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Post 340

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:58pmSanction this postReply
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Linz: “Joe & I are not ARIan types who rewrite history…”

Hmm.: “…the book had to be a Peikovian apologetic… Then I read posts right here on this thread from folk with no previous axe to grind… substantively damning of the Brandens... I also saw intimations of a pattern of behaviour consistent with what I had just experienced—& I'm certainly seeing more than just intimations now that I'm actually reading the book… Wotta learning curve...”

So this is just a trip down memory lane? Are you making an argument here, or are you just venting?

Brendan


Post 341

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:33pmSanction this postReply
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 Laj: “Addiction is mostly a result of the pleasure centers of the brain being overstimulated.”

I agree that addiction involves some form of physical stimulation. But I also think it’s more than a matter of just physical stimulation.

The very fact that “People get addicted to all kinds of things - exercise, reading books, the internet, sex, chess, drugs etc” demonstrates that there is an additional factor in addiction. Otherwise, since the human body is pretty much the same across cultures, one would assume a similarity in addictive behaviours.

But as you say, this is not the case. If so, one must posit an “X” factor to account for the different forms of addiction. And without surrendering to postmodernism, explanations of addiction are invariably couched in cultural terms. Some people may become chess addicts, but for most people, chess pushes no buttons. The pleasure centres close down. In my view, this X factor is culture.

“Moreover, the very first experience the addict had with whatever he is addicted to didn't entail all the problems that the addict currently has”

As I said: “But that intent does not include the aftermath of the decision…” We are in agreement.

Brendan


Post 342

Friday, September 16, 2005 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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This is my last post on this thread. It's time to get back to ideas.

--Brant


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Post 343

Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Brant,

That's fairly rich in irony, since the whole point of this thread is that the baseless smears against Ayn Rand promulgated by the Brandens have given her critics the dynamite to derail any attention to her ideas.

I wish it was as easy to dismiss this stuff and focus on the ideas as you seem to think it is -- I really, really do.


Post 344

Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

I found it extremely easy to dismiss this stuff and focus on her ideas. (Hell, I even do that when I talk to Barbara at times.)

I just finished an article based in part on Rand's epistemology and ethics. (Gonna give a small time to bake and make revisions, then off it goes.)

Didn't talk about the affair or smears or anything like that at all.

I hope you enjoy it and can forget about all this stuff too if you read it.

Michael


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Post 345

Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'll be happy to read it and forget how the rest of the world views Rand for a while. But I won't forget why the rest of the world views her that way, and I won't stop doing what I can to stop it.


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Post 346

Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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There it is. That’s the thesis.

-If it weren’t for the Brandens, the whole world would be taking Rand’s ideas seriously today. There would be only serious discussion of her wonderful ideas, which everyone would love, except that the Brandens have made it all about her sex life and her personality-

Total nonsense.

Jon


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Post 347

Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,why it did not  happen to you then.
You seem to take Rand's ideas seriously.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 9/17, 9:50pm)


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Post 348

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I will say it once more. The motive behind most Rand-bashing is her ideology. And, as I wrote, Rand had been unfairly attacked long before the Brandens ever broke with her. This attack inaccurately described Rand's ideas and called her individualist movement "a cult." It still does both. If the Brandens had never smeared Ayn Rand, this sort of attack would nonetheless still be with us.

It is true that the "cult" criticism was given powerful new life by the Brandens -- and that serious, scholarly discussion of Objectivism has been significantly improving despite their smears. Rand's critics -- with or without the Brandens -- would still be at it. Of course.

What those critics would not have been able to do without the Brandens' books is what the author of the COMMENTARY magazine article inspiring this thread did -- and this is just the most recent example. The Brandens have become the biggest sources of ad hominem against Rand. Whether their narratives are credible or not, this is simply a fact.

As I wrote, only this one aspect of Rand-bashing is taken on in my book. But it is one that has been growing, not diminishing. And, of all the unfair attacks on Objectivism, it's the ugliest one.

(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 9/18, 9:21am)


Post 349

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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James,

Is it conceivable that the facts alone of the affair between Ayn Rand and Nathaniel Branden, including the breakup, would be gist for this particular line of attack?

Or do you think this line of attack rests solely with how the Brandens wrote their books?

Michael


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Post 350

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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MSK,

The affair itself is not really the substance of the ad hominem attack. It is Rand's alleged "insane jealousy," her supposedly super-"controlling" nature, her alleged hypocrisy, her anger and "moralism," and the misery all of this is said to have caused, most importantly, O'Connor's alleged alcoholism, that is the thrust of it. All of it dubious and all sourced in the Brandens. Affairs are a dime a dozen, and Rand was hardly promiscuous.

(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 9/18, 11:12am)


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Post 351

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Really, my friend, you cannot possibly have read PARC and be asking that question. Perhaps it would be as disgusting to read the book as to quote the book in your house, but you're asking questions that require a book, well, PARC to be exact, to answer. The evidence is so overwhelming that there was a concerted effort to smear Rand and characterize her in a way that would justify the Brandens' prolonged deception of her that I can't believe you could honestly be wondering, after reading PARC, that the ad hominem attacks would have been the same with the simple knowledge that there was an affair. We're talking about baseless claims that Rand was humorless, incapable of compassion, ungrateful for help and grandiose about her independence, obsessive about cleanliness, slovenly about her own appearance, prone to irrational anger, repressing feelings of parental rejection, repressing scars from anti-Semitism, callous toward her husband to the point of driving him to drink, living a life of lies, authoritarian towards those around her, grossly ignorant of human psychology, pathologically jealous, insane on the subject of Nathaniel Branden, etc., etc., etc. NONE of this is based on anything one would call evidence aside from the Brandens' argument from authority (and which is even contradicted by their own observations) and all of it has been taken on faith because of the Brandens' status as authorities. Taken together they paint a picture of a woman that is designed to justify the Brandens' elaborate deception of Rand over years while omitting the fact that both Brandens were leading her down a labyrinth of Branden's supposed psychological problems that were supposedly preventing him from being able to have sex, with Rand or anyone else, and which kept Rand trying to counsel him out of what she thought was a real personal crisis. It's hard to debate the validity of a book's thesis with someone who has not read it. 


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Post 352

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan,

You said to Linz regarding the Valliant book:
So this is just a trip down memory lane? Are you making an argument here, or are you just venting?
Is this more than just a gotchya?  Is your point that a person should never ever change his position on anything, even when he encounters facts that require him to consider a subject anew?

Andy


Post 353

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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James and Casey,

I will post a more in-depth answer later (and I have read most of the book).

Just to stay on my point, I understand that you guys are saying, then, that those who hate Rand enough to write the kind of crap that started this thread would not have made use of the affair with a younger man and a break with him after being traded for a younger woman.

They only make use of this information in a derogatory manner because of the Branden books. As was stated, "affairs are a dime a dozen," so they simply would have ignored this kind of opportunity at a slur and stayed on the ideas.

Is that what you are saying?

Michael


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Post 354

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I do not think an affair under these circumstances is worthy of any critique, at all, and I for one proudly defend Rand on this very score.

I do think that conservative critics would have made use of even a noble affair -- but, as I say, I think that would be a great launching-off point for a discussion of Christianity's anti-life views on sex.

As you had asked earlier, wouldn't the critics have jumped on just the affair? I'd like to see liberals and academics try it with a straight face!

Marxists, hippies, New Agers, radical feminists, etc., would have a hard time articulating their complaint, I think.


(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 9/18, 8:54pm)


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Post 355

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
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James - I'm at p 207 & just taking a break. One thing I want to ask: In the Ideas in Actioninterview, in response to a curly question from you about "cultism," Leonard Peikoff says if you weren't friendly with him he would dismiss the question out of court. How friendly is friendly? Did Leonard have anything to do with PARC other than releasing the journals? Understand, I'm not saying it would undermine the book's credibility necessarily if he did have input, but I think all cards should be on the table, since honesty & transparency are over-arching issues in all of this. I'm finding your case compelling thus far, but am trying to look at it from every which way, including the possibility of a hatchet job for the sake of a hatchet job. Forgive me if you've dealt with this elsewhere, or in part of the book I haven't yet got to.

Linz

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Post 356

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 10:29pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

All cards -- most definitely --should be on the table, so I'm happy to answer it again, and in even greater detail for you.

I met Leonard in the early 80s when I was studying at NYU. I was then a Libertarian working weekends at LaissezFaire Books, and at the time also taking classes taught by such brains as Murray Rothbard (through the Center for Libertarian Studies) and Israel Kirzner. I would have to say that I hardly knew Peikoff when, in the late 80s, I was invited (I honestly don't know why) to participate in the weekly seminar he gave at his home in Southern California. We had the good fortune to read his masterful treatise OPAR before it was published. This was part of his very extensive editing process for the book -- discussing it essentially line-by-line with us gave HIM more ideas than we were able to input, I'm afraid. He dubbed us his "Class of '91." This seminar continued for a while even after the book was released, since he wanted to discuss many new interests like poetry and drama. And these were absolutely electric evenings!

But these seminars had stopped and I had not seen Leonard for some time when Holly and I invited him to participate in Ideas in Action. THAT was a blast! Holly and I also married about this time and Leonard attended one of the after-parties at my mother's home in Del Mar, California. (Ironically, in the same living room where, years earlier, Nathaniel Branden had waited to be taken to the premiere of his speech, "The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand.")

But, after that, I really didn't see Leonard for some time. It had been a few years, actually, when I first decided to release the first version of what became the first half of the book on the Internet, through the good graces of Mr. Fahy. I knew well Leonard's position on discussion of the Brandens, so Leonard was not involved in any way. I'd really "lost touch" with him in any event. During the year that it was posted, what was then a series of essays underwent certain tweeking due to the critical engagement that it generated. Indeed, the reaction was such that I decided to take it down for possible publication as a book.

It was only a couple of months after it had been taken down that I got a phone call from Leonard that quite surprised me. A "friend" (I still don't know who) had downloaded it and sent it to Leonard, it seems. "Why didn't you tell me about this, Jim?" "Well, you weren't my target audience, and, well, I knew how you felt about the idea of this kind of project..." "To be honest, Jim, when I first saw it, I said, 'Am I going to have a fight with Valliant now?'"

He read it all, he said, and told me that I would be "amazed" at how accurately I "got things," if only I could read Rand's notes on Mr. Branden. He offered them to me, telling me to use as much of it as I liked. I was later given full access and permission to use any of the materials at the Ayn Rand Archive. No strings attached. Though I offered more than once, he refused any royalty, fee, anything, for the use of Rand's notes. He never asked for any control over the project and did not even read the whole thing until after its publication and release earlier this year. It was I who declined his offers of any further help on the project.

I would describe my relationship with Leonard as that of teacher-grateful student. Although I've enjoyed many delightful personal experiences with him, and he has been the source of enormously helpful advice, alas, I cannot call him a close friend.

Though "friendly" we have always been.

BTW, I've never been affiliated with ARI.

(Edited by James S. Valliant on 9/19, 9:45am)


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Post 357

Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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Aha! I knew it! A Peikovian Randroid ARIan! Don't think I'm fooled by your edited-on disclaimer!! :-)

I do think Randroids—robotic, rationalistic, repressed rote-reciters—are a problem, an embarrassment to Objectivism, but one thing is clear from your book: Ayn Rand can't be blamed for them. You've certainly turned some bromides on their heads.

Linz

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Post 358

Monday, September 19, 2005 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Re: your claim that Randroids are an embarrassment to Objectivism, I disagree. They are an embarrassment to themselves.

I certainly don't want to high-jack this thread (!) so maybe someone would like to start one (it won't be me), but if we are individualists, if we understand that everyone, ultimately speaks for him/herself, isn't concern with anyone's being "an embarrassment to Objectivism" a form of collectivism? James makes it very clear that he is speaking for himself. Peikoff does the same. I do on my blog.

Most importantly, Rand did. And she requested that we do. "Please," she said.

Isn't that, indeed, the reason for a "closed system?" It isn't that we aren't "allowed" to speak for Objectivism, but that we have the good grace to speak for ourselves. Thus, if any of us are rationalistic, we take the fall (blaming "randroidism" or "ARIan" influences just allows the offender to get off the personal responsibility hook).

I wish I had the time and energy to expand on this. I don't. But I am interested in what you'll all say in reply.

Tom


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Post 359

Monday, September 19, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Bingo!

I particularly liked this remark you made ...
Most importantly, Rand did. And she requested that we do. "Please," she said.
This goes to show why what Miss Rand wrote and said is more important to Objectivism than how she lived.  Even if there is any truth to the stories of the group-think Rand demanded of the "Collective" and whatever the hubbub about her affair, that would not change one little bit the imperative of her request that each of us thinks for himself.  Either she spoke the truth or she did not.  If she did not live up to her words all the time in her life, well migosh, the great woman is human!  Who'd have thunk that? ;-)

All of which goes to my repeated point that the Rand-Branden feud that some here insist upon bringing into this forum is unimportant except to a woman and her husband already in the grave and another couple of geezers who will add up to not much more than a footnote to a footnote in the life of one of the great rescuers of philosophy in 20th century.

Andy


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