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Post 320

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 12:20amSanction this postReply
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I've no idea what you're on about, Brant, but if you'd been paying attention you would know that I originally had no intention of reading the thing at all. It was cut & dried for me—the book had to be a Peikovian apologetic on matters from which we should all long since have moved on. People whose judgement I trusted said it reached preposterous conclusions on the basis of numbing trivia. They said it was boringly inconsequential, a failed attempt to smear the Brandens.

Then I got smeared by Branden, B.

Then I read posts right here on this thread from folk with no previous axe to grind who read PARC & said it was not boring, not inconsequential ... & substantively damning of the Brandens (most dramatic example: Lance Moore's post). I also saw intimations of a pattern of behaviour consistent with what I had just experienced—& I'm certainly seeing more than just intimations now that I'm actually reading the book.

Wotta learning curve this is turning into! Back to the drawing board for Linz after this, I suspect.

Of course, it helps that I just turned into a Randroid, Peikovian, Valliantarian ARIan, as per Brandbourne's prediction.

Linz

Post 321

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 12:27amSanction this postReply
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Yes Linz, you got smeared. Can you believe that I believe that? It's true!

Why you would trust significant others in regard to PARC in the first place is what has me baffled, unless you were very busy, which is a legitimate excuse.

--Brant


Post 322

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 12:39amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Let it be a precedent.

Post 323

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 3:17amSanction this postReply
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Brendan,

"I would say that something like cancer is an organic malfunction, in that the cancerous cells are multiplying at a rate that is faster than normal. A stroke is a malfunction, because the blood stops flowing as it normally does. A heart attack is a malfunction because the heart normally beats to a certain rhythm. And so on."

Exactly. Addiction is mostly a result of the pleasure centers of the brain being overstimulated. It is one of the empirical successes of research underlying behaviorism/operant conditioning. If a heart starts pumping at a slower hear rate but with more volume per beat as a response to muscular growth as a result of exercise, we don't call that a malfunction. But if a heart deteriorates as a result of bad diet, the heart is responding appropriately to the diet, but it is still malfunctioning. In addiction, the brain might be responding appropriately to being stimulated, but it is the way that the addictive behavior enters into the person's life that answers the question of whether the addiction is debilitating or not.
Addiction, like any malfunction, has causes, and they are not all volitional.

"I agree alcoholism seems to be more prevalent in some cultures, but I don’t know much about any connection between neurology and addiction. Can you expand on that?"

The hormone-addiction connection is well established. People get addicted to all kinds of things - exercise, reading books, the internet, sex, chess, drugs etc.. The reason why addiction is a malfunction is not the cause, but because the behavior is inappropriate. In some cases, there are other negative effects of the addiction - with smoking, you have lung cancer, with sex and chess, you have the inability to preserve energy for other things etc.

As MSK said, the main motive here is not to excuse addiction of any form if the behavior is considered harmful and inappropriate. The main motive is to help people understand that there are alternatives to the "will is all that matters" paradigm, alternatives which are often more productive. Will is a good part of what matters, but volition has its limits and can be helped by good drugs and other habits. In fact, I tell people all the time that if volition is what they rely upon primarily to cure an addiction, they are likely to never kick it.

For example, I became a chess addict as a kid, and my addiction harmed me in many ways in adulthood. I try to structure my life so that I don't get a chance to play chess.

Laj.

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Post 324

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
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Then I read posts right here on this thread from folk with no previous axe to grind who read PARC & said it was not boring, not inconsequential ... & substantively damning of the Brandens (most dramatic example: Lance Moore's post).

If we would read the old gal a bit more carefully none of this hair-yanking would be necessary:

__________

P.S. Nathaniel Branden is no longer associated with me, with my philosophy, or with The Objectivist (formerly The Objectivist Newsletter). New York, November 1970  - A. R. (from The Virtue of Selfishness)

__________


And she applied the same message to Barbara in To Whom it May Concern. This isn't exactly news to anyone here but why in Galt's name do we (myself included!) look to N. B. and B. B. in an Objectivist context when Ayn Rand herself made it absolutely clear that these two are the very ones not to speak to about it.

Incidentally, this doesn't mean that N.B. and B.B. are horribly damned and immoral people. It only means that they are not Objectivists (according to the founder of Objectivism) and, in any event, are not models of Objectivism.


Post 325

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 3:59amSanction this postReply
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 Adam: “In cultures where children are expected to have wine or beer with meals from an early age - Jews, Chinese - there apparently was no alcoholism until modern times.”

Interesting comment, Adam. The behaviours that we call alcoholism do seem to correlate with the loosening of traditional family and cultural ties. Which implies that “alcoholism” occurs within a context.

The likely context is mid-20th century science, which proposed that human behaviour could be regarded as a value-free phenomenon that could be investigated for “causes” and “effects”, just like “hard” sciences such as physics and chemistry (although modern physics often seems anything but “hard” -- but let’s not go there).

No doubt there was also a therapeutic/political component in this move – medicalising behaviours such as alcoholism provided another avenue of treatment from that taken by the moralisers, and also enabled the medical profession to expand its influence.

This is not to deny that the moralisers sincerely believe that alcohol abuse is a moral failing, nor that the medicalisers sincerely believe that alcoholism is a disease.

So the debate between moralisers and medicalisers is also a turf war, with various interests competing for supremacy. A bit like SOLO, I guess.

I think there are a lot of myths surrounding alcoholism, such as the notion that alcoholics drink 24/7, or that they cannot sometimes drink in moderation, or that they are always hanging out to drink. Much depends on context and circumstance.

Very often, the decision to drink excessively is made with full conscious intent. But that intent does not include the aftermath of the decision – the alcoholic has no intention of becoming a sloppy, sometimes dangerous drunk with mayhem on his mind. But the substance he is ingesting subverts this understanding, and he becomes the thing he doesn’t want to be.

So while medicine and morality are components of the behaviours we call alcoholism, they cannot present a solution, because the solution involves the alcoholic grasping an understanding of his predicament.

Once he achieves that, he is on the way to recovery, and can take whatever medical and moral prescriptions may be necessary to achieve that goal. But the understanding is primary.

Brendan


Post 326

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
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Brendan,


"Very often, the decision to drink excessively is made with full conscious intent. But that intent does not include the aftermath of the decision – the alcoholic has no intention of becoming a sloppy, sometimes dangerous drunk with mayhem on his mind. But the substance he is ingesting subverts this understanding, and he becomes the thing he doesn’t want to be."

I think anyone who has experienced addiction from the inside knows that this is a caricature of what happens to the addict.

First of all, the abuse of whatever the addict is addicted to often happens unconsciously because the addict does it habitually. Moreover, the very first experience the addict had with whatever he is addicted to didn't entail all the problems that the addict currently has. The addict, after becoming addicted, often has to be made aware of the fact that once he indulges their addiction, he is accepting certain consequences often beyond his control. Often those consequences are quite different from what obtained when the addictive behavior was first engaged in.

For example, once I start playing my first game of chess these days, it is virtually impossible for me to stop playing. You might think that I'm repeatedly choosing to play, but for me, the idea that I wanted to stop playing barely crossed my mind and even when it did, it did so fleetingly. And even when I tried to make it last, it had little effect. It took me a long time to admit that once I played that first game, that was all she wrote, and I just couldn't play that first game.

There was a time when I learned chess as a kid. Did I ever imagine that I would become addicted to chess?  No.  I enjoyed chess for recreation then.  However, repeated playing and study made chess have a certain impact on my brain that I cannot fix simply by choosing to stop playing.  For some people, the first drink was good.   However, to get the same amount of pleasure as they did when they had their first drink, they have to drink more.

The decision to drink may or may not be made consciously (in any meaningful way). The fact is that once an addict starts drinking, he is usually unable to stop because his body chemistry has wired itself in such a way that the effects follow. It takes more of the same drug to get high so the lower doses do not have the same effect etc.

In other words, speaking from the outside, it is very easy to imagine addiction to be all about choice.  One has to experience the phenomenon to understand how an addict actually feels.  It doesn't mean that you shouldn't moralize, but you should realize that moralizing is a very small part of the solution to a debilitating addiction.

"So while medicine and morality are components of the behaviours we call alcoholism, they cannot present a solution, because the solution involves the alcoholic grasping an understanding of his predicament."
This is true for any problem that requires self-medication and control as a component of treatment. For example, people with high blood pressure who do not regulate their behavior will die. There is no solution to high blood pressure that doesn't involve self-regulatory behavior. Addiction is similar - while self-regulatory behavior is required, it is more successful under some circumstances. And the exclusive focus on willpower often degrades the importance of understanding the circumstances required for success.

Laj.

Edited for clarity and exposition. 

(Edited by Abolaji Ogunshola on 9/16, 9:44am)


Post 327

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 6:51amSanction this postReply
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Laj,

I'm impressed. You know a great deal more about addiction than most who have posted. Not the whole story, but a great deal more.

Michael

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Post 328

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Enjoy the book and reach your own independent conclusion. I suggested reading it at the start since that's what using your mind is all about.

I know where I stand and as difficult as it will be in the wave I see upcoming, I will stand by my conclusion that Barbara wrote Rand's biography in good faith, not as a smear campaign against her. I simply cannot ignore the good parts and focus only on the doubtful parts in it as Valliant did.

One thing that is making my position extremely difficult, however, is that Barbara will not speak up for herself in her own voice in this fight with you. I do wish she would - if for nothing else, then to silence the impression that she is a coward.

Whatever her reasons are for going about all this backstage activity and not coming out in the open, the effect she is achieving is extremely negative. I can't even see her as a martyr. She is losing years of good reputation with you and others by simply giving up and that perplexes me.

Is this a sort of "shrug" or something?

(btw - Are you yourself going to forget about all the years of the good and simply annul them? In the interest of simply looking and seeing, I just did a small skim of her articles on Solo. Where is any evil in them? I am hard put to find any.)

Dennis's attempt to prove that you are post modern reached a level of silliness that I find impossible to take seriously. That certainly didn't help this feud at all, either. (I tried to rebut it, but every time I tried, I cracked up. I just couldn't type.)

As I understand it, all Barbara needs to do is to speak up in her own voice and state publicly that she wants to post on Solo. I know that her account was cancelled, but I never saw that stipulation revoked, so I imagine that it would be reinstated if she sent you an e-mail or something to put up stating that she wanted to continue posting on Solo. Do I understand this correctly? That the offer is still valid? Or is it now revoked?

If it is still valid, I do not understand the reasoning behind the resistance to making such a statement. It implies nothing at all except to state that Solo is a place to make posts and the owners are the ones who set the terms.

Makes me wonder if I am trying to defend an intellectual suicide. Still, I will stand up for the truth in the best manner I know how, according to what my own reason tells me.

For example, there is a question on the table I asked Valliant that he did not answer. (I asked it a couple of times to make sure he did not miss it.) He did not disagree with me, he refused to answer. He talked all around it and called it arbitrary (at the most generous), yet if I understand the arbitrary quote from Peikoff correctly, then an arbitrary matter is not to be examined. Well he did examine the matter, came to his own speculative conclusion and called another highly likely possibility based on published evidence "arbitrary," i.e. only his own speculation on the matter was worthy of consideration. To me, that manner of reasoning is arbitrary - at the most generous.

I cannot find truth in these things - neither in his refusal to speak up nor in Barbara's refusal to speak up. Now you (and Joe and God knows who else on Solo) are highly pissed to boot - with good reason, I might add.

Looks like I gotta get my rain coat. It's gonna be a bitch.

Michael
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 9/16, 7:53am)


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Post 329

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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I've been staying out of this, and will probably continue to, but I did want to comment on your last post Michael. I really liked it. Yes, Joe and Linz have good reason to be pissed. The comments they made about the Drooling BEast and the later apparent proxy campaign by Barbara are egregious and should not be left to slide by. But you note that Barbara has left the fight and refuses to personally address the ongoing firestorm. I find this perplexing. Things would be much easier and less confusing. I also think it would not drag on as long as it has. I also like your mention of the past value that Barbara brought to this site. We are often reminded by some, when Linz has had an eruption, that he has created real value here and should be viewed in light of this. I agree. Linz, Joe, and company have done so much that I can't thank them enough (Thanks folks!) I recall that value and many pleasant exchanges with her. I hope that others will to. So here's a bonk for you Michael.

Ethan


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Post 330

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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And a bonk for Linz. Drooling Beast and its follow on were innapropriate for an open forum, and smeared you.

Ethan


Post 331

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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MSK,

I guess that's the best you could do as a compliment.  So I'll take that as one and leave it at that.  I don't want to know the whole story behind addiction, whatever that may be.  I just want to know enough to solve real problems.

Laj.


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Post 332

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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Michael: Joe and Linz revoked their offer to Barbara Branden to come back to SOLO if she would merely ask them after she had David Brown post her blocked post on "Drooling Beast." What this means is she will have to do more than merely ask to get back in here. I don't see anything like that happening now. SOLO is like a community filled with many houses. She burned hers to the ground. Now where is she going to live if she comes back? In a van down by the river?

--Brant


Post 333

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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Laj,

Compliment was not even in my thinking when I wrote that. Sorry if it came off as a sort of half-assed compliment. Right now, I am completely immersed in the ideas (which I believe will be an important contribution) and I look forward to your comments later.

Michael


Post 334

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Adam got a little piece of it:

I am posting this because popular misinformation - of the kind you posted - will adversely affect people who could be dissuaded from seeking psychiatric help if they believe the popular myth that there is no effective treatment for pedophilia. In fact, satiation therapy is close to 100% effective, but information about its effectiveness is often suppressed because of religious objections to this mode of treatment among most Christian believers. For the same reason, satiation therapy is also usually not available in mandatory and other government-sponsored or faith-based treatment programs. Also, people with other sexual preferences - including sexual neoteny and sexual neotenism, which are harmless and otherwise completely within the range of healthy human sexuality - are at risk of being misdiagnosed as "pedophiles" by therapists who adhere to Christian religious doctrines.

A person who is afraid that he might be suffering from pedophilia needs to seek individual (NEVER group) diagnosis and treatment from a non-Christian, board-certified MD psychiatrist. Non-medical psychologists, social workers and lay psychotherapists are often ignorant of current science on sexuality.

 
Well, good blessings and thanks for your vigilant efforts to keep people like me from discussing subjects upon subjects upon which they are not qualified to speak. Certainly, I am not a professional in that field. My understanding is that you are not, either. So, it is a lay discussion, we only can talk about our personal experiences, and what we read.

The most important thing I have to say is that by stating an opinion about the therapy challenges associated with sexual predators, you have assumed for me that my purpose was to discourage. I take issue with that. If I were to think such a thing, I would simply state it, and it would be a very stupid thing. I apologize if my comments on the issue led you to this. In the future, I will as always attemnpt better clarity. Or, perhaps issue some kind of general disclaimer statement or position paper on who I am as a human being.

 I believe what you are talking about is a particular type of therapy that is effective for those who are in an early stage of developing some kind of sexual ideation, a pathology,  that might involve children. And, like most things, results are best if caught early in the cycle. There might be more proactive things that prevent the psychology to develop in the first place, but that is a nature/nurture issue, at the least, and it might make things too wide on the thread if we went there right now. Certainly, I would enjoy that discussion.

I do not believe there is any current treatment out there that "cures" mature sexual predators, and particularly pedophiles, that has changed any numbers for the better. In fact,  many of the programs that have been rolled out to any means have been medieval. There are some that are not unlike the "Ludovico Technique" as portrayed in "A Clockwerke Orange".

Perhaps we are, then, talking about two different things.

Best Regards,
rde






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Post 335

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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Rich,

I did my doctoral dissertation in mathematical psychology in a psychology department - and like all doctoral candidates in psychology I was required to take a survey course in psychopathology. So I am not a "professional," but I can certainly read and understand the scientific and professional literature.

In my sexual orientation, I'm a neotenist: my romantic partners tend to be adult women who cultivate a youthful personality and appearance. Because of this, I've been misidentified time and time again, by various ignoramuses and bigots - including cops, prosecutors, and at least one doctoral-level "professional" psychologist - as a "pedophile." On several occasions I've been nearly lynched; in one case arrested because a mob-owned police chief found in "pedophile panic" a convenient escape, from exposure of a political scandal involving his department and his activities. So I've had good, existential reasons both to read the literature and to notice the political uses of nagonka when I see them.

It is difficult for some people to understand that one may be, simultaneously, opposed to the real evil done by child molesters - and aware of the evil uses to which the decent man's virtuous hatred of this evil can be put, by religious and political propaganda promoting other evils through the instrumentality of fear.

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 9/16, 2:24pm)


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Post 336

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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This is what I want to say concerning Linz and Barbara.
We all have opponents in life with whom we disagree and have hard time sending across
the message we want him/she to understand. When the message is in relation to a philosophic topic, we fight with all our strength and might, to prove the opponent wrong. But, at the end though, we are both winners. We always learn something out of every discussion. 

 Linz and Barbara's disagreements were not based on philosophic topics, but they were about their personal life.  If we keep talking about it, we will only cause pain to Linz, and Barbara.
If they really love each other, as they always admitted to do, they are rational enough to know what is the right action to take and to be friend again.
It's not solo's problem to solve, it’s not anyone's problem, and it is only between him and her two. If we keep going, and going, and going, we will only cause them pain.(Didn't we all cause enough of it on ether side?).
They do not deserve to live and suffer. They deserve to be celebrated for their past and present heroic dedication to their cause, which is  Objectivism. That's all.
Ciro




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Post 337

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, I get all that, Adam. But why are you throwing it at me?

I'm a Unitarian Universalist. I can talk about how Xstians view this all you want, to death. We probably have some things in common on that discussion.

Your opening argument had Christianity bundled into it, no? And yet, I have repeatedly stated that I am not a Christian, nor practice Christianity. I only agree with the very basic premises, as I know them. The reason for your response had to do with my religion. Odd, that, considering that you only recently accused me of being a, er, "jew-basher".

That was enough to make me think you were really laying out some bullshit, but I'm trying to like you, and it isn't so damn easy, any more so than you find it to do so with me.

Now, you are getting into a pissing contest about our respective backgrounds. My first thought as to action was to politely decline, but that would just lead on to more. I certainly won't defend my experience, or credentials, or my background, or who I am married to. I cannot, although I sorely would like to in your case, since, above all, you love "evidence". I could give you some evidence. . I consider this philosophy lag. I certainly have no patience to discuss it.

Lags are definitely at issue here. One seems to have something to do with the mistaken reading of AR, and how she viewed psychology. She didn't know shit about it, and she was honest enough, into things, to admit so.

You seem to set a lot of traps. The other thing is that you seem to have a need to really display your accomplishments. Ultimately, that comes to a self-worth issue. I really enjoyed your account of marksmanship. There is a place for that, maybe in the same place where I talk about I had a certain pick and under certain circumstances, I could achieve fast phrasing at 32nd note velocity with good tone.

Great, a big piss-off. My fucking favorite. I only wish we could buy testosterone by the oz.

I don't like saying that to a person. I'm not sure it does a bit of good. Maybe, at your level, you need to hear it. I try to stay to the idea NB said where no one ever benefits from being told they are rotten. But, you sorely tax me, sir.  

Show me proof that the people on the registered sex offenders database are not out doing what they do. Please. Whip it out.

I guess I needed to say fuck a lot today.

Warm Blessings to All,

rde


Post 338

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

I am not writing about you. One of your postings was misinformed, and I corrected the misinformation. Why you should interpret that as as some kind of attack, is not something that I understand, or even care to. It wasn't. But again, it was NOT about you.

As for brining in my personal experience: knowledge is always grounded that way, and I won't pretend otherwise. That said, if I smoked I'd be happy to smoke a peace pipe with you. Really.


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Post 339

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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MSK–you wrote:

(btw - Are you yourself going to forget about all the years of the good and simply annul them? In the interest of simply looking and seeing, I just did a small skim of her articles on Solo. Where is any evil in them? I am hard put to find any.)

Joe & I are not ARIan types who rewrite history, pretend people don't exist, erase their names from audio-tapes, etc.. If I'm not mistaken I was just the other day recalling the good times with BB, probably on this very thread.

Here's another memory: At SOLOC 4, I singled out BB & James K for special songs that I played & dedicated to them as part of my presentation. For Barbara I played Anna Moffo singing Vissi d'Arte; for James (actually James & Sergio) Della Reese singing Softly my Love. James had tears streaming down his face. Of course I'm not going to forget, or annul. But these two perpetrated Drooling Beast & deserted SOLO. That's kinda difficult to forget or overlook as well.

It's our general election today (Saturday in NZ). I'm about to head out & vote for Libertarianz. A certain drooling beast-slayer was that party's first leader. :-)

Then, back to Mr. Valliant.

Linz

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