghhh!!!!...I JUST DID!" [MSK]

Michael, your heroic self-control (not to mention the strong sound effects which accompany have it) throughout your innumerable posts has long been a source of awe and inspiration to me personally ... and to all of us on this list.

:-)

B.O.F.

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Post 233

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Hello again, Andy. 
Alcoholism is not a disease.  It is self-destructive behavior that an alcoholic can stop if he musters the will to do so.  
I'm gonna try to reason with you.  I'm not an old hand at Objectivism, so I might get some of this wrong.  Please remain open to the point I'm trying to make, and if there are fallacies in my reasoning, let me know.  Here's a thing:  you talk about mustering the will to stop drinking.  Okay. 

Will is a thing that exists.  It's a function of our material bodies.  Even though science has yet to discover the physical seat of will in the body, it is nonetheless a real function.  So like anything else that exists, that is real, it can break or stop functioning all together for mechanical reasons.  How can you say that the malfunctioning of will is strictly a moral issue? 

It seems a lot of people on this board propose "volition" as this all-powerful, unstoppable, always prevailing force in a rational mind.  Doesn't that smack of mysticism even a little bit?  Can't the will, as a function of the living mind, break or be impaired?  What would you call a systematic degradation of the will, complete with syndromes, symptoms and various cures if not a disease?
To call alcoholism a disease only gives an alcoholic the excuse to postpone blaming himself for the cause of his problem.
Okay, until very recently I knew next to nothing about Ayn Rand and Objectivism.  When I read her preface to The Fountainhead I came across the strange passage where she quotes Nietzche at length and then goes into even greater length to differentiate her own view from that of Nietzche; not her finest rhetorical hour, it struck me on the face of it to be kinda silly.  I could have stopped at my very glancing acquaintance with her ideas and malevolently proclaimed, "She's a fascist in denial!"  You've heard this kind of ignorant smear based on half-truths plenty of times I imagine.

Well, this idea that understanding alcoholism as a disease is nothing more than a way for a drunk to excuse himself is every bit as misinformed and malevolent.  It's nonsense.  AA is so set against the kind of excusism you describe that they've got a folksy derogatory term for it:  "stinkin' thinkin'."   It is well understood that making excuses for your drinking is the fast track to a relapse.  AA and its methods are a lot more complicated than you imagine.

AA and Objectivism came out of the same cultural moment and evolved in some startlingly similar directions I've noticed.  Both focus on reality-based self-esteem; on taking personal responsibility for our lives (no one can do it for us).  Both concern themselves with pains-taking personal accountability. 

One of the reasons perfectly reasonable people can be so ignorant about AA is that AA has a tradition of privacy and has intentionally kept the details of their methods out of the public consciousness for decades, out of respect for personal privacy.  Oprah-fication has changed this, and many old timers in AA approve of that even less than you do, I assure you.  But AA has a tradition of non-interference with the choices of others, so what some members of AA decide to do with their lives is no one's business but their own.  Sound familiar? 

As with the popularization of any movement, plenty of nonsense gets mixed in with the real deal along the way.  There are differences, stark differences to be sure, but I was surprised to see how similar a lot of Objectivist thinking is to the recovery thinking I was already familiar with.

For what it's worth,

Kevin

Post 234

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin-

AA and Objectivism came out of the same cultural moment and evolved in some startlingly similar directions I've noticed.  Both focus on reality-based self-esteem; on taking personal responsibility for our lives (no one can do it for us).  Both concern themselves with pains-taking personal accountability. 

I'm not really sure how AA works, though I don't think it's all that secretive.  I could walk into any used book store today and pick up one of their 'anonymous' manuals.  However, my question is about the above statement.  You seem to criticize Andy and Objectivism for believing in personal responsibility, but in the same breath you seem to tout the virtues of AA for doing the same thing.  I haven't yet endorsed any viewpoint here regarding alcoholism, but I'm not following you at all.  You imply that it is a disease, but then espouse AA's 'personal accountability'-based treatment.  Correct me if I misunderstood.


Post 235

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Jody, that's a fair question.  You might want to pick up that book next time you're in a bookstore and read it, if you really want to know what AA is about.  In the dark ages, all illness was understood to be the result of moral failing.  Science has since shown that to be false.  One of the differences between alcoholism as a disease and say, cancer, is that cancer doesn't have quite the same moral stigma culturally that alcoholism does.  So, an alcoholic is likely to avoid getting help out of shame.  The recognition that alcoholism is a disease for which they need feel no shame, frees them to get the help they need.  Getting help is the responsible thing to do.  I'm really just giving you a thumbnail here.  Read the book!  :-)

And I never said that AA was "secretive." 

Gang, the constant aggressive inferences is really getting to me!

In addition to the "twelve steps,"  AA has "twelve traditions."  The eleventh tradition states  "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio,and films."  This tradition has been interpreted in different ways over the years.  The traditions are only traditions, they are not binding and violating them is never grounds for dismissal. 

-Kevin

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Post 236

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

I only suspected you weren't listening before and just mouthing off opinions. After that last post, now I am sure of it.

As usual, you do not pay any attention at all to what a person said and then attribute them with a position they did not say. In the following case, here is how you just tried to do that to me (being that the post was addressed to me):
I think it is misguided at best and perverted at worst to assign any virtue to recovering from alcoholism or any other addiction.  It is merely rational to do so. 
Setting aside the assholishiness of the "misguided to perverted" spectrum you bleat out, if you had read ANY of my former writings on my personal experiences, you would have seen me clearly state that I did not consider myself a hero, but more of a survivor.

I have always stated the contrary of what you attribute me with, you jerk.

It's all there and stated just like that . All you have to do is read it. I do admit that this is not as much fun as blurting out the first thing that pops into your head and setting up straw men to knock down. It requires effort and it requires thought.

Most of all, it requires a wish to understand. Your wish in this area comes off as wanting to teach others what you do not know and have made no effort to learn.

You long for the unearned and you are intellectually lazy in your discussion - so much so that you have no idea of whom you are talking to. You will not get the unearned from me.

(Just as an aside, most people consider overcoming cancer as heroic in the part that requires a "will to live" in the face of such a devastating disease. That "will to live" part in overcoming alcoholism could be considered as heroic also - it certainly is virtuous - but I prefer not to go there. I will cover this more in my article.)

The other issue you completely misunderstand is when you postulate the false dichotomy of self-esteem versus self-respect. They are synonyms. Nothing more.

You make an issue where none exists.

Just say you don't like Nathaniel Branden. That's more honest.

Going back to alcoholism, I stated before that you only knew what you were able to rationalize about it. I was mistaken. You don't know jack-shit about alcoholism.

Michael



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Post 237

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Joe Maurone—noted & warmly appreciated. Thanks.

Linz

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Post 238

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Robert & GEWH,

I'm glad to know that are at least a few of us who haven't drunk the zeitgeist's Kool-Aid regarding alcoholism and see the problem for what it is.


Kevin,

Although my beliefs about alcoholism and how to defeat it are consistent with Objectivism, they pre-date my knowledge of Miss Rand's philosophy.  I leave it to you and Michael, who like to make guesses about people you don't know, to figure how I as a teenager learned what I know about alcoholism today.

As for your equation of alcoholism to suffering from cancer, if that comparison is valid, then why isn't pedophilia the same?  Why shouldn't we have an outpouring of compassion for pedophiles who are driven by their "disease" to not just hurt themselves but other people too?  How terrible a disease is that!


Michael,

You bleated ...
... if you had read ANY of my former writings on my personal experiences ...
What on God's green earth makes you think I would want to do that?  This is honestly nothing personal, but I can't imagine many things more boring than trudging through the life stories of people I don't know, let alone have any relationship with.

By the way, I note you evaded my question to you:  Did you overcome your alcoholism, or did someone else do that for you?  The answer to that question explains why is alcoholism is dysfunctional behavior not a disease.

Andy


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Post 239

Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Great to see you here again!

(Despite the negative sanction I felt buzzing behind my ear...)

//;-)

btw - Any comment on that scenario of possibility I laid out for James Valliant? So far he has not commented.

Laure,

Your remarks are very level headed and I respect them completely. I even agree with them, although I do have a much different view of the insult of alcoholism (having gone through it). As alcoholism is such a loaded and misunderstood term, I certainly understand why it should be used with extreme caution in public. (The same goes for addiction.)

I hope you will enjoy the article I am preparing on this theme. It is addressed to Objectivists, the Objectivist viewpoint, and what - and when - can be done about it from Objectivist standards.

I did a previous article on this addressed to addicts and alcoholics and even submitted it. Linz and Andrew were gracious enough to cancel putting it up at my request. I canceled because I want Objectivists to understand this disease from the reality and pro-reason perspective.

(I also think this subject is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the Drooling Beast episode or this present "Frank alcoholic or not" thing.)

Solo is a forum for Objectivists, not those with disease of any nature. So my approach (addressing the wrong audience) was flawed at the outset. I am glad I am doing another article, also, because the new one is so much better in getting across the nature and reality of this disease. I think your perspective (and that of others) will be broadened on this - at least, I will do my best to get the principle issues across.

I think this area will become important for much good rational work to be done later - hopefully from an Objectivist foundation - and for studies on the biological aspects and nature of consciousness and free will.

Michael


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