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Post 40

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Glenn,
"Usually the most challenging courses for me (and most of my colleagues) were the "Physics for Poets" courses. "

Hahahaha. OK, I agree with you. Apparently we were talking about different levels of understanding of things.


Post 41

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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"The reason is that when you're teaching non-science majors, you have to get the concepts across to them without being able to hide behind the math.  It requires a better grasp and explanation of the ideas."

Yes, for the person who does the explanation, it is a lot harder to explain things in a non-mathematical, or shall I say, more "philosophical" fashion. But for a person who wants to understand a very quantitative scientific theory such as QM at a "philosophical" level,  without a understanding of Schrodinger Equation and the wavefunction? I don't think so.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 4/13, 1:04pm)


Post 42

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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The reason is that when you're teaching non-science majors, you have to get the concepts across to them without being able to hide behind the math.  It requires a better grasp and explanation of the ideas.  But, it can be done.


YES!!!


Post 43

Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Has anyone looked at Feynman's "Path integral formulation"?

From Wicki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation)

The path integral formulation of quantum mechanics was developed in 1948 by Richard Feynman. Some preliminaries were worked out earlier, in the course of his doctoral thesis work with John Archibald Wheeler. It is a description of quantum theory which generalizes the action principle of classical mechanics. It replaces the classical notion of a single, unique history for a system with a sum, or functional integral, over an infinity of possible histories to compute a quantum amplitude.
This formulation has proved crucial to the subsequent development of theoretical physics, since it provided the basis for the grand synthesis of the 1970's called the renormalization group which unified quantum field theory with statistical mechanics. It is no surprise, therefore, that path integrals have also been used in the study of Brownian motion and diffusion.

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 4/14, 6:22am)


Post 44

Friday, April 14, 2006 - 6:07amSanction this postReply
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In post #39 I said something that may be misleading.  I said:
Bohm derives his formalism from the Schrodinger equation.  He ends up, in the double-slit example, with a particle whose trajectory (which exists at all times) is influenced by a 'quantum potential'.  There's no superposition, just a particle guided along an appropriate trajectory to the right place, after going through one of the holes.

The wave properties are obtained from the wave function that is a solution of the Schrodinger equation.  So, there is superposition of the waves here; that's how you get the classical interference pattern.  The trajectory of the particle is determined by the quantum potential, which is derived from the wave function.  However, the particle itself follows a well-defined trajectory which takes it through one of the holes. 

What I intended to say is that there is no superposition of states for the particle itself going through both holes.  It has a unique trajectory that is determined by the quantum potential and the initial conditions of the particle.
Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 45

Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Glenn, for your careful and informed contributions here.

I second the remark of Hong Zhang in post #31, which Glenn joined in #38:
I am afraid that I have to disagree with you here. For certain disciplines, QM certainly is one of them, I can't imagine how anybody can really understand it without the grasp of the mathematical principles involved.
My Quantum Mechanics professor was Robert Sachs, years ago when I was in physics grad school at U of C. He agreed with Hong, and believe you me, he knew what he was talking about.

One wonderful thing about the leading philosophers of physics today is that they are not only sophisticated in philosophy, but they have the necessary competency in the mathematics and in the physics. Here are some of these philosophers whose works are worth their salt: Henry Krips, Michael Redhead, Larry Sklar, Bas Van Fraassen, R.I.G. Hughes, John Earman, Paul Teller, Micheal Dickson.

Post 46

Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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 Here is just for fun:

James Schombert's "Photon self-identity problems"
 

 Sorry, don't know how to get it smaller.


Post 47

Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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"Okay, but just remember that probability is an epistemological concept; causality, a metaphysical one."

That distinction has a definite appeal to it. I like to view uncertainty principle and anything suggesting backwards causality not as a random reality, but just that we cannot detect everything. Likewise, we want there to be an underlying cause (again one which we cannot detect) which determines whether a particle will do x or y, rather than probabilities truly meaning randomness at a fundamental level. It seems risky to hold unwaveringly to that idea though - what do you do when the desire for philosophical elegance is at odds with evidence and Occam's razor?

As for contradictions and math - I agree with your final point about noncontradiction in reality itself. My comments were defending Heisenberg because his quote lacked context, and his comments on math were true for any he'd likely encountered. Your response was happily in depth and fun.

"We have to make a distinction between potential infinity, which is a legitimate mathematical concept, and actual infinity"

Truly an Aristotlean! :) Zeno can be brushed aside in many ways, but it can be difficult to avoid begging the question when doing so (just ask a freshman grappling with using an infinite series to show his work :) ). I actually like your simple philosophical retort to turn the whole thing on its head - ie. the whole is primary and the steps are in dividing it at all, rather than adding fractions to the whole. I think that could be worked around in the formulation of the paradox (a half presupposes a whole exists, true - but in a motion paradox it does not presuppose travel over the whole to traverse or measure out the half) - but I like the different approach. It makes me curious to hear your view on other pre-Cantor infinity puzzles - say Galileo's paradox, or that on a line numbered from 0 to 1 there are infinitely many rational numbers - yet if you randomly choose a point on that line the chances of it being at a rational number is 0%.

[Russell's antinomy]

"As Binswanger notes, Russell purports to solve this paradox by classifying statements according to different types."

I didn't know Binswanger talked about it. Good explanation of the type system and its significant weakness, BTW.

Binswanger is wrong though on Russell (and Whitehead's) type system itself causing a contradiction (it doesn't refer to all statements including a statement of its own truth). The problem isn't in actually causing a contradiction, just that the restriction makes it limiting and cumbersome. R+W's Principia Mathematica ($700 at Amazon?!) is a good read concerning self-referential paradoxes and the type system R+W created to try to avoid them. Well, the English introduction anyway, thanks to Russell's gifted writing - the actual reformulation of mathematics is incredibly arcane and now largely of historical interest.

Other set theory formulations such as ZF have alternate, less crippling, means around Russell's and other paradoxes. (IIRC there aren't any known inconsistencies in ZF, so I suppose we could criticize Heisenberg's comments on math if he'd encountered it.) Your comments are interesting, thanks. They also made me remember some musings and questions concerning reality, QM and math that I'll take to another post or thread.


Post 48

Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Metaphysical musings... Pioneers in QM found that some things previously believed to be continuous were in fact discrete - eg. light waves consisted of discrete photons, electrons can only occupy discrete energy levels. What are your thoughts on the concept of space and time themselves being quantized?

That is, quantized space would mean within a given bounds, only a finite (though certainly astoundingly large) number of locations would exist at which particles could occupy, and movement would mean between discrete locations. Quantized time would be the ultimate 'tick' (which likewise would be extremely brief) at which movements and interactions occur. (It seems easy to relate that either both are discrete or both are continuous - but if anyone has ideas for there being a mix, that would be interesting to hear)

Do you think space/time must be necessarily continuous? Necessarily quantized? Something in between/meaningless/not enough info? I don't hold a staunch bias either way, but it's always seemed a very intriguing question and I'd enjoy hearing science-minded Oists' thoughts on it.


Post 49

Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
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R+W's Principia Mathematica ($700 at Amazon?!) is a good read concerning self-referential paradoxes and the type system R+W created to try to avoid them

I'm reading Godel, Escher, and Bach; and highly enjoyed the way Hofstadter elucidated how Godel treated Principia.

Post 50

Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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For $700, be far cheaper to get library copy and xerox it.......

And yes, Jenna, that is a fun book to read, as are others by him...

(Edited by robert malcom on 4/15, 6:20pm)

(Edited by robert malcom on 4/15, 6:21pm)


Post 51

Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt Godel, that evil nihilist! ...or at least so it felt like when I first encountered his incompleteness arguments. He can definitely serve as a reality check on the view of mathematics as some pristine, universal system with no contradictions and all the answers. Like Heisenberg, he's someone it can be hard to thank for telling us there's no Santa Claus.

I was surprised PM wasn't past copyright and available online yet; 4 more years apparently. I loved Hofstadter (+Dennett) in Mind's I, but never read his GEB after leafing through it once since I didn't discern the theme (just that it wasn't really biographical or about math/music/art); I'll have to give that another shot next library or B&N run.


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Post 52

Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Two facts about that I think need to be pointed out.

1) It's an incomplete theory. Why? Because the problem of measurement is still the burning issue for most physicists trying to resolve the issue. What is the problem of measurement? Simply put, it's an issue with how the current equations explain the behavior of particles when they interact with detectors, namely through EM force. Since, every detection is a measurement, and every measurement alters the state of a given particle being measured. So, what follows afterward is a chain of events that may not be readily assumed to be knowable in the strictest sense of the word. Essentially, when you measure, you lose datum of future trajectory and must start again.

There have been several proposed solutions to this problem such as Transactional Method, which makes EM force time-independent, meaning each EM force based particle able to influence its past self to alter its path. Evidence for this is apparent in what is known as the natural perturbation of electrons. Although, this assumption about the perturbation can be argued against simply because we can't travel back in time like Doctor Who to see if the electron in the past was indeed perturbed by its future self.

Another method is Coherence, which assumes all quantum systems eventually fall into synch naturally, forming 'harmonies.' A problem with this method is its inability to be translated to the macroscape where it would help explain why the Law Identity follows here but not in the QM world.

The remaining methods to 'normalize' the current QM phenomena are still left wanting as are the two methods I've explained.

2) Another problem with QM that most folks really don't readibly grasp is that it has nothing to say about the macroscape save for a few phenomena.

QM can explain a certain kind of superconductivity which is rather interesting to say the least, but sadly it can't explain the rest of the different kinds of superconductivity known.

QM also explains why spacetime has energy flucuations and a strange repulsive force known as 'negative energy' which is very important since all sorts of experiments have now detected both of these oddities. But, again, QM only explains them within a certain degree of measure. Beyond it, QM is at a loss.

With these two points about QM, it's pretty clear, as Galileo Galilei once said, "It's the beginning of a great and excellent science...", but as I will add, it is not the end either, "minds more piercing than mine shall pierce the recesses still further..." So, with that, I hope you all consider very critically, but not negatively, the nature of QM and what it can lead to within science.

-- Bridget

Post 53

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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Bridget Armozel mentioned the transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics. In this note, I want to partially assess the consistency of the transactional interpretation with Rand’s metaphysics. I rely here on John G. Cramer’s presentation (1986) of the transactional interpretation in Reviews of Modern Physics 58(3):647–87.

 

The basic element of this interpretation is the transaction describing a quantum event as an exchange of advanced and retarded waves, as implied by the work of Wheeler and Feynman, Dirac, and others. The transactional interpretation is explicitly nonlocal and thereby consistent with recent tests of the Bell inequality, yet it is relativistically invariant and fully causal. . . . The transactional interpretation permits quantum mechanical wave functions to be interpreted as real waves physically present in space rather than as “mathematical representations of knowledge” as in the Copenhagen interpretation. (647, emphasis added)

 

The transactional interpretation accepts a principle of contrafactual definiteness (CFD): “For the various possible measurements (perhaps of noncommuting variables) which might have been performed on a quantum system, each would have produced a definite (but unknown and possibly random) observational result. . . . [CFD] is completely compatible with the mathematics of quantum mechanics, but it is in some conflict with the positivistic element of the Copenhagen interpretation” (648). It is also in conflict with the following interpretations: Hidden Variables; Guide-Wave (de Broglie); Collapse of State Vector (von Neumann); Many-Worlds; and Advanced-Wave (de Beauregard or Davidon).

 

An interpretation of quantum mechanics must provide a physical interpretation of the mathematical formalism. This enables experimental tests. A second function of an interpretation is to “define the domain of applicability of the formalism” and to “interpret the unobservables in such a way as to avoid paradoxes and contradictions” (650).

 

Is the CFD principle, which is a central component of the transactional interpretation, consistent with Rand’s metaphysics as stated in her published works? CFD is certainly consistent with Rand’s view that external reality exists and has definite objective characteristics whether we measure them or not. The possible conflict between Rand’s metaphysics and CFD would be in the latter’s factor of definite but possibly random observational results. The transactional interpretation takes the mathematical state vector, which carries canonically conjugate quantities, to be a real wave. That means that the Heisenberg uncertainty relations (dispersion relations) implied in Schrödinger’s equation (see Jody Gomez’s post #0) are indeterminacy relations in external objective reality.

 

Rand takes the law of causality to be her rich law of identity applied to action. She states the law of causality this way: “All the countless forms, motions, combinations and dissolutions of elements within the universe—from a floating speck of dust to the formation of a galaxy to the emergence of life—are caused and determined by the identities of the elements involved” (1973). If by determined Rand means to say that every particular result of an experiment, even the particular values of canonically conjugate quantities, is uniquely determined prior to the instant of the experimental test, then her version of the principle of causality (and her version of identity) would need a modest adjustment to accommodate the CFD principle in the transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics.

 

A second central component of the transactional interpretation is its abandonment, in the quantum regime, of the principle of locality, which has borne much good fruit in classical physics. The transactional interpretation embraces correlations established faster-than-light between parts of a physical state vector separated by spacelike or negative timelike intervals. Rand’s metaphysics is not in conflict with this sort of physical nonlocality.


Post 54

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt Godel, that evil nihilist! ...or at least so it felt like when I first encountered his incompleteness arguments. He can definitely serve as a reality check on the view of mathematics as some pristine, universal system with no contradictions and all the answers. Like Heisenberg, he's someone it can be hard to thank for telling us there's no Santa Claus.

Sometimes seeing someone as something in the beginning might cause me to miss something really valuable! So therefore I'm learning fast and hard not to do that... otherwise I'd bypass Neitzsche completely and never take away any of the positive things he wrote (amidst the seeming hysterics of Zarathustra). Godel? He was so cool; so clever for his treatment of PM. I've never read PM; I need to ramp up to it. Russell did write about math and logic; perhaps I would benefit from his more "basic" readings first.

I was surprised PM wasn't past copyright and available online yet; 4 more years apparently. I loved Hofstadter (+Dennett) in Mind's I, but never read his GEB after leafing through it once since I didn't discern the theme (just that it wasn't really biographical or about math/music/art); I'll have to give that another shot next library or B&N run.

I have Mind's I; actually I've had it since 1998. It's very playful, kind of an innocent exploration into the depths of mind. I enjoy it because I have a playful side; I get that feeling from Dennett and Hofstadter-- they exhibit in their books so far a wonder for the world and for what the mind can do. Since they bypass me by many years, it's all I can do to keep the wonder that they have alive in my own heart and mind, over the course of my life. I'd like to be 80 and still looking out with joy, excitement, and wonder for what I can still learn!

GEB definitely has a theme. It builds up from the beginning and because Hofstadter thinks in a similar way that I do, I found it easy to follow. It only sounds like it's all over the place, but there is a theme tying everything together. It is not directly graspable upon a few pages, I've gotten 80 pages in, it's been awesome, and it's only just begun! :)

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Post 55

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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In looking back over some of the posts on this thread, I see that I let a couple of points pass that I shouldn't have.

In Post 21, Dragonfly (aka Calopterix Splendens) quoted my reply to Joel Catala as follows:
Little wonder that you, who believe in this fairy-tale hash of contradictions, should now weigh in on the side of physical mysticism, just as you have on the side of spiritual mysticism. Why wouldn't you believe in a radioactive sample that is simultaneously decayed and not decayed, a glass vessel of poison that is neither broken nor unbroken, and a cat that is both dead and alive, while being neither alive nor dead? Given all of that, it is actually a step up for you to believe that an electron can be both a particle and a wave at the same time.
and responded:
You're merely displaying your ignorance of physics with such nonsense. Today no physicist believes that the cat would be dead or alive at the same time.
And you're merely displaying your ignorance of what I said. I was replying to Joel Catala, who wrote:
In the Schroedinger's cat experiment, if the disintegrating bit of radioactive substance is of the size of the buckminsterfullerene molecule (or smaller), the laws and axioms of quantum mechanics indeed apply with full validity, and Schroedinger's description is deemed as fundamentally correct.
So, where did you get the idea that I was attributing that view to contemporary physicists?

I asked, "Are you saying that a particle can follow a particular path or trajectory and at the same time not follow it?" In Post 32, you replied,
No, I say that in some circumstances "following a particular path" has no real meaning, so that this is a false dichotomy. This is experimental evidence that you claim not to dispute. This is described in QM as a superposition of states, in which the wave function of the particle is a normalized sum of wave functions for the different paths. Such a superposition state does not mean that the particle exists in both states at the same time, i.e. that it follows both paths. So the Objectivists' claim that QM tells us that particles follow and don't follow at the same time a trajectory, or that a particle can be at two places at the same time, is a false claim.
First of all, there is no official "Objectivist claim" that QM tells us that particles follow and don't follow at the same time a trajectory, or that a particle can be at two places at the same time. Secondly, I myself did not make that claim; I simply asked you a question, because I wasn't clear on what you were claiming. Please don't read more into what I say than is actually there.

In Post 25, Jody Gomez wrote,
Wow. I sure as hell haven't seen any mathematics yet from the armchair warriors and objectivists "scientists". If you wish do disprove a field of science that has given you the very computer you type your objections out on, then you best put aside philosophy for the moment. Derive from reality what you will, but as Fenman said, "reality is what she is." Reality proves you wrong, but please, at your will, jump in here with some actual physics whenever you feel like it. Oh, I see, your knowledge of physics is limited to what you read in a John Gribbin book. So far, I must say it looks that way. Of course, I could be wrong...anyone feel up to refuting Schroedinger or Heisenberg?
There might have been some excuse for this sarcastic rant, if the posts that preceded it had yet to appear. Hong asked what Heisenberg and Schroedinger said about science that I considered crazy. I gave her a legitimate answer consisting of clear statements by these gentlemen in which they interpreted their scientific observations as implying metaphysical subjectivism (the primacy of consciousness), non-identity and non-causality. And for that, I get the kind of condescending and irrelevant reply that indicates that you could care less. Pardon me for responding in good faith to an honest question. Oh, and by the way, the fact that I don't know all the higher mathematics of quantum mechanics does not prevent me from recognizing nonsense when I see it.

- Bill

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Post 56

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill I was just going to say it appears the others on this thread have strawmanned your arguments. (not that you need me to defend you, you've done an eloquent job of that yourself) The original claim was that you've heard some crazy things come out of the mouths of scientists, and the point being those scientists are not disqualified thus to speak on the subject of science. Considering some of the recent nonsense Richard Dawkins has said:

Retribution as a moral principle is incompatible with a scientific view of human behaviour. As scientists, we believe that human brains, though they may not work in the same way as man-made computers, are as surely governed by the laws of physics. When a computer malfunctions, we do not punish it. We track down the problem and fix it, usually by replacing a damaged component, either in hardware or software.....Isn't the murderer or the rapist just a machine with a defective component? Or a defective upbringing? Defective education? Defective genes?
 
http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html

He then compares a human being to a car, and says that we both operate under the same laws of physics, which is true in a mechanical sense, but he's completely missed the concept of free will. A car has none, no other thing on this planet other than a human being has free will. A car is not self-aware, it cannot make decisions on its own concerning its welfare or its happiness.

But Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist, in this sense is a genius to his field. He's made excellent strides in this field of science. But this does not allow him to be the sole judge on issues of morality. Nor does it excuse his poor understanding of metaphysics.

I think the whole issue is that unfortunately many scientists have separated themselves from any kind of metaphysical knowledge. One does not have to have the extent of knowledge Richard Dawkins has about evolutionary biology to know that Dawkins has gone off his rocker.

It's the classic appeal from authority argument. Bill is not disputing the empirical data of QM, nor is he even disputing many of the interpretations made by modern theoretical physicists. But Bill does not need to be a QM physicist to know when a few of them have said things that are paradoxical to an objective reality. And I don't need to be an evolutionary biologist to know Dawkins has made an erroneous analogy.


Post 57

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Good rebuttal, Bill -- and good confirmation of that, John A.

Ed


Post 58

Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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"Godel? He was so cool; so clever for his treatment of PM. I've never read PM; I need to ramp up to it. Russell did write about math and logic; perhaps I would benefit from his more "basic" readings first."

Conveniently enough, he has a book called Basic Writings of Bertrand Russell. Not sure how good it is, outside PM I've only read his more pop-philosophy material (Conquest of Happiness, Why I am not a Christian, etc.)

"I have Mind's I; actually I've had it since 1998. It's very playful, kind of an innocent exploration into the depths of mind... I'd like to be 80 and still looking out with joy, excitement, and wonder for what I can still learn!

Absolutely! Let me know if you know of any other thought-provoking but playful books in the way that Mind's I is. Closest other book that comes to mind that same kind of feel is Labyrinths of Reason, but they are quite unique.

"GEB definitely has a theme... It is not directly graspable upon a few pages, I've gotten 80 pages in, it's been awesome, and it's only just begun! :)"

Thanks, sounds worth checking out.


Post 59

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Conveniently enough, he has a book called "Basic Writings of Bertrand Russell". Not sure how good it is, outside PM I've only read his more pop-philosophy material (Conquest of Happiness, Why I am not a Christian, etc.)

Actually, I own that "Basics Writings" book. A bunch of his stuff is on my Amazon booklist, but that list is 18 pages long and I got lost in it. However, he's got Principles of Mathematics which sounds interesting.

The Basic Writings book covers short writings on symbolic logic, induction, summaries of Principia Mathematica, Dewey's logic, and validity of inference. The rest is a few writings on philosophy of language, history, psychology, education, politics, economics, history, culture, religion, science, and international affairs.

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