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Post 20

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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Joel, why am I not surprised that you would side with the Copenhagen interpretation - you who believe that the universe requires a creator, because it cannot exist eternally, while the creator, a disembodied consciousness, does not require a creator, because he/she can exist eternally, and that this supernatural non-entity is the fountainhead of morality, whose arbitrary edicts we're obliged to obey, lest we suffer the consequences after we die.

Little wonder that you, who believe in this fairy-tale hash of contradictions, should now weigh in on the side of physical mysticism, just as you have on the side of spiritual mysticism. Why wouldn't you believe in a radioactive sample that is simultaneously decayed and not decayed, a glass vessel of poison that is neither broken nor unbroken, and a cat that is both dead and alive, while being neither alive nor dead? Given all of that, it is actually a step up for you to believe that an electron can be both a particle and a wave at the same time.

You write,
"Common sense" is based in the good old ("classical") logic, not in the often counter-intuitive principles and postulates of quantum mechanics.
To the extent that the principles and postulates of quantum mechanics are incompatible with "good old ('classical') logic," they are incompatible with the laws of identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction, and are therefore incompatible with reason.
In the Schroedinger's cat experiment, if the disintegrating bit of radioactive substance is of the size of the buckminsterfullerene molecule (or smaller), the laws and axioms of quantum mechanics indeed apply with full validity, and Schroedinger's description is deemed as fundamentally correct.
How can they be fundamentally correct when the violate the laws of logic, on which all science and inferential reasoning is based? The obvious answer is: they cannot.
The double slit experiment is also something to take into account when considering the validity of QM. Again: it has been validated by experiments.
What has been validated by experiment? The appearance of a particle-wave duality? Yes, of course, but that is not what we're discussing. I'm not questioning the evidence yielded by the double-slit experiment; I'm questioning the validity of the Copenhagen interpretation, which fails to explain it. The fact that experimental evidence exists to be explained does not mean that any explanation will suffice, no matter how contradictory it is. An explanation should do what it is supposed to do; it should accomplish its cognitive purpose, which is to explain what is otherwise unintelligible. QM fails abysmally in that regard.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 4/11, 9:02pm)


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Post 21

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Bill:
Little wonder that you, who believe in this fairy-tale hash of contradictions, should now weigh in on the side of physical mysticism, just as you have on the side of spiritual mysticism. Why wouldn't you believe in a radioactive sample that is simultaneously decayed and not decayed, a glass vessel of poison that is neither broken nor unbroken, and a cat that is both dead and alive, while being neither alive nor dead? Given all of that, it is actually a step up for you to believe that an electron can be both a particle and a wave at the same time.

You're merely displaying your ignorance of physics with such nonsense. Today no physicist believes that the cat would be dead or alive at the same time. Schrödingers thought experiment dates from 1935, when it still wasn't clear how we can get from a quantummechanical description with superposition of states (which has been proved beyond any doubt) to a macroscopical world where obviously no such superposition is possible and his thought experiment was meant to highlight that problem. In those early years one of the theories was that it was the act of observation by a conscious person that destroyed the superposition, but that was of course a very unsatisfactory theory with its own problems. Now we know that such a superposition disappears very quickly by decoherence and that it will not reach macroscopic states (except in some specially designed sophisticated experiments).
To the extent that the principles and postulates of quantum mechanics are incompatible with "good old ('classical') logic," they are incompatible with the laws of identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction, and are therefore incompatible with reason.

Name one principle or postulate of quantum mechanics that is incompatible with the laws of identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction.
What has been validated by experiment? The appearance of a particle-wave duality? Yes, of course, but that is not what we're discussing. I'm not questioning the evidence yielded by the double-slit experiment; I'm questioning the validity of the Copenhagen interpretation, which fails to explain it.

And how does the Copenhagen interpretation of the double-split experiment fail to explain it? Do you really know what the evidence of the double-split experiment is? The main conclusion is not that there is a particle-wave duality, althought that may be also an aspect of that experiment. It is the unequivocal evidence that a superposition of states can exist (even if you may give it a different name).
The fact that experimental evidence exists to be explained does not mean that any explanation will suffice, no matter how contradictory it is.

What is contradictory in the QM explanation of the double-split experiment?
An explanation should do what it is supposed to do; it should accomplish its cognitive purpose, which is to explain what is otherwise unintelligible.

It's only unintelligible to the uneducated layman.

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Post 22

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Cal,
You are showing your ignorance of the philosophy involved with the interpretations of quantum mechanics.  To look at only one of your errors, you say:
And how does the Copenhagen interpretation of the double-split experiment fail to explain it? Do you really know what the evidence of the double-split experiment is? The main conclusion is not that there is a particle-wave duality, althought that may be also an aspect of that experiment. It is the unequivocal evidence that a superposition of states can exist (even if you may give it a different name).
Let's look at how superposition "explains" the double-slit experiment.  According to Albert, in Quantum Mechanics and Experience:
"Electrons passing through this apparatus [the same, in principle, to the double-slit apparatus], in so far as we are able to fathom the matter, do not take route h [one possible route] and do not take route s [the other possible root] and do not take both of those routes and do not take neither or those routes; and the trouble is that those four possibilities are simply all of the logical possibilities that we have any notion whatever of how to entertain! ... The name of that new mode (which is just a name for something we don't understand) is superposition."  [Emphasis in the original.]

You said to Bill:
Name one principle or postulate of quantum mechanics that is incompatible with the laws of identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction.
The fundamental postulate of superposition is incompatible with the law of excluded middle; either the particle followed a particular path, or it didn't.  There ain't no other choice.  Even Quine accepted this, and said goodbye to the law of excluded middle.

You said:
Today no physicist believes that the cat would be dead or alive at the same time.
Today, most physicists don't think about this problem.  Most practicing physicists are instrumentalists.  But those who actually think about the interpretations of QM still have questions.  But, judging from your remarks in the previous post, you aren't one of them.
Glenn


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Post 23

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Bill- There's probably something legitimate to be said in defense of Heisenberg and Schrodinger's comments on probability and causality, but I'll leave that to those debating about dimensions and coordinates wrt Schrodinger's Equation. However, on your comment on Heisenberg's quote regarding math: “It is useful to remember that even in the most precise part of science, in mathematics, we cannot avoid using concepts that involve contradictions.”

The context of this quote makes clear what he's referring to. Immediately following his comment about math and contradictions, Heisenberg had written: "For instance, it is well known that the concept of infinity leads to contradictions that have been analysed, but it would be practically impossible to construct the main parts of mathematics without this concept."

Infinity had been an ugly stepchild of math since the ancient Greeks, with Zeno's paradoxes causing problems for mathematicians even after calculus and analysis became implicitly reliant on the concept. (Perhaps our new member Leibniz would care to comment? :) ) Only in the late 1800s did Cantor truly address the infinite, spawning an era of reformulating mathematics based upon set theory. Math could then safely incorporate the infinite - but only by opening up a new generation of possible contradictions in the form of vicious circle paradoxes such as Russell's antinomy. What Heisenberg said about mathematics is largely correct; the only thing to really criticize about his comment is that newer math can now at least relegate possible contradictions to more obscure areas (eg. vicious circle situations can be far less commonly encountered than the infinitesimal).


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Post 24

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Let's look at how superposition "explains" the double-slit experiment. According to Albert, in Quantum Mechanics and Experience:
"Electrons passing through this apparatus [the same, in principle, to the double-slit apparatus], in so far as we are able to fathom the matter, do not take route h [one possible route] and do not take route s [the other possible root] and do not take both of those routes and do not take neither or those routes; and the trouble is that those four possibilities are simply all of the logical possibilities that we have any notion whatever of how to entertain! ... The name of that new mode (which is just a name for something we don't understand) is superposition."

This is not so much an explanation as a (somewhat confusing) description of an experimental observation (probably with a Mach-Zehnder interferometer). Let us take for simplicity the double-slit experiment. When you have a steady stream of photons or electrons, you'll observe an interference pattern on the detector screen. So far so good, this can be explained by the interference of the wavelike particles going through both splits. But when we emit a single particle at a time, instead of a steady stream, we will still observe an interference pattern that is consistent with the position of the two slits, if we wait long enough. This is really weird: how can a single electron interfere with itself? That would imply that it would go through both slits at the same time, somehow it must "know" the positions of both slits to produce a pattern consistent with the position of those slits. So we place a detector near one of the slits to determine the path of the electron: if the detector gives a signal we know that the electron went through the corresponding slit, else it went through the other slit. But as soon as we do that, the interference pattern disappears. So either we know where the electron goes, but then we see no interference, or we don't know where it is, and then we see interference as if the electron is all over the place.

There have been designed many clever variants of this experiment, like those with the Mach-Zehnder interferometer, but the results are always the same: if we have no information about the paths of the particles, we get an interference pattern which in classical terms can only be explained as if the particle takes all possible paths at the same time (which classical particles can't do of course). But as soon as we get any information about the position of the particle, the interference pattern disappears.

Observe that so far we haven't formulated any theory about this weird behavior, only described the results of the experiments. The point is that those experiments show that Mother Nature is extremely weird in the subatomic realm, there is no way around the facts. If this seems to violate all your notions about what is reasonable and logical, blame reality, not QM.

The fundamental postulate of superposition is incompatible with the law of excluded middle; either the particle followed a particular path, or it didn't. There ain't no other choice. Even Quine accepted this, and said goodbye to the law of excluded middle.

To quote Rand: check your premises. Your premise is that a particle has to follow a particular path. However, you shouldn't confuse an idea based on empirical evidence with a logical necessity, your evidence may be incomplete. This premise is based on your everyday experience that moving things always have an exactly defined trajectory. This experience is so deeply ingrained in your world view that you think that it is an absolute truth. Just like the idea that something is either a wave or a particle (or do you think that the fact that a thing can be both is also is incompatible with the law of excluded middle?). However, what once seemed to be self-evident turns out not to be so. The ultimate arbiter of a theory is reality, and a theory built on that superposition principle is by far the most successful and accurate theory of all times, the predictions of which have been verified up to fifteen decimal places. This is vastly more accurate than any intuitive folk physics theory that we use to move around the world and that so many people stubbornly cling to.

Today, most physicists don't think about this problem. Most practicing physicists are instrumentalists. But those who actually think about the interpretations of QM still have questions. But, judging from your remarks in the previous post, you aren't one of them.

As long as there isn't any way to distinguish experimentally between different interpretations, such interpretations have no real meaning. At most they can fulfill a psychological need to have some visualization of what is happening, but they shouldn't be confused with reality. So there have been many different interpretations of such superposition states as described above, for example by imagining that the particle spreads itself out so that it can go through both slits, or by particles going backward in time etc. No matter what interpretation you choose, it will necessarly have some "weird" aspects, as reality itself is weird. Such interpretations don't belong to the theory of QM, however. It would therefore also be wrong to say that the particle is at two places at the same time, because QM is unequivocal: if you measure the position it will always be found at one place and not in two places at the same time, and this is also in agreement with the experiment. The rest is fantasy. As Feynman said: shut up and calculate!

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Post 25

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
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Wow. I sure as hell haven't seen any mathematics yet from the armchair warriors and objectivists "scientists". If you wish do disprove a field of science that has given you the very computer you type your objections out on, then you best put aside philosophy for the moment. Derive from reality what you will, but as Fenman said, "reality is what she is." Reality proves you wrong, but please, at your will, jump in here with some actual physics whenever you feel like it. Oh, I see, your knowledge of physics is limited to what you read in a John Gribbin book. So far, I must say it looks that way. Of course, I could be wrong...anyone feel up to refuting Schroedinger or Heisenberg?

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Post 26

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron, you wrote,
Bill- There's probably something legitimate to be said in defense of Heisenberg and Schrodinger's comments on probability and causality, but I'll leave that to those debating about dimensions and coordinates wrt Schrodinger's Equation.
Okay, but just remember that probability is an epistemological concept; causality, a metaphysical one.
However, on your comment on Heisenberg's quote regarding math: “It is useful to remember that even in the most precise part of science, in mathematics, we cannot avoid using concepts that involve contradictions.”

The context of this quote makes clear what he's referring to. Immediately following his comment about math and contradictions, Heisenberg had written: "For instance, it is well known that the concept of infinity leads to contradictions that have been analysed, but it would be practically impossible to construct the main parts of mathematics without this concept."
We have to make a distinction between potential infinity, which is a legitimate mathematical concept, and actual infinity, which does involve a contradiction, and is not required for mathematical reasoning. By "potential infinity" in this context, I simply mean that if, for example, you start counting, there is no theoretical limit on the number of units that you can continue to add to the number that you've already counted (even though there is a physical limit on how long you can continue the process). However far you count, you will necessarily be at a finite number. The theoretical potential for adding an additional unit always exists, but an infinite number of such units does not.
Infinity had been an ugly stepchild of math since the ancient Greeks, with Zeno's paradoxes causing problems for mathematicians even after calculus and analysis became implicitly reliant on the concept. (Perhaps our new member Leibniz would care to comment? :) )
Perhaps he would. Wilhelm, it seems that you have another admirer! As for Zeno, his paradoxes can be resolved simply by recognizing that they confuse potential with actual division. Even if we assume that potential division is infinite, actual division is not. And it is actual division that must be demonstrated for Zeno’s paradoxes to work.

The problem, as Zeno presents it, is that in order to cross a given distance, you must cross half of it, but that in order to cross half of it, you must in turn cross of half of that, and then half of that, etc., ad infinitum. So, you will have an infinite series of halves that you can never cross. You can never cross them, because the number you must cross is infinite, and to cross them would imply the completion of a finite process.

The fallacy in this argument is that although any distance can be divided in half; in order to divide it in half, you need the initial distance to start with, which means that in order to divide any subsequent portion of it, you need that portion, and so on. In other words, the half presupposes the whole; the whole doesn't presuppose the half. This means that at any stage of your process of division, you're always at some finite number of divisions.

To get an infinite number, you'd have to extend your division for an infinite period of time, which is impossible. Therefore, you can never at any time arrive at an infinite number of divisions, which you'd have to do in order to claim that there are an infinite number of them to cross.

Only in the late 1800s did Cantor truly address the infinite, spawning an era of reformulating mathematics based upon set theory. Math could then safely incorporate the infinite - but only by opening up a new generation of possible contradictions in the form of vicious circle paradoxes such as Russell's antinomy.
For those unfamiliar with it, Russell's antinomy is a logical paradox, often couched in terms of "the set of all sets that are not members of themselves", the pertinent question being, is that set a member of itself? If it is, then it isn't; and if it isn't, then it is. Hence, the paradox.

In the February 1984 issue of his journal, The Objectivist Forum, Harry Binswanger explains a simpler version of the antinomy, as follows: "'The statement I am now making is false.' Is this statement, Russell would ask, true or false? If it is true, then what it asserts is in fact the case. But what it asserts is that it itself is false. Therefore if it is true, then it is false. (And if it is false, then what it asserts is incorrect -- i.e., it is not false.)"

As Binswanger notes, Russell purports to solve this paradox by classifying statements according to different types. Type 1 statements refer to objects (e.g., "Cats are interesting"); type 2 statements refer to statements about objects (e.g., "Statements about cats are interesting"); type 3 statements refer to statements of statements about objects (e.g., "Statements about statements about cats are interesting").

In order to avoid the kind of self-referential paradox illustrated above, Russell postulated that a statement can refer only to statements of a lower type. Therefore, according to Russell, since the above example -- "The statement I am now making is false" -- refers to a statement of the same type (because it refers to itself), it is illegitimate.

So, what, if anything, is wrong with Russell's solution? Well, Binswanger notes that it would prohibit such ordinary statements as, "Every sentence has a subject and a verb." He also observes that since Russell's theory states that all statements must conform to the theory, the theory is self-contradictory, because, in referring to all statements, it refers to itself, something that it claims no statement can do. Therefore, by Russell's own theory, his theory is illegitimate.

What, then, is the solution to this antinomy or self-referential paradox, if Russell's solution fails? Well, observe that, while a statement can refer to itself (contra Russell), it must, if it is to be meaningful, be capable of being either true or false. To make this point intuitively obvious, Binswanger asks us to consider the statement, "The statement I am now making is true." Is that statement true? No. Is it false? No again, for there is no actual (i.e., meaningful) statement here that can be considered true or false.

This is easy to see if one realizes that in order to verify the statement, "The statement I am now making is true," one must verify its referent -- the statement to which it refers -- which in turn necessitates that one verify the referent of its referent, and so on. We are thus lead to a vicious regress. Since there is no ultimate referent, no verification (or falsification) is possible. Exactly the same reasoning applies to "The statement I am now making is false". There is no self-referential inconsistency, because there is no ultimate referent -- no meaningful statement that qualifies as being either true or false.

The answer to the paradox that Russell and others have found so insoluble is to recognize that it is meaningless to talk about the set of all sets as being either a member of itself or not a member of itself. The answer is not to declare arbitrarily as a kind of logical "patch" that sets, classes or statements cannot refer to themselves, which is what Russell has done.

There are no contradictions in reality or in legitimate theories about reality, whether in the micro world of sub-atomic physics, in the macro world of everyday life, or in the theoretical world of mathematics.

- Bill

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Post 27

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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Cal wrote,
Observe that so far we haven't formulated any theory about this weird behavior, only described the results of the experiments. The point is that those experiments show that Mother Nature is extremely weird in the subatomic realm, there is no way around the facts. If this seems to violate all your notions about what is reasonable and logical, blame reality, not QM.
No one is "blaming" reality for being weird, Cal. Nor is anyone disputing the experimental evidence, or saying that it can't be what it is, because it isn't reasonable or logical. Please don't accuse us of making that kind of straw-man argument!

Glenn wrote,
The fundamental postulate of superposition is incompatible with the law of excluded middle; either the particle followed a particular path, or it didn't. There ain't no other choice. Even Quine accepted this, and said goodbye to the law of excluded middle.
You replied,
To quote Rand: check your premises. Your premise is that a particle has to follow a particular path. However, you shouldn't confuse an idea based on empirical evidence with a logical necessity, your evidence may be incomplete. This premise is based on your everyday experience that moving things always have an exactly defined trajectory. This experience is so deeply ingrained in your world view that you think that it is an absolute truth.
Let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that a particle can follow a particular path or trajectory and at the same time not follow it? - because if you are, then this does violate the laws of logic. As I understand a wave and a particle, they are two different entities with mutually incompatible characteristics. If you say that something can be both a wave and a particle, then you'll have to explain how that is possible. Again, the purpose of a scientific study is not simply to record what happens or to predict what will happen, but to explain it - to make it intelligible.
However, what once seemed to be self-evident turns out not to be so. The ultimate arbiter of a theory is reality, and a theory built on that superposition principle is by far the most successful and accurate theory of all times, the predictions of which have been verified up to fifteen decimal places. This is vastly more accurate than any intuitive folk physics theory that we use to move around the world and that so many people stubbornly cling to.
We are arguing apples and oranges here. I am not saying, and I don't think Glenn is either, that QM cannot make accurate predictions. All we're saying is that the ability to make predictions does not explain what is going on; it doesn't make it intelligible to the understanding - at least not to mine.

Glenn wrote,
Today, most physicists don't think about this problem. Most practicing physicists are instrumentalists. But those who actually think about the interpretations of QM still have questions. But, judging from your remarks in the previous post, you aren't one of them.
You replied,
As long as there isn't any way to distinguish experimentally between different interpretations, such interpretations have no real meaning.
That's simply not true, Cal.
At most they can fulfill a psychological need to have some visualization of what is happening, but they shouldn't be confused with reality.
No, they fulfill a rational need to understand what is going on.
So there have been many different interpretations of such superposition states as described above, for example by imagining that the particle spreads itself out so that it can go through both slits, or by particles going backward in time etc. No matter what interpretation you choose, it will necessarily have some "weird" aspects, as reality itself is weird.
Weird is one thing; self-contradiction, another.
Such interpretations don't belong to the theory of QM, however. It would therefore also be wrong to say that the particle is at two places at the same time, because QM is unequivocal: if you measure the position it will always be found at one place and not in two places at the same time, and this is also in agreement with the experiment. The rest is fantasy. As Feynman said: shut up and calculate!
Again, no one is saying that you shouldn't "calculate" or that you shouldn't endeavor to make accurate predictions, but you still need a theory that resolves the paradoxes, which is something that superposition, despite its instrumentalist and predictive advantages, doesn't give you.

- Bill


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Post 28

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
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This thread is going in a direction that totally reminds me of Feynman:

"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as she is - absurd.

"I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. " - Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988), from the introductory lecture on quantum mechanics reproduced in QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman 1985).

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Post 29

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:05amSanction this postReply
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Calopteryx Splendens:

Thanks for taking time to turn on some lights in this room.

Superposition of states is a key marvel.

When De Broglie pulled those phase waves for ponderable matter in motion out a couple of relations of special relativity put together, we got going on a thing of beauty.

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Post 30

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Bill has done an exemplary job of addressing Cal’s remarks.  I just want to add the following.  Cal said:

But when we emit a single particle at a time, instead of a steady stream, we will still observe an interference pattern that is consistent with the position of the two slits, if we wait long enough. This is really weird: how can a single electron interfere with itself? That would imply that it would go through both slits at the same time, somehow it must "know" the positions of both slits to produce a pattern consistent with the position of those slits.

Quantum mechanics doesn’t say this.  QM says: take the probability amplitude (wave function in coordinate space) for the single electron to go through slit A and add it to the probability amplitude to go through slit B.  The probability that the electron reaches a certain point on the screen is then the square of the sum.  Because of the ‘cross terms’ in the resulting expression, there is a distribution of places where the electron is likely to hit, which yields an interference pattern.

 

If you say anything else, you are into interpretation of the algorithm which is QM, and you are ignoring Feynman’s advice.  (Like I said, most physicists are instrumentalists.)

 

The deBroglie-Bohm interpretation says: the electron consists of a particle guided by a wave.  The wave passes through both slits, producing a classical interference pattern, and guides the particle to one of the places where there is positive interference.  No big mystery; not weird at all.  Their theory is mathematically equivalent to Schrödinger’s formulation, but it turns the metaphysical uncertainty in the Copenhagen interpretation into an epistemological uncertainty.

 

Jody said:

Wow. I sure as hell haven't seen any mathematics yet from the armchair warriors and objectivists "scientists".

If you can’t explain the physics without mathematics, then you don’t understand the physics.  I think Feynman, said that.  If he didn’t, he should have.

 

Glenn

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 4/13, 6:46am)


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Post 31

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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Hi Glenn,
"If you can’t explain the physics without mathematics, then you don’t understand the physics."

I am afraid that I have to disagree with you here. For certain disciplines, QM certainly is one of them, I can't imagine how anybody can really understand it without the grasp of the mathematical principles involved.

I also felt something broader implicitly expressed in your statement: that one can understand a highly quantitative science without proficiency in math. Coming from a background that strongly emphasizing quantitative skills, I am constantly appalled by many American students' lack of math skills. I've never believed that American kids are born to be deficient in math. I suspect that the prevailing mentality and culture as implied in your statement may have something to do with why many kids shy away from math ever since elementary school - because they think that they can always get by without it.

PS. I realize that what I am arguing above is not exactly what Glenn actually are saying. I guess a bit of real life rant got over me. :-). But, coming back to the real meaning of what Glenn was saying, I still can't agree with it. Sometimes, a thousand words just can't express what a single equation does. And understanding the verbal explanation of a theory is also completely different from understanding all the underlined mathematical relations in the theory.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 4/13, 9:55am)


Post 32

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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Bill:
No one is "blaming" reality for being weird, Cal. Nor is anyone disputing the experimental evidence, or saying that it can't be what it is, because it isn't reasonable or logical. Please don't accuse us of making that kind of straw-man argument!


Let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that a particle can follow a particular path or trajectory and at the same time not follow it?

No, I say that in some circumstances "following a particular path" has no real meaning, so that this is a false dichotomy. This is experimental evidence that you claim not to dispute. This is described in QM as a superposition of states, in which the wave function of the particle is a normalized sum of wave functions for the different paths. Such a superposition state does not mean that the particle exists in both states at the same time, i.e. that it follows both paths. So the Objectivists' claim that QM tells us that particles follow and don't follow at the same time a trajectory, or that a particle can be at two places at the same time, is a false claim.

As I understand a wave and a particle, they are two different entities with mutually incompatible characteristics. If you say that something can be both a wave and a particle, then you'll have to explain how that is possible.

That's just an experimental fact, which you claim not to dispute.

Again, the purpose of a scientific study is not simply to record what happens or to predict what will happen, but to explain it - to make it intelligible.

There is no difference - any "explanation" is nothing else than a model that describes the facts and that can make succesful predictions. Making such models of the world is our way to make it intelligible, by finding some structure in a bewildering amount of data. Of course we can always try to find an explanation behind the current explanation, i.e. a more encompassing model than the current model that explains your data, and so on, until you've arrived at the Final Explanation, the Theory of Everything. We still don't have a TOE, but so far QM is doing an excellent job of explaining the data. An "explanation" is not a theory you feel comfortable with while it while it conforms to common sense. I couldn't say it better than Feynman (thanks to Jenna for the quote):

Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as she is - absurd.


As long as there isn't any way to distinguish experimentally between different interpretations, such interpretations have no real meaning.
That's simply not true, Cal.
At most they can fulfill a psychological need to have some visualization of what is happening, but they shouldn't be confused with reality.
No, they fulfill a rational need to understand what is going on.

For me the only rational course is the check with reality, that gives you the only real understanding. There is nothing rational in attaching meaning to explanations that are in principle unverifiable, these are no better than floating abstractions and flights of fancy.

Weird is one thing; self-contradiction, another.
I'm still waiting for the first self-contradiction in QM.

Post 33

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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Glenn:
Quantum mechanics doesn’t say this. QM says: take the probability amplitude (wave function in coordinate space) for the single electron to go through slit A and add it to the probability amplitude to go through slit B. The probability that the electron reaches a certain point on the screen is then the square of the sum. Because of the ‘cross terms’ in the resulting expression, there is a distribution of places where the electron is likely to hit, which yields an interference pattern.

But that is exactly my point! QM doesn't say that a particle follows two paths at the same time, it gives a mathematical model that can explain the observed data, even if these don't have a common sense explanation. So I don't understand how you can say in a previous post: The fundamental postulate of superposition is incompatible with the law of excluded middle; either the particle followed a particular path, or it didn't. There ain't no other choice.

If you say anything else, you are into interpretation of the algorithm which is QM, and you are ignoring Feynman’s advice. (Like I said, most physicists are instrumentalists.)

Exactly! But it is not me who is ignoring Feynman's advice.

Post 34

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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 And understanding the verbal explanation of a theory is also completely different from understanding all the underlined mathematical relations in the theory.



In other words - leave it to the experts..... Rubbish!!  To demand a knowledgeable layman to know the higher math the 'experts' engage in is tantamount to religious expousing of keeping it to the 'inner circle'...... Glenn [and Feyman ] quite correct - if ye canna explain it in words, eg. without all the math, then ye donna really know it.


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Post 35

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Cal,
In post #21 you said to Bill:
And how does the Copenhagen interpretation of the double-split experiment fail to explain it? Do you really know what the evidence of the double-split experiment is? The main conclusion is not that there is a particle-wave duality, althought that may be also an aspect of that experiment. It is the unequivocal evidence that a superposition of states can exist (even if you may give it a different name).  [Emphasis added.]
The double-slit experiment does not provide evidence that superpositions exist.  The results of the experiment can be predicted by using a superposition of states of the particles.  And that's the mathematical formalism of quantum mechanics.  To say that the particles are actually, in reality, in a superposition of states is an additional assumption of a particular interpretation: the Copenhagen interpretation.  The same experimental result of the double-slit experiment can be predicted by using the method of deBroglie-Bohm, which is mathematically equivalent and can solve all of the same quantum mechanical problems without invoking superposition.  You are going beyond the evidence when you say that superpositions exist.
Glenn


Post 36

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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robert m,

Look, my 9 year old pre-algebraic son has read several books about Quantum Theory, Black Holes, Theory of Relativity, etc., and claims that he understands all those. Sure, at that level, he is probably right.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 4/13, 12:10pm)


Post 37

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Glenn:
The same experimental result of the double-slit experiment can be predicted by using the method of deBroglie-Bohm, which is mathematically equivalent and can solve all of the same quantum mechanical problems without invoking superposition.

If that theory is mathematically equivalent it must invoke superposition, as that is only defined as a mathematical operation and not as some kind of interpretation.

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Post 38

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Hong.  You said:
I am afraid that I have to disagree with you here. For certain disciplines, QM certainly is one of them, I can't imagine how anybody can really understand it without the grasp of the mathematical principles involved.

Alright, maybe I exaggerated a tad.  But, I think what I said is true to a great extent.  Also, neither of us defined what it is to "really understand" something. 

For many years I taught Physics at the university level.  Usually the most challenging courses for me (and most of my colleagues) were the "Physics for Poets" courses.  The reason is that when you're teaching non-science majors, you have to get the concepts across to them without being able to hide behind the math.  It requires a better grasp and explanation of the ideas.  But, it can be done.

At the graduate level, often you can put an equation on the board, point to it and say: "See?"  And they usually do.  But the reason you can do that is also the reason why, as you put it, a " thousand words just can't express what a single equation does".  It's because of the many words and concepts that lie behind the equation.  To really understand the equation, you have to know both the mathematical concepts and the physical concepts that lie behind the form and the content of the equation.

I think that an interested, intelligent, mathematically unsophisticated adult can understand quantum mechanics without being able to calculate, for example, the expectation value of the position of the electron in a Hydrogen atom.
Thanks,
Glenn
[The sentence in bold was added in editing, so that it didn't seem that I was undercutting my own argument!]

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 4/13, 12:24pm)


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Post 39

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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Cal said:
If that theory is mathematically equivalent it must invoke superposition, as that is only defined as a mathematical operation and not as some kind of interpretation.
That's not true.  The Schrodinger equation is a linear equation, so a superposition of solutions is also a solution.  But the principle that the probability amplitude for a process containing more than one 'path' is a linear combination of the individual probability amplitudes is an additional assumption in conventional quantum mechanics.

Bohm derives his formalism from the Schrodinger equation.  He ends up, in the double-slit example, with a particle whose trajectory (which exists at all times) is influenced by a 'quantum potential'.  There's no superposition, just a particle guided along an appropriate trajectory to the right place, after going through one of the holes.
Glenn

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 4/13, 12:16pm)


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