About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
To let everyone know: I've been fighting singlehandedly against Diana H, Linz, Jim V, Casey F, Fred W, Mike M, Joe M..and several other people arguing against Diana's recent essay in which she accuses Chris Sciabarra of being an evil and dishonest person. That debate is now probably coming to a close as far as I am concerned in probably a few days over on SP.

My reason for engaging in this time-consuming battle is this:

1. The uncontested absurdity, no matter how weak the case, eventually becomes accepted. Witness Schwartz's Libertarianism essay with its over-simplified view of a whole movement. No one stepped up to challenge it so people deferred to Peter's research on the grounds that "if he were wrong, there wouldn't be silence".
2. The stakes are higher than Chris S, who is not an Oist but a Rand scholar. It's the tactic of demonizing and character assassinating and driving away anyone who disagrees which has to be resisted.
3. This tactic has a certain momentum in the Objectivist movement and, unchecked, will destroy the movement internally and its chances for respectability externally.
4. It is a tactic that allows the cream to sink to the bottom or to abandon the movement, and the loyal but less intelligent or less productive to rise to the top.

I am outnumbered and getting swamped when I can't reply to four or five people in an "instant response team" attacking every statement. No one has that kind of time, especially when the intelligence of one's opponents varies as much as it does. However, I have been -extremely hesitant- to explicitly ask for help (and have certainly not wanted to open a duplicate thread on RoR that I would have to keep track of) because many of the people who defend Chris - or at least point to Diana as unjustly smearing him - are so angry or bitter that they would quickly turn get disgusted and turn it into a name-calling or unserious "making fun" or sarcasm contest.

Right now I (and Chris Cathcart who is on my side on -some- points) have managed to keep it on a (basically) civil level, which is unusual for long threads on heated and bitter issues..especially on SP over recent months. The person who has the strongest case and who fights for the truth has **nothing to gain from a food fight** (or a contempt fest or a whose dick is longer contest), because his arguments -- which require mental focus and precision and fair-mindedness -- get drowned out. No one is listening to him anymore. It's a barroom and they are continually pissed and they are out to GTOBWJP (Get That Other Bastard Who Just Posted).

For those who haven't reread Diana's encyclopedic attack, I've posted a half page summary of her case on the "QUESTIONS FOR DIANA" (not the "dialectical dishonesty") thread over there. I will post it again below. And now would be the time to comment on it over *there*, because it will probably be attacked, misstated, and undercut, short as it is. Please don't comment/support it *here*, as most people already agree on RoR that Diana's attack is unfair and it does absolutely no good and no one can keep up in two places: The debate is engaged -over there-. And I will use this summary post in my final posts *analyzing the case* on SP later this weekend or perhaps Monday or Tuesday.

I have spent entirely too much time on this and it is wearying. I am running out of time as I have other work to do. Now is the time when I need help from those who agree with me and can lift a keyboard finger or two to answer some of the side arguments that I just don't have time to swat down...if you can do it without angry insults or ad hominems. If you are so angry that you just can't, **please don't help me**.

It's two or three days of argument since it's winding down: Not only am I getting worn down and losing a few pounds, but my opponents are getting tired of fighting me, as evidenced by the fact that sometimes I have -only two people- attacking every statement I make :-)

Philip Coates

(needs a vacation and to do more pleasant things - who's paying for my flight to Hawaii? - maybe I'll send the bill to starving scholar Chris)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/13, 4:50pm)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 5:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Here is my summary post referred to above. Note the scope of the claim here: this is her most strongest, solid basis for saying, not merely that he was insulting or venting or 'lost it' on occasion, but that he is a fundamentally immoral and dishonest human being:



Subject: Smoking Gun

Going thru my outline and reviewing Diana's essay, I have been *summarizing her proofs* of Chris Matthew Sciabarra's dishonesty/immorality and this is what I have as what she gives as the "hard evidence" broken into two categories (evidence basically from others & evidence from Chris's own words). Is this a fair summary? Any missing hard, concrete evidence ("bullets") to add to these categories?

-Dialectical Dishonesty essay-
Moral Case against Chris S
Hard Evidence - Offered as Proof

"the truth about Chris Sciabarra is far worse -- and far more painful to me -- than I ever imagined possible"

A. Evidence Directly From Chris (email/precise quotes/public statements or writings)

1. called a Noodle Food poster (Mysterious Stranger) an SOB and a coward for hiding his identity [april 26, 2004-email to diana]
2. called Diana a dogmatist, likened her to "Comrade Sonia", said she rejects non-ARI scholarship, said that her calling homosexuality suboptimal is a sneaky and dishonest way of saying immoral [very recent 2006-email to joe]
3. said ARI people are sucking up and prostitutes, several ARI scholars are petrified of being cut off from support if they contribute to JARS. [2002-email to diana]
4. said Diana will be pressured to distance yourself from him, ARIans ghettoize themselves and won't even interface with people who ~might~ be considered "fellow travelers", ARI people will demand a choice from you if you want to be even closer to them [april 15, 2004-email to diana]
5. was two-faced: saying different things in public than in private. primary example: thanked Gotthelf while disagreeing with his critique [book preface], but complained and criticized in private [no quotes given]

B. Testimony from Others (people she has discussed this with or who have testified)

6. thanked the estate for timely correspondence on significant matters, implying sanction out of what was only a terse dismissal & Jim Powell falsely said Peikoff cooperated with the book [book preface, Peikoff, Ridpath, Powell]
7. had only one story about a particular scholar intimidated by ARI's money pressure, confirmed to be a lie.



Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'd help, but as I state here (http://www.jordanzimmerman.com/parc), I refuse to visit sites like Diana's. I think the best way to deal with her and her ilk is to ignore them. If they attack you or someone you care about post a defense. But do it in a way that doesn't give undue attention to the attacker. Don't let them get you into a back-and-forth. It does no good and only furthers their agenda. 

Post 3

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> I refuse to visit sites like Diana's.

It's not on her site.

> I think the best way to deal with her and her ilk is to ignore them.

I tried to explain in post 0 what happens when the uncontested absurdity is repeated over and over and no one steps up to challenge it. But actually you can look at history to see that.

> Don't let them get you into a back-and-forth.

Debates are always back and forth and enable you to make many points and respond to fallacies


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 5/13, 8:38pm)


Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
From what I've read there, Phil, they're not interested in facts - they've just become, as Robert B said, so low... and a pity, really...

Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert M. is right. They are NOT interested in facts. They are only interested in DESTRUCTION.

One little Randroid (and I heard her speak in person four years ago, long before any of this erupted, and saw then that she had a rigid, loyalist mentality) has said that despite Robert Campbell's assurances that he has documentation that Andrew Bernstein was NOT misrepresented or distorted in JARS, she does not believe it, that Robert and Chris Sciabarra are liars with no credibility for any statements or scholarly writings, etc. This is the pattern we are seeing now. Having been convicted in the Kangaroo Court on So-Low Bashin' of being "fundamentally dishonest," there is nothing anyone can do to defend himself from scurrilous, false accusations. Even if Robert or Chris presented incontrovertible documentary evidence (scanned emails, etc.), this would not be acceptable. Being "fundamentally dishonest" and untrustworthy, they would surely have resorted to falsifying and/or tampering with the documents, you see.

There is NO WAY to dialogue with people who are intent on DESTRUCTION, so don't try to kid yourself that there is. Withdraw the sanction of the victim, Phil, before you have a stroke or something.

Remember Dagny and "don't let it go"? Let it go. Not Objectivism, but dialoguing with those trying to destroy the good.

REB


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil,

From reading your posts over there and the replies by others, I don't see how you are going to be able to bring about closure in the debate other than simply disengaging and calling it a day.

Keep in mind that a precedent has been set with them as far as disclosure of private E-Mails go, so that if and when the shit hits the fan between their inner group, the resultant explosion should be worth  the price of front row tickets.

L W


Sanction: 46, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 46, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 46, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 46, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil, thanks for the condensed version of the rant. I was slightly curious about what the latest soap opera was all about, but not enough to bother finding out.

I can see your points about why you'd choose to engage them. It does seem that if you don't oppose the endless absurdities and lies, people take them as facts. I've recently experienced that with the lies spread about me.

I think there's a problem with this view. It basically positions the debate to favor the accusers. There's no obligation on their part to make a case. You're the one with the burden of proof. In some cases, you have to prove innocence with a presumption of guilt. In other cases, you have to try to prove that they haven't actually proved their case. But it means you have to be the one using proofs, reasoning, logic, well-defined terms, and proper epistemology. And they're able to be as irrational as they want. The defender has to be the one desperate to bring clarity and understanding to the topic, while the accuser can just spit in random directions.

This is especially true on a non-objective forum. The standards of good argument are thrown out, and emotions are the new standard of cognition. Whoever yells the loudest or more often, the "better" the argument. Appeals to reason are responded to by insults and accusations. Instead of a debate using facts and logic, the winner is viewed as whoever has the loudest side. It's social metaphysics, where the largest gang decides what's real. That was one of the problems I had with SoloHQ. I don't care who's right or wrong about the Brandens or any of the other food fights. Let the facts decide. But when someone made a completely irrational statement, he properly should be called on it. Instead, we had a bunch of high-fives. And it's obviously worse when one of the forum management is accepting the irrational terms of debate, let alone participating in it.

And that leads into your second motivation. Obviously this kind of approach favors demonizing and character assassination. Since an accusation is assumed true unless proven otherwise, the more outlandish the accusations, the stronger they are. Even if you manage to prove some minor accusation is factually incorrect, how do you prove that someone is not immoral through and through?

And so I disagree slightly with your third motivation. While this kind of thing does do serious harm to the Objectivist movement, it's not the demonizing itself that's the problem. That's just derivative. It's an effect of the bad epistemology. As long as people take accusations as true without proof, there will be that demonizing.

There's another question, though. Even if you decide it's important to argue their conclusions, isn't it a bigger problem to accept their terms of debate? If their accusations don't warrant much attention, isn't there a problem with giving it too much attention? By taking it seriously and methodically approaching the topic, doesn't it leave the impression that their approach is right, even if their particular accusation might be wrong?

I really don't know. Sometimes we're stuck with having to deal with non-optimal conditions if we want to get our own message out. I know when accusations were made towards me, I was happy to have people publically defend me. But at the same time, I also knew how futile it would be to do it myself, especially on that forum where loyalty is rated far above objectivity.

It's not optimal, but maybe it's necessary. And it's far better that you do it then for Chris to, since you can focus on the weakness of the accusations themselves, when Chris (by this bad epistemological standard) would have to try to disprove every random assertion thrown at him. It's still not optimal, since the accuser should be forced to actually make a case before people accept it as true (and the bigger the accusation, the more proof it should demand).

So while it's not a trip to Hawaii, here's a "Good job. Thanks".

And finally, you say "It is a tactic that allows the cream to sink to the bottom or to abandon the movement, and the loyal but less intelligent or less productive to rise to the top."

While I understand the sentiment, I disagree with the conclusion. If we're talking about the movement, these people will never rise to the top. There's no achievement or accomplishment there. They have nothing to offer but to attack those that have accomplished something, in order to make themselves appear better. While they may rise to the top in that perverse world of pseudo-Objectivism, let's not confuse it with a movement, let alone an Objectivist movement.

(Edited by Joseph Rowlands
on 5/18, 1:11pm)


Sanction: 28, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 28, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 28, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Philip:

We have been having a peripheral discussion regarding some of these issues here under the resurrected "When Men Become Nem" thread. In case you didn't see them, I expressed my views on the subject in posts #74, #81, #106, #130, #132 and #145. For some of the reasons I articulated on that thread, I agree with Jordan, Robert and Roger that it is futile to attempt to carry on a discussion with these people.

I appreciate your concern about not wanting to allow an "uncontested absurdity" become an "accepted fact" by default. However, their treatment of Chris is identical to their treatment of the Brandens ever since that site became the mouthpiece for Valliant, Fahy and PARC. And if there is only one lesson to be learned from that spectacle, it is that facts are no longer the currency of exchange there - if they ever were.

As Roger points out, the rules of the game are different from what you assume them to be, so you can never win in that environment. To draw an analogy, battling these folks on their own turf is like Wynand attempting to sway public opinion in favor of Roark. The "public" doesn't want to be swayed in favor of one man's virtue. That's the opposite of why they're reading the Banner in the first place! And there is a similar explanation why this group of folks hang around the SOLO site.

I have refused to waste my time exploring what went on between Chris, Diana and others. I'm simply not interested because the methods being employed are just plain wrong, regardless of the actual facts in this situation. However, when this hit the fan, I did send Chris a note expressing my disgust at what was transpiring and I said:

"I call myself an Objectivist, but I honestly can't stand many others who do. [...] There was a time when I held the romantic fantasy of one day living in Galt's Gulch. Now, I just hope it is created and that most of these "Objectivists" retire there from my view. They all deserve each other."

I like to think of SOLO as a mini-gulch and I'm happy to have the whole bunch remain there, leaving the remainder of the world a better place.

With regards to Chris's reputation, I'm not worried. He, like Nathaniel Branden, has created a body of work and made a contribution that can stand on its own. Each has had dramatically more influence on the thoughts of many other individuals and shaped the direction of our culture to a greater degree than the sum of all SOLO participants ever will.

Regards,
--
Jeff


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe:

Good post! I think you and I are saying the same thing is slightly different ways.
--
Jeff

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Maybe it's the water they're drinking over there - filtering it thru raw kiwis makes for strange brew....;-)

Sanction: 31, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 31, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 31, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I agree with all the responses to Phil so far. And I shall add only one other issue, drawn from his own original lament:

In believing that you must respond to every "uncontested absurdity," you surrender your time and life to those who spend their years manufacturing absurdities.

It is not rationally selfish to hand my schedule over to my enemies. Paying attention to the absurdists amounts to exactly that. It grants them more than just a "moral sanction": it also grants to them the power to dictate your use of your own time.

If you buy into their premise that unless you read their books and blogs or respond to their (unending) charges, you are an "evader," then you are hooked into accomodating their values and priorities, and jettisoning your own. I experienced such charges first-hand, from the founder of SO-LOW, quite a few months ago. Realizing that the game on his site was rigged in favor of those making charges, I refused to rise to the bait of personal accusations, and simply quit going to their sites. What they say, and about whom, doesn't matter to me.

Moreover, they have no influence at all on the wider world outside of their blogs. Since they produce nothing of interest to non-Objectivists, they are completely invisible to anyone except the handful who become obsessed with their ad hominem approach to life.

Their attack-dog methods have no values to offer me. Even if every charge they make against every new target were true, what do I have to gain, personally, from such knowledge about the private lives and foibles of individuals with whom I am barely acquainted, if at all??

In short, I am too selfish to give them my time.

And if others acted exactly that same way, by refusing to engage with these creeps over their infinite "charges," they would be compelled to attack each other. For in my observation, they LIVE for these accusations and denunciations, and for continuing debates about it all.

After all, how else can otherwise non-productive people convince themselves that they are truly concerned with "morality"?

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 5/15, 6:44am)


Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil,

You've made plenty of good arguments, over on SOLOP.

But as Roger pointed out, the major participants in the food fight there aren't interested in the difference between good and bad arguments.  When it comes right down to it, they don't give a damn about ideas--Rand's, or anyone else's.  They travel in packs, and they're primarily bent on destroying people whom they perceive as rivals to their pack.

It's been three weeks since I mentioned the coordinated banning and denunciation of Regi Firehammer on Diana Hsieh's blog (see http://www.solopassion.com/node/881).  That was an operation in which Jim Valliant, Casey Fahy, Mike Mazza, Boaz Simovici, and Joe Maurone all took part.  All of them have kept posting, yet there hasn't been one peep over at SOLOP about dropping the anvil on Firehammer.

It's time to let the SOLOPers "enjoy" one another's company, without backchat or distraction from outsiders.  My guideline for the last couple of years has been that when Fred Weiss (who recently demanded, you may recall, that Chris Sciabarra do penance for his entire life's work) feels comfortable on a message board, it's time for me to leave. Fred Weiss obviously feels comfortable on SOLOP...

Robert Campbell


Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 19, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil, I second Joe Rowlands, but have gone further in establishing a Hawaiian Vacation Fund for you. It currently stands at $17.50 (Cdn), which will get you halfway to the airport.

Here's my effort to do justice to your call, from SOLO (and snippeted to OL -- since the main wrestler did a simulcast, I figure so can I):


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



(from an article on La Lucha Libre at Bongo.net)

Que Wankero! - La Sciabarra Lucha Libre



I have read and re-read the internet simulcast / essay "Dialectical Dishonesty." I have read Phil's summary above and I have read Phil's announcement that he is wrapping up his efforts on two other forums, the Objectivist Living list and Rebirth of Reason (Wrapping up the Sciabarra fight -- in which he asks those who have sat outside the bullring and flicked their Bics and tossed off Mexican wrestling slogans [¡Que Hombre! º ¡Que Wankero! º ¡Cerebro del Mal! º ¡Dogmatista!] to have the courage to enter the ring for a tag-team finale).

I have read some 17,000 comments by sane and insane on Noodlefood, here, RoR, OL, and in backstage chatter and chatbox. Burp.
Having reached the nutritional requirement for this Extreme 'Coaster, I now must show good faith, good will, and good humour. Hmmm. How about I show the faith, will and humour shown by the likes of the screaming and beer-tossing wrestling fans . . . ?
. . .
The weak, pathetic attempts by list leaders and their courtiers to herd people into one claque or another speak for themselves (yes, I disagree with Roger Bissell; I disagree with Barbara Branden on rules of engagement; I stand with Ellen Stuttle on this narrow point -- Chris Sciabarra can honestly and with integrity sit out the entire grudge match, others may step in as they wish; there need be no Party Line):

I discount these comments and snipings as they are the styrofoam popcorn of discussion, giving buoyancy and bounce and padding, but null value as intellectual food ('TOC fraud-board' º 'Coates Syndrome' º '¡Desnucadora!' º 'Polish' º 'weasel-piss' º 'Dizzy Vertigo and Java the Moron' º ¡Que Wankero! º 'You can stow that "Stalinist" shit yourself' º '¡Guillotina!')**


(Bongo.net)

What remains are La Mertz' Four Points . . . and La Coates' Seven Wrestling Maniacs.



(Doctor Cerebro, from an image gallery
of Equator Books. Another good source of images can be found at SantoStreet.com
from which the movie picture at bottom is taken)


I only have enough time left above-ground to deal with two, one from La Mertz and one from La Coates. I have discussed hypocrisy and sham reasoning elsewhere.

DMS:

(3) I've discovered that Chris now smears me as a turncoat and
dogmatist in private correspondence with others, despite recent
assurances to me of his persistent "fond feelings for our past
friendship." He grossly misrepresents my views on homosexuality
and scholarship. He wrongly implies that I've violated my
promise to refrain from public criticism of him and his work.
He's even called me "the veritable Comrade Sonia of
Objectivism." Even worse, he does all that while holding me to
silence about him through my promise, even though I offered
that consideration based upon the illusion of friendship.

PC:

2. called Diana a dogmatist, likened her to "Comrade Sonia",
said she rejects non-ARI scholarship, said that her calling
homosexuality suboptimal is a sneaky and dishonest way of
saying immoral [very recent 2006-email to joe] 3. said ARI
people are sucking up and prostitutes, several ARI scholars are
petrified of being cut off from support if they contribute to
JARS. [2002-email to diana]

To both of these numbered statements, I must reply that I lack full context. Diana has not published the full text of these notes, and I must reserve judgement.

With regard to the notion that it was Chris who held Diana to her promise, as if a knife to her throat -- this is risible. It was she who needlessly and bizarrely insisted on this unusual arrangement.

Purely personal impressions of the supposed "smoking gun" evidence are worthless, perhaps, but entertaining. Those who are prone to heart failure on reading plain talk must take a pill . . .



I don't find La Mertz has done her job. I would much rather read 12,500 words on philosophy. I believe she blundered badly in publishing the denunciation. She has hobbled her own reputation as she attempted to bring down Chris. It was unseemly and sad and a touch paranoid. She has gone on at massive length, and even dropped down out of the bleachers into an increasingly exasperated and mudslinging mexican wrestling match gone bad. She has ranted on at length while Sciabarra is serene and distant. She is all mucked up now. He is distant and clothed in white robes of silence. He can fairly claim in future to have been unaware of La Lucha Libre and La Cyclopa v. Diablo Dialecto.

That't the take home for me.

I look forward to Diana turning the frigging page and showing us some Real Work, turning the page back to her work, turning forward to her aims and goals, getting all one-eyed about Work, showing why some of us consider her near-genius, and a fine warrior princess of the Objectivist Movement. Even if she is the Temple Grandin of the O-world, there is no reason to deny her achievements, no reason not to cheer her on to further accomplishments. Sure, she stumbled, but she is a human of great promise, ever redeemable by any benevolent measure of humankind.

Let's clean up the arena now, spectators and combatants.

Let's MOVE ON. To those Mysterious Strangers waaaay up in the nosebleeds, it's time to quit shrieking º '¡Que Hombre!' -- it makes you seem suboptimal and unfortunate in the extreme.


WSS
_______________

**(in reality, most consumers of Objectivist Death-Pit Lucha Libre Snack Bar will have a tummy-ache right now if they ate the popcorn. Judging by biliousness, some have had a bushel)





Post 14

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan, the Three Roberts, Roger, Joe, Jeff, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the value / effectiveness of my fight, and only I can decide if my time is worth it...obviously if I barely have time to conduct that battle, I can't battle all of you / take the time to respond to each of your positions :-)

By the way, I just realized that some people who haven't followed all this will take my condensation of the hard evidence Diana presents as proving what she claims it does.

So how about if we convert this thread into Phil's Logic Puzzle #75:

"Who can state most elegantly or precisely what is -wrong- and -logically fallacious- with Diana's seven points, even if they are all true, as an indictment of Chris (or anyone) as a dishonest and immoral person?"

(the usual prizes will be awarded)

Post 15

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is the sort of pointed and Socratic questioning that arrives at the truth. It is analogous to the controlled experiment in the special sciences.

By the way, I have a theory of how, for example, Diana Mertz Hsieh got herself into this mental mess, but it will have to wait until I have the time and fortitude to deal with Internet exchanges (ditto for my answer to the determinism of Roger Bissell and William Dwyer). I do tend to agree, with Nathaniel Branden, that she may one day snap out of it. Not that I care much.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 5/14, 1:21pm)


Post 16

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I agree wholeheartedly with Joe Rowlands post.

For your efforts, Phil, I offer my kudos, for whatever that's worth. Trip to Hawaii? Not yet :-)

Ethan


Post 17

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would trivialize this with sacastic humor but that would be gilding the lily.


Sanction: 43, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 43, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 43, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 43, No Sanction: 0
Post 18

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil – Thanks for your post. And thanks for the responses from Joe, the Roberts and others.

As you know, I retired from these food fights long ago. I too have better things to do, like write op-eds, pieces for The New Individualist, etc. Also I agree with those who observe that the other sites are characterized by name-calling and extremely bad epistemology.

The question of whether to respond to nonsense is a thought one. I’ve generally ignored – in most cases not even read – the attacks on TOC/TAS and not responded to them. In part this is my Roark approach that "I don’t think of you" because I’m trying to write my next article or do something that really interests and excites me. I also don’t consider these little Nibelungen worth responding to for the same reason I don’t stop and debate the Lyndon LaRouche cultists who stand on the corner near our offices ranting and raving. I just don’t take them seriously and don’t want to treat them as if their arguments are valid ones that deserve to be addressed.
I think your motives Phil are very admirable. You find it tough to sit by and listen to utter nonsense and injustice without rolling up your intellectual sleeves and doing something about it. (Sorry for the weird metaphor.) I personally don’t have the interest or stomach for it.

You also can worry about the effects of these slanders on those who read those websites. That’s a mixed situation. I don’t agree fully with your evaluation of the effects of the Schwartz screed against libertarians; Cato, the Reason Foundations and a dozen other groups that can be described as libertarian are doing quite well – better than all of the Objectivist groups combined. And even given our disagreements with particular libertarians, most of us recognize what we have in common with them. (Linz gave a good discussion on this at TOC in Vancouver in 2004.)

Also I would hope that if our friends and members have questions for us, they would simply call or email and not expect to read the answers on those other websites.

I’ll add several points to those already made.

I can understand why particular individuals might not want to deal with others, based perhaps on what they see as a moral failings. Linz, who I defended on the charges of alcoholism, might have good reason to not want to deal with Barbara. And I can understand why some might have a more negative view of the Brandens, And I can understand why individuals might disagree with me or others on a whole list of things.

But what I don’t understand is the rage, anger, name-calling and obsession with denunciations. It has to do with a profound misunderstanding about morality sanctioning and an unrealistic, non-objective view of human beings. For example, one can judge Nathaniel Branden harshly for how he handled his relations with Ayn Rand and still recognize his excellent, cutting-edge work in psychology where he applied Objectivism. One might admire the interesting thoughts and insights of Linz, regret his name-calling and other failings and see the situation as sad and tragic.

There’s something about the quality of will of the types who rant on other websites that do not strike us as honest, thoughtful, prudent and balanced. These seem to be virtues that they lack and thus aspects of the moral failings that lead them to act as they do, failings that deserve our condemnation.

We cannot build a society based on Objectivist principles if these virtues are absent and if their behavior is taken to represent our principles.


Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 6:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed wrote:

"We cannot build a society based on Objectivist principles if these virtues are absent and if their behavior is taken to represent our principles."

Boy, I agree with this. This seems completely obvious to me. When I ask why it isn't practiced more, the only conclusion I can draw is that building a better society is not the goal of all this energy that is being expended. It is an interesting question to consider, what then, are the actual goals behind those efforts?
--
Jeff

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.