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Post 360

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

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Post 361

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 1:17pmSanction this postReply
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Here we go, back on the merry-go-round.  Ok, Bill, the "some values" that "determine your choice to think", how did they become values if NOT by the choice to think?  Are they innate?  Are they planted in man's head by god?  They are the result of what?  Futhermore, how does one know that they are values?

Until we get over this "hump", we'll just keep retreading the same ground on the other points.

Regards,
Michael


Post 362

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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I'm still doing an uptake on the posts, which are quite interesting to me.

Bill, I realize that you never specified what kind of determinism you were talking about, that was my point. I do believe that there is, in conversation at least, a distinction that has to be made between psychological determinism, and the notion of determinism in general. I think that comes to a nature/nurture issue.

The meaning of the words changes quite a bit, depending. I think it's the same, and even more so, when we try to talk about both.

The things you said that work in the middle ranges, well, I'm not so sure now.


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Post 363

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, you wrote, "Here we go, back on the merry-go-round. Ok, Bill, the "some values" that "determine your choice to think", how did they become values if NOT by the choice to think? Are they innate? Are they planted in man's head by god? They are the result of what? Futhermore, how does one know that they are values?

"Until we get over this "hump", we'll just keep retreading the same ground on the other points."

Well, I can only refer you to a quotation from Rand that you yourself cited in a previous post, to wit:

"Once you've acquired the rudiments of reason, you focus your mind consciously and volitionally. But how do you learn to focus it originally? In the same way an infant learns to focus his eyes. He is not born with eyes in focus; focusing his eyes is an acquired attribute, though, it's done automatically. (I'm not sure whether it's entirely automatic; but from what we can observe, no volition on the infant's part is necessary.) Why does he learn to focus them? Because he's trying to see--to perceive. Similarly, an infant or young child learns to focus his mind in the form of wanting to know something--to understand clearly. That is the beginning from which a fully conscious, rational focus comes."

There's your answer: Wanting to know something--to understand clearly--is the value that determines one's choice to focus.

- Bill

Post 364

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

If only you could see the validity of AR's formulation of free will so clearly.  It is clear we can't go much further and we will have to agree to disagree.  At the end of the day, you will always come back with: "Yeah, but one must value making that choice....",  and I can't seem to convince that the source of one's value-judgments--the one primary choice--is the choice to think.  Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

Take care,
Michael

(Edited by Michael Moeller on 11/11, 8:50pm)


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Post 365

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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Bill has answered an awful lot of questions and answered them well. In the final analysis, even the so-called "primary choice" of thinking or not thinking, Bill shows, rests on an antecedent desire or value: wanting to know something -- to understand clearly. What's more, he supports it with a quote from Rand -- the very quote that one of his opponents tried to use earlier to ~refute~ him! And yet, there is no concession. The mind boggles...

What Bill did not say is, I think, a crucial additional point: the desire to know and understand is a ~natural~ desire, part of every conscious living organism's drive for efficacy and control over its own life, to promote its survival and to avoid harm.

The question that Bill's opponents need to ask themselves is this: if the drive to know and understand (that antecedes choosing to think) does not always win out in human beings, why not? It must be that, in some cases, humans value something else more. But what something else?

I'll supply one example that I think plays an important role in this. For children and adults, there are situations where danger seems so imminent that pursuing mental clarity (by thinking, remaining perceptive, etc.) seems to undermine their survival and expose them to harm, rather than promoting their survival. (Branden has discussed this problem in some of his earlier post-Split writings.) Evading, blanking out, etc., seems to be a better survival tool -- at least, in that instance -- than focusing. For a child, this may be the case, and blanking out from time to time may in fact be necessary, if one's environment is sufficiently irrational. And this is enough to get many people started on the road to trying to juggle focusing with evading, as the situation seems to dictate, according to which better promotes their survival and well-being. But as adults, we don't need to blank out in order to survive, and many of us find ourselves saddled with a bad habit that is, for some, very hard to break. (Part of the role of psychotherapy, as Branden points out, is to educate clients to the fact that they ~no longer need~ to pursue a focus-dropping survival strategy.)

But note: the one, over-riding value, that is inborn in ~all~ conscious animals, is the drive to preserve one's survival and well-being. Humans, too, naturally seek to do this, whether by seeking clarity and understanding through focusing or by seeking mental shelter from threatening reality through evading or dropping focus. ~This value~, which pre-exists ~all~ instances of mental focusing, is what the choice to focus is based on. Knowledge (however flawed or misinterpreted) of a situation and the desire to use whatever strategy ~seems~ most likely to enhance survival and well-being and avoid harm. This is how we are built! We cannot ~not~ act in this manner. (Just try not to!)

So, before going off on another round of barraging Bill with attempts to defend your indefensible positions, please reflect (as above) on the human condition and human nature. We are not that different from the other animals in how we select from among alternatives. Our ~big~ difference and advantage is our ~conceptual~ faculties that allow us to envision alternatives to the concrete here-and-now. But that difference and advantage does ~not~ allow us to suspend our nature and natural desire: to pursue survival and well-being and avoid harm. We just have more expanded, nuanced ways of doing it -- including dropping focus, when/if a situation seems (or once seemed) to require it -- and including therapy to help us realize that dropping focus is no longer needed (if it ever was).

REB  


Post 366

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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Am glad someone finally bothered bringing it up - we are an 'add on' specie... that is, there is an ancestry in our development as humans which, to some primal degree at least, moves us just as it moves those lesser organisms from which we evolved...




[and why didn't I mention this before myself? because, modest guy I am, I hate having to tell everybody everything... ;-)] 

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/12, 7:06am)

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/12, 10:37am)


Post 367

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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Bill:
     I asked, to put it more succinctly, "Given: the choice to think in terms of 'need' vs 'want/desire' (where one's aware that they conflict), a value-set 'determines' which way the 'choice' is going to go, correct?"
    You respond:
"...in that case one would simply weigh the relative merits of the two alternatives (i.e., the costs and benefits) and decide which is most persuing."
     Uh, Bill, this 'weighing' you bring up, has now replaced *my* presumed basic-choice with a new, different one, making mine a derivative set of alternatives. That's cheating.

     This 'weighing' (which itself would be a deeper level 'choice' to now discuss) can be done with a 'heavier' weighting value-bias on the 'choice' to pay attention to need, or, with a heavier' weighting value-bias on the 'choice' of desire. What type of value-sets would or even could determine this weighting (thereby determining the cost/benefit answer) for our...decision? --- Further, we may be falsely assuming that this would be done because we see the need to, rather than than not done because we desire to avoid it. Right here, things are getting deep. Regardless, let's assume such...

     Given the acceptance of this new, additional, 'choice' (or, 'decision') to weigh the c/b of the considered choices, wouldn't there be an other pre-determining 'value-set' necessary to apply to the process itself of 'weighing' (i.e; 'choosing' how to decide which derivative choice to accept)?  ALL 'choices' we make are value-determined, including whether or not to weigh the c/b of our derivative choices, no?

     Further, in such 'weighing,' is not there maybe something else, also, that value-determines what 'weighting' bias is applicable to each side, which may or may not change sooner or later?

     Given that all choices are value-determined, including weigh(t)ing the value-worth of derivative choices (thereby including acting on need vs. desire), this seems to be a potentially never-ending descending staircase of 'explanations' for a determined-volition decisions about the choices it presumably controls.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 11/12, 8:21am)


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Post 368

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 8:53amSanction this postReply
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Roger,

I didn't think the quote needed refutation.  So, in order that your mind doesn't stay "boggled", I will answer it for you.  A desire to know or any other desire, does mean that one will focus the mind in order to satisfy that desire.  I may have the desire for food, but does that mean I will chose to think and go to work and earn my living?  I have a desire to know the law, but does that mean I will exercise my capacity to think in order to learn it.

You make a host of other fallacies in your reasoning.  "Evading or blanking out" of a painful trauma is not the same as using your mind to discover values.  Blanking out a negative (like a trauma) is not the same as pursing a positive (a value).  NB makes that point many times in his books in just that context, the absence of a negative is not the same as the presence of a positive.  Hell, doesn't he focus on both of those in his method of psychological treatment?  Hello, McFly, did you read the surrounding sentences in his books?

The reason I didn't continue the discussion is that my original question was not answered.   (Remember --"how does one receive the  'some values' that determine one's choice to think?--Sorry, desire does not cut it.)   I didn't feel the need to go around and around again asking the question--what would be the purpose for me?  So I dropped it..  Please, Roger, if you didn't like my arguments, fine. Maybe you should bone-up a little on difference between a desire and a value (and it seems a host of other things) before you accuse me of evasion. 

Regards,
Michael

(Edited by Michael Moeller on 11/12, 8:54am)


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Post 369

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Roger says:

"What Bill did not say is, I think, a crucial additional point: the desire to know and understand is a ~natural~ desire, part of every conscious living organism's drive for efficacy and control over its own life, to promote its survival and to avoid harm."

No. Every conscious living organism does not have a desire to know and understand. Not even every person has this desire, let alone banana slugs or my pug Caesar.

Roger also says:

"But note: the one, over-riding value, that is inborn in ~all~ conscious animals, is the drive to preserve one's survival and well-being. Humans, too, naturally seek to do this, whether by seeking clarity and understanding through focusing or by seeking mental shelter from threatening reality through evading or dropping focus. ~This value~, which pre-exists ~all~ instances of mental focusing, is what the choice to focus is based on. Knowledge (however flawed or misinterpreted) of a situation and the desire to use whatever strategy ~seems~ most likely to enhance survival and well-being and avoid harm. This is how we are built! We cannot ~not~ act in this manner. (Just try not to!)"

So now there is no such thing as altruism? We "cannot" be self-sacrificial?

Curioser and curioser.



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Post 370

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Casey,

I see a problem of scope in your criticism of Roger's arguments.

I believe that when he says "drive," he is talking about pre-perceptual, perceptual and low-level conceptual mental activity.

You are talking about mid-level on up.

From mid-level on up is it possible to make the choices you indicate, like altruism. Not lower. How on earth can you choose what you don't yet comprehend on any level? A choice implies an alternative, which implies knowledge or perception.

Can you imagine a 2 year old choosing altruism as a way of life? That's for later.

Michael


Post 371

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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MSK:

Then why did he end with the challenge: "Just try not to!"? Was he talking to two-year-olds? Sorry, but I think Roger has a problem with scope, not I.


Post 372

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

Well, at least mental scope is on the table right now. I still suspect that Roger was talking on the level I mentioned (even in his challenge), but I prefer to let him speak for himself. He is eminently qualified to do that and I am curious as to what he will say.

btw - Do you have any thoughts on mental scope, volition and values?

Michael


Edit to Roger - Have you noticed the low level of reasoning of one of your critics? I especially liked this gem.
You make a host of other fallacies in your reasoning.  "Evading or blanking out" of a painful trauma is not the same as using your mind to discover values.  Blanking out a negative (like a trauma) is not the same as pursing a positive (a value). 
Dayaamn what a load of horseshit! Yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap.

On top of this guy missing your whole point of how some bad mental habits are formed, he cannot show even one fallacy in your reasoning, much less the plural case, except to puts words in your mouth and twist your meaning to suit some irrational itch or other.

I disagree a lot with Casey, but he, at least, is clear in his views (and biases). We even find common ground to discuss ideas sometimes.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/12, 1:31pm)


Post 373

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Do you have any thoughts on mental scope, volition and values?
 
I don't know about him, Michael, but I for one am against them. :)

rde
Just Do It




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Post 374

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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I thought it would be obvious to readers of Branden that evading and behaving altruistically are misguided survival strategies. Unless one has totally subverted one's desire to remain alive, and is consistently bent on self-destruction, that is ~all~ that evasion and altruism are used for -- a misguided attempt to enhance one's chances for survival and avoid harm.

Michael K. has a point: we learn evasion as children, and there might be some actual tactical survival value in it at that age, though once we're adults, we don't need it any more, even as a crutch. So, yes, I was saying that the drive to understand and the tactic of evasion both function perhaps necessarily in the service of survival when we are young. However, when people use evasion or altruism as adults, they ~still~ do it because they ~think~ it serves their well-being, even though it really does not.

And in reply to Michael M., I was ~not~ trying to refute the Rand quote. I was pointing out that Bill Dwyer used the very Rand quote to ~support~ his position and answer your criticisms that ~you~ were using in a vain attempt to ~refute~ his position. Next time, please try to read more carefully.

As for the difference between desire and value, there isn't much. A value is that which one acts to gain and/or keep, and desire is one's response toward that which one values, and which motivates one to act to gain and/or keep it. We have a built-in value: to pursue our survival and well-being, and once we believe, rightly or wrongly, that something fulfills the requirements of that value, we naturally desire that thing -- be it focusing or evasion, egoistic behavior or altruistic behavior.

Additional comments added 5PM PST 11/12 -- I see now that Michael M. somehow got the idea that I accused him of evasion in my post #365. I challenge him or anyone else to point out even the faintest suggestion that I have made such an accusation. If the shoe fits, he is welcome to wear it, of course, but such a claim was the furthest thing from my mind. <sigh> I am inclined to agree with Michael K's comments (post 372) about Michael K. At the very least, Michael K. seems set on automatic pilot for misunderstanding and misreading what other people say....REB

(Edited by Roger Bissell on 11/12, 5:01pm)


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Post 375

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Roger,

I know you were not trying to refute the AR quote, I said there was no need for me to refute it because he was misusing it.  Her point: that one does not jump out of the womb fully armed with a rational focus, she infers that it takes development, and that the initial realizing of its functionality is only the beginning of the development.

This in no way supports the idea that values determine the choice to think.  Whatever one's desires, it does not necessarily mean that one will act to fulfill them, i.e. chose to think.  Yes, they are motivators or inhibitors, but they are not determinants.  Don't you see the difference?  And let's be careful not to conflate innate desires, such as hunger, with goals, such as becoming a lawyer.  The former is automatic/involuntary, the latter is product of choice as well.

The same can be said for one's social environment, it can be a powerful motivator (or inhibitor) as in a capitalist (or collectivist) society, but it does not determine whether one will think or not.  You write that we "have a built-in value"--No, we have a "built-in" capacity, which we have to exercise by our own volition.   AR writes in "The Objectivist Ethics" (VOS):
Nothing is given to man on earth except a potential and the material on which to actualize it.  The potential is a superlative machine: his consciousness; but it is a machine without a spark plug, a machine of which his own will has to be the spark plug, the self-starter and the driver; he has to discover how to use it and he has to keep it in constant action....But everything he needs or desires has to be learned, discovered and produced by him--by his own choice, by his own effort, by his own mind....
Do you see the HUGE difference?  Anyway, Roger, no hard feelings.  I was a little disturbed that you equated my walking away from the argument with evasion.  I did not appreciate that.  I just did not feel like retracing the same circle with Bill, as the argument keep clearly revolving around *automatic values* (in my mind).  So I thanked him for the discussion and moved on.  That's all.

Best Regards,
Michael


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Post 376

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

I criticize your ideas on another thread and all of sudden you start name calling and making moral denunciations of me?  Is that how you approach somebody who disagrees with you?  Yes, I called your ideas "mush", because they are. If you're so certain of them, why all the name calling and attacks on my "honesty"?  Why the belligerent defensiveness? 

You said you would stop addressing me, then you start taking potshots while pretending to address other people.  Some courage you have.

Please, stop the small and weak attacks by calling me a "Randroid" or "dishonest", you are just making yourself look foolish.  If you have real arguments, then by all means step up and present them.  If you think I am unfair in my argument style, then ignore me--but stop the childish and cowardly potshots.

Michael


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Post 377

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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Well Michael M

Looks like we have a difference of opinion. You think my ideas are mush ("because they just are").

I think your ideas are horseshit. (Well, maybe just because they are.)

Michael


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Post 378

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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In Post 367, John Dailey wrote,

"Bill: I asked, to put it more succinctly, 'Given: the choice to think in terms of "need" vs "want/desire" (where one's aware that they conflict), a value-set "determines" which way the "choice" is going to go, correct?' You respond: '...in that case one would simply weigh the relative merits of the two alternatives (i.e., the costs and benefits) and decide which is most [worth] pursuing.'

"Uh, Bill, this 'weighing' you bring up, has now replaced *my* presumed basic-choice with a new, different one, making mine a derivative set of alternatives. That's cheating. This 'weighing' (which itself would be a deeper level 'choice' to now discuss) can be done with a 'heavier' weighting value-bias on the 'choice' to pay attention to need, or, with a heavier' weighting value-bias on the 'choice' of desire. What type of value-sets would or even could determine this weighting (thereby determining the cost/benefit answer) for our...decision?"

John, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Could you put your point more directly and simply and perhaps give an example or two to illustrate it? Here's how I interpreted what you were saying originally. Suppose you are on a diet to lose weight and chocolate cake is not on the diet, but you love chocolate cake. You can choose according to your (immediate) "desires" and eat the cake, or you can choose according to your (long-range) "needs," and stay on the diet.

My point was that your choice to do either is determined by weighing the satisfaction of eating the cake against your longer-range desire to lose weight. You may decide that staying on the diet is too difficult - that it isn't worth the sacrifice that you have to make - or you may decide that you can tolerate the sacrifice and that staying on the diet is more important. Whichever decision you make will be determined by which alternative you value most. Your decision will be based on the perceived costs and benefits - on what you're getting in return for what you're giving up. Another example is buying a car. Whether you buy it or not depends on what you believe you're getting in return for what you have to pay. What determines your choice? Your evaluation of the costs and benefits. If the price is too high, you won't buy it. If it isn't too high, you will.

It's the same with choosing to think or not to think. How much value do you place on focusing your mind in a given situation. If you choose not to think, then you've made a decision that in that situation the choice to think isn't worth the effort. If you do choose to think, then you've decided that it is worth the effort.

I take it that you disagree with this analysis, but I'm not sure exactly why.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 11/12, 4:01pm)


Post 379

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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As Branden, and others, have pointed out, there are levels or degrees of focusing - or thinking, if you wish - and as such would make much differences on the attention given to the respective issues of cognition....

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