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Post 100

Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

I very much doubt that I like NoodleFood in its present incarnation any better than you do, but isn't shunning Chris C on account of a single item on his website a little hasty?

Robert C


Post 101

Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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Chris C,

Mr. Valliant sagely asked

See what I mean?
See what I mean?

Whatever that means...

Robert C


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Post 102

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:13amSanction this postReply
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Robert asked me:

I very much doubt that I like NoodleFood in its present incarnation any better than you do, but isn't shunning Chris C on account of a single item on his website a little hasty? 

Robert,

Perhaps, but that single item was informative.  He doesn’t consider TOC to be “representative of open inquiry and intellectual tolerance” and he was persuaded of this by Diana Hsieh.  Couple that with his gratuitous remarks in post #93 and that was enough to make me realize that I have no respect for his opinion in these matters and have nothing to gain by interacting with him.

 

I guess I could have just not interacted with him without saying anything, but I was really annoyed so I gave him some feedback.  I also wanted to point this out to others who are less hasty and continue to interact with him.

 

Thanks,

Glenn


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Post 103

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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--The Fallacy of "Collective Judgment"--

Glenn and others,

I think Chris Cathcart has many thoughtful things to say. I don't agree with every post, but one can learn from reading him and I will continue to do so and interact with him and sanction him.

With regard to the issue of choosing to not want to hear anything else someone might have to say once he has been identified as making a choice on the ARI-TOC or NoodleFood-other websites spectrums, I think that's the mistake of *collective judgment*, rather than *individual judgment*: Judging the group (TOC, etc.) and then by virtue of one's admiration or contempt for the group, judging the individuals who subscribe to the group, regardless of degree or context or any detailed perusal or examination of the individual. It's a short-circuiting of the process of moral (or practical or intellectual) judgment. Some people read that Chris Sciabarra is opposed to ARI and they don't feel a need to read Diana's essay any further to know all they need to know about his intelligence, scholarship, -and- character. Some people learn about someone's position on whether Ayn Rand had personal flaws or moral errors and they don't examine how much that person knows or what their reasoning is and they lump together people simplistically based on what position they take on the totality of statements in a single biography or a counter-biography about her (anti-Rand, pro-Rand...).

I don't want to particularly focus on whether one person (Glenn) is doing this or whether he takes into account other aspects in the issue of Chris C, but I want to consider the issue more widely, only using this as a springboard. Why? Because I see this mistake *everywhere* among people educated enough to know better.

*Collectivism* is the doctrine that the group is the unit of reality (sometimes metaphysically as in the case of Plato, Marx, etc.) and/or the standard of value.

*Collective judgment* is the doctrine that membership in a particular group is the unit of judgment and the standard of worth (moral, practical, intellectual, associational...) of the individual members.

Collective judgment can be used by the members of the group in assessing outsiders & by the outsiders in regarding the group. It has been done -both- ways by Objectivsts, members of ARI and TOC and websites, and outsiders lumping together all members within those groups.

It's ironic when advocates of a philosophy of individualism -- of the uniqueness and worth and metaphysical independence and wide variation of the individual -- discard individual judgment in favor of collective judgment, violating their own fundamental premises, lumping everything of value and concern together -indiscriminately- based on which of the two "sides" (and as if there were only two sides and total agreement on every aspect of human nature and reality within them in this case) of a broadly truthful, rational, real-world grasping philosophy a person belongs to.

This is no small issue. If we do not apply our philosophy correctly in everyday life in important real world issues such as the all important and inter-linked issues of how to assess, how to judge, rules of evidence, on what basis to act, there is extremely little chance we will succeed (personally or culturally).

(Now of course there are exceptions and context. One can't say -never- make a collective judgment or that one can gain -no information- or likelihoods or hypotheses about a person from membership in a group - especially if the group is of certain clear-cut types: If the group one were joining were the skinheads whose clear, explicit and only purpose were to hunt down and beat up immigrants...but those are not the cases or the kind of judgments inside the Objectivist movement we are talking about here.)


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/24, 10:59am)


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Post 104

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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I don't get "the vibe" that TOC is a sinking ship-- so I think this interpretation depends on the person. This year, it was the TOC conference that I wanted to attend for its neuroscience talks; perhaps next year I will be interested in what ARI offers (I've looked at both). I see it as "shopping" for quality ideas in a marketplace, letting my own mind make the decisions. Nuttin' wrong with that! :D

My preference towards an education is: "Everyone else leave me alone, allow me to read the raw data, and I'll decide for myself." In essence, I like to point myself in a general direction and go for it without anyone micromanaging. When I take a class, the last thing I want to do it swallow it up; my preferred method of learning is discussion and using different perspectives to test-- to the utmost-- what I'm being taught. Which is why 4-5 months of forum discussions has given me more education than if I had not done so.

I also have nothing against the Brandens personally (or even professionally/publicly), especially since I have never met them in person, nor TOC, nor ARI. I've read a number of articles at both (more ARI than TOC, I'll be giving TOC articles my attention now), I've borrowed some JARS journals & read a couple. Do I agree with everything? No. Do I disagree with everything? No. How about agreeing/disagreeing with different things, given my active mind, context, and reality? Cool!

Also, in terms of people & their works, I take it individual by individual, in the context of my life experience. It is definitely not that Objectivism as a whole is invalidated by the behaviors of a few individuals, but that I'm not going to-- in addition to school, graduation, application to grad school, scholarly work, writing, etc.-- put on my plate lengthy and, at times, vitriolic debates over "who is an Objectivist" by calling myself one, especially in the foresight that my own education and style of thinking might fuel more debate in general. The same goes for calling myself "libertarian" or "connectivist" or whatever.

I just don't have that kind of patience. Maybe I need to learn more patience... but not right now. :)

I pick and choose unashamedly, and I revel in the free will to do so.

Post 105

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Fallacy of Collective Judgment, continued

Just to make it clear that the error of improper collective judgment is much broader than Oism, and that all kinds of people make it every day, I'd like to note that MSK's point about racial (or national or ethnic or sexual) prejudice is a far cruder form of collective judgment from group membership.

On a subtler level, suppose someone wants to fix a woman up on a blind date and she learns the man's profession, "Oh, Christ, he's a goddamn ENGINEER. Forget it. My ex-husband would only talk about..." Or a man in a similar situation, "Oh, she's a freaking artist. Artists are flaky..and she's a woman artist. Even worse. At least with a man...."

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Post 106

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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Phil,

I think David Kelley got it right when he talked about a tribal mentality in Objectivism. That is the form of collectivism I most often observe when denunciations, acrimonious foul language and insults fly about.

Michael


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Post 107

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
I don't think you understood my reasons, so let me restate them.  Mine was not a "collective judgment" as you defined it.  It was a judgment of the individual based on his statements.  I think he is so fundamentally wrong on this issue that I see no reason to think his judgment in other issues concerning Objectivism will be any better.

Let me give you an analogy.  I'm a Cardinals fan.  Suppose someone came up to me and said: "The Cardinals are a terrible team and Pujols is a rotten hitter.  I was convinced of this by my friend."  Two things will happen.  First, I'll be annoyed.  He's talking about the Cardinals!  This emotional reaction is no different in kind from the reaction one would have if someone insulted his/her spouse, or family member, or friend.  It would just be a matter of degree.

The second thing to happen would be a judgment of the person's ability to judge baseball teams or players.  In this case, obviously, the guy doesn't know what he is talking about, and neither does his friend.  So, why would I want to interact with him any further about baseball?  What do I have to gain by doing that?

The fact that Chris Cathcart made what I consider to be a fundamentally flawed judgment and then considered it to be important enough to make a strong statement about it on his blog is enough for me to judge that he is not worth interacting with on the subject of Objectivism.  This was not because he dissed TOC.  It was not a "be true to your school" reaction.  The annoyance was, but the judgment wasn't.

Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 108

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn, I think the error (I agree with Phil and Robert C. that there is an error) in your method of coming to a conclusion about Chris Cathcart is that of "snap judgment" based on an inappropriately narrow range of considerations. You're concluding that CC is "not worth interacting with on the subject of Objectivism" on the basis of his views on one particular issue. But there's much more covered by the scope of "Objectivism" than that one particular. E.g., although I probably disagree with CC about numerous issues, I have found his reflections on rights theory informed and interesting. Also, I think he often gives interesting reasons for his views even when I don't agree. In general, he isn't a regimented thinker. I suggest that you're losing out if you just eliminate the possibility of interacting with him. (There are people whom I consider not worth interacting with; I'm not saying that dismissing someone as a waste of one's time is never a sound judgment. I'm suggesting that you've jumped to too wide a conclusion on the basis of too little in this specific case.)

Ellen


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Post 109

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 3:52pmSanction this postReply
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Ellen,
Thanks for the input.  You and Robert C may be right (Phil's criticism was quite different and, I think, off the mark).  But, it's a judgment call, and as Chris said in post #95, it's my problem.  And as you said, I'm the one who will be 'losing out'.
Thanks,
Glenn


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Post 110

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 6:35pmSanction this postReply
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I think my mind works in a similar way as Glenn. It's just a general observation that if somebody is capable of illogical thinking/bad premises in one thing, they are likely to do the same in other things as well.

It's somewhat like entrance exams/interviews or qualifying exams in graduate school. You ask the candidates a few questions to assess their general knowledge base and more importantly the analytical thinking ability. You can then pretty much tell whether they'll be able to conduct the research project without having them actually do it and thus wasting the grant money.


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Post 111

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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There are a number of posts here that I intend to get to commenting on.  For now, a couple things.  Thanks for lighting a fire under my ass with that last one, Hong.  If we want to speak about analytical thinking ability, I'd urge people to carefully read what I say in my caption to the NoodleFood link.  I already brought up the question how TOC is particularly deserving of mention as a beacon of open inquiry and tolerance.

Maybe I need to back up a bit.  For years my links section there was un-updated, as I was on something of a haitus from strong interest in Objectivism and philosophy (during which time I boned up on movies).  Compared to what it is now, it was a weak links section, and pointed only to TOC-friendly sites.  I think things have evolved in more recent years.  It was occasional posts by Diana to HPO that eventually led me, about a year or so ago, to read up more on why she considered it necessary to depart from TOC.  In the meanwhile, I also ended up finding her blog to be one of the most interesting places to visit on a regular basis.  I have come to find "what Diana says" to be some pretty high-impact stuff on the direction that Objectivism and Objectivist studies is heading in.  I think that the people at TOC ignore her at their peril -- and I say, once again, that TOC looks to be headed in the direction of less and less relevance, as if reinforcing a prophecy that Diana keeps hitting us with over and over.  I remember some 10 years ago, TOC (then IOS) was much more on the forefront and cutting edge, and was attracting some big names to speak there -- e.g., Eric Mack (probably the most important scholar influenced by Rand along with Tara Smith and/or the Dougs) and John Hospers.  I'm not big on spending big dough to go to conferences, but that was one year ('97, maybe?) that I had more interest in going than any.  Now, the biggest names to appear on their list of speakers are the Brandens, and this accompanied by the news that the Brandens as well as TOC prefer to remain silent about PARC.  I don't consider it good news for TOC that a big-impact book is now more or less off-limits.  Couple that with what I simply take to be an overall air of ineffectuality about the way that Kelley and those around him decide that they want to promote the Objectivist message -- one of watered-down, feel-good language and "outreach," like some attempt at bridge-building between Objectivism and the culture, as opposed to an all-out assault on the irrational premises of the culture.  I remember getting the Navigator magazine and being all-too-often uninterested and unimpressed with the empty-sounding feel-good rhetoric.  It seems now that this has become the dominant theme at TOC.  I'm just not impressed with what I've been seeing coming out of there nowadays.  In the meantime, it's an ARI-supported scholar who's been the first in the race to the moon, figuratively, putting out a work by the Cambridge Press.  I think it shows that it's about time to reconsider strategies, priorities, and most importantly, ideas.  I don't see much evidence in recent years of the TOC approach working -- and meanwhile, it's devoting its remaining resources in seemingly amazingly disproportionate fashion, to funding appearances by the Brandens.  This just doesn't look right at all.

Now, as to Diana's website replacing the TOC one on my links list.  I'm actually not friends with her as someone suggested.  I actually have major misgivings with her denunciation of Chris Sciabarra.  There's probably plenty on her website that I have problems with.  I'll name one: I'm not impressed by the, ahem, claquish supporters that her blog comments sections have attracted.  I won't lay that at Diana's feet; that's really the doing of the claquers.  The claquers there are less interested, I think, than Diana herself is and has shown herself to be, to address issues on the strength of the substance of the arguments.  I'm not even saying that I approve in full of the way that she addresses them, but she'll address them -- and she'll address them in a way that gives lie to the dichotomy that you can't be firm and resolute in your judgment and be open and tolerant at the same time -- when you have the full context behind your judgments as applies in each case.  She is one of those, as an aspiring academic, who doesn't consider it appropriate or necessary to interact with academia while accepting the bad premises of discussions that go on there -- but does understand the importance of advocating and defending Objectivism in such strong terms that the academy can't rule out as unacceptable.  To do that, of course, you need to be well familiar with the way academics do things -- you know, knowing thine enemy so as to better subvert it.  With Tara Smith is a leading example so far, I see the ARI folks as finally getting around to doing an effective job at this.  So I'm seeing a large shift in recent years in strength, effectiveness, etc., away from TOC and towards ARI.  The top-notch works of non-ARI'ers like Mack and the Dougs has been, if you haven't noticed, quite independent of any of the efforts or help of TOC.  Has TOC been doing something comparable to what ARI has been doing in grooming a new generation of professionals that can effectively KASS in academia while not selling out on or watering down Objectivism?

Maybe what I'm asking in the end is, just what exactly has TOC been accomplishing towards the end of advancing the best case for Objectivism and changing the culture?  What exactly does it have to show for the past 15 years?  I've been seeing more substantive results towards this end in non-TOC venues (whether ARI-affiliated or not).  And why does TOC deserve any special marks for being about open inquiry and tolerance?  I'm not saying that the ARI has had the best track record on this, either (in fact, I regard it as pretty bad, when someone like Peter Schwartz was all but the name and face of the ARI for years), but I'm definitely seeing better in recent years -- and we are now seeing some major substantive products of a much better approach, as evidenced by the example of Prof. Smith.  I think that if you give other up-and-coming people like Diana some time, you may well see more of the same.

If you haven't noticed, I can sometimes be long-winded. :-)


Post 112

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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Laure wrote: "... although there are a few people online that I wouldn't want to meet!"

Such as?

M


Post 113

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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MSK wrote: "...(Some people forgot that disclaimer was there - or..."

...or maybe they didn't.

M


Post 114

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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Regarding post 11: [oops. I meant 111...]

Oh really?


(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 5/24, 8:00pm)

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 5/25, 8:56am)


Post 115

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, what's wrong with addressing a poster by name, rather than by post # (which technically you got wrong anyway)?


Post 116

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
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I'll note that post 11 is by Bob himself. ;-)

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Post 117

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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To some mentioning people's names grants them a certain level of respect. For instance I don't mind mentioning Kant or Duchamp, I may disagree with them at their roots but they are extremely intelligent and almost worthy advisories. On the other hand, there are other people, bless their hearts, that just don’t rise up to name calling.

M

P.S. ..and, of course, I don’t mind mentioning Robert Bidinotto, a person as sharp and as astute as they come-- if one comes up on the opposite side of the his argument it would be wise to humbly crawl away, quickly lick their wounds, spend a few years getting a life, and then bring some well-meaning reasoned thoughts to the table.

(Edited by Newberry on 5/24, 8:42pm)


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Post 118

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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On to the substance: Bob, how exactly am I supposed to integrate the link to a graduate seminar as a response to my post?  I understand that graduate seminars may be necessary for results, but sufficient?

And anyway, not that I feel particularly slighted or even give a shit by not being mentioned by name, but Bob may consider how such a practice reflects on him, and particularly in his capacity of [whatever] at TOC.  (Yes, I've seen the comment referring to unnamed "guttersnipes."  And guess what, I'm not offering my critical remarks from the safety of some distant blog.  I'm here to dish my licks as well as take them.)

Indeed, the practice of not naming one's critics, of speaking ill of even going over to "their" websites to engage in discussion, and so on in similar vein, is something I'd have expected to see from a leading figure at ARI some 10 years ago.  I post some explanation of why I no longer see the TOC deserving of particular mention for open inquiry and intellectual tolerance, and I observe in response . . . some behavior not particularly indicative of open inquiry and intellectual tolerance.  (First, by someone who I later discover is a lecturer at TOC, and now by some executive-figure there.)  Sort of a self-fulfilling-irony kind of deal?


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Post 119

Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
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Mike, there was a time back in the day on HPO where I would, from time to time, resort to not referring to certain people by name, because of the supposed inference that referring to them by name would grant them respect.  And you know what that behavior makes me feel like having been in retrospect?  Like an asshole, that's what.

(Edited by Chris Cathcart on 5/24, 8:49pm)


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