Wrapping Up the Sciabarra Fight

WSS- To Linz' credit, he admitted he hadn't warned you before, so lifted the moderation. http://www.solopassion.com/node/979#comment-8547

Post 61

Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 6:38pm

Maybe I'm coming way late to this whole TOC/Perigo rift to have the relevant context. Maybe the idea of issuing and receiving and commenting on these mano-a-mano challenges involves premises that one side sees in the other but doesn't accept as a premise upon which to enter discussion. Here's the way I see it, though: Linz made his point pretty straightforwardly. He is willing to debate the issues in good faith. If you see it as him having made an accusation of you (Ed H.) and then inviting you to come over to prove that it's not so, I just don't see it that way.

Like I showed a bit in Linz's own back yard just last night, these verbal lobs from hither to yonder (often characterized by not even acknowledging names) provides for humor value, but perhaps some growing up is in order. If you guys don't care to get your palms dirty delving into the muck of The Other Guy's Hellhole, there is HPO, after all. But from this poster's standpoint, I see too much excuse-making for avoiding discussions which can in principle be carried on in good faith.

A bunch of this seems to revolve around PARC, and evidently TOC doesn't accept as a premise that stuff related to Rand's personal life isn't of its concern. Newbie to this that I am, this strikes me as a pretty narrow way of looking at it. And it wouldn't take too much effort to simply clear up how this stance jibes with David Kelley's comment about what the importance/usefulness of The Passion of Ayn Rand is as far as its portrayal of Rand the person goes. Either Rand the person is on the table or it isn't, and it's also on the table whether PARC is so narrow as to be concerned only with Rand's personal life. Just as an exercise in concretization, isn't Rand's life a great place to start as far as real-life concretization of principles goes? (Silly me, I'm going on an on about PARC even though I still need to read it.)

Anyway, I'm more than happy to serve as gadfly both "here" and "there" and help cut through all the B.S. I find a place more interesting when I can encounter interesting disagreement. ;-) BTW, you'll notice that Linz as well as I are in general basic accord that the ARI appears to be moving in a good direction because of BS [Binswanger-Schwartz] culture toning itself down there. Like so many others on all sides of the disputes, his heart is exactly in the place it should be: what's in the best future interests of the spread of Objectivism. That's his primary concern in making his offer/challenge to Ed. You don't have to particularly like how he makes his points to see that. All it takes is a thick skin and you're all set. :-)

Post 62

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 7:39am

Aaron, yes, I am pleased with the 'oops, can't say I'm sorry, but actually yer not moderated after all. Don't attack your host. This is your warning, pinhead (shown in my [NO PICTURES] "I'm not sure who's the bigger asshole.') retraction.

WSS

[Edit: fixed link]
(Edited by William Scott Scherk
on 5/17, 1:43pm)

Post 63

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:28am

William SS,
Forgive me for another perhaps far-fetched communist China analogy (must be the age thing). Your posting style reminds me of how some people expressed themselves during 70s and 80s in China, in particular, the Misty Poets. At the beginning, the authorities didn't know what to make of those Misty poets. By the time they finally realized what Misty poets were really saying, those poets already became hugely popular in the country and even internationally. So they couldn't do much to them. It is thus curious to me how have you developed your style.

But, here is the difference: some misty poems are among my all time favorites, while the "aesthetics" of your posts, urrrgh, indeed could have given some sensitive people nightmares!

Post 64

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:07pm

What I'm trying to get my arms around is the ends justify the means behavior displayed by many Objectivists. In the case of the Reismans/ARI, Diana Hsieh felt that George Reisman's publication of private correspondence was a betrayal of trust. In the case of Diana Hsieh/ Chris Sciabarra she felt she was justified. In both cases there was some personal conflict that was private and spilled out into the public sphere.In the Reisman case, George Reisman was defending himself and his reputation. In the Hsieh/Sciabarra case Hsieh is defending nonspecified ARI scholars and herself against nonpublic characterizations.

In any case, it seems the bar releasing many Objectivists from confidentiality and prior commitments is rather low. It is an end justifies the means argument of the following form: I no longer like or respect you, therefore all my previous commitments to you are null and void. The history of the Objectivist movement is filled with such pronouncements. This obviously does nothing to moderate or contain conflicts and makes those involved look rather silly.

Jim

Post 65

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:24pm

Jim,
I agree with you, except this part:

What I'm trying to get my arms around ...

I think you need a better metaphor. I wouldn't touch some of these people even if I was wearing an isolation suit.
Glenn

Post 66

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 12:32pm

I think William SS is charming, very friendly, and more often than not, terribly funny. A "pin head" he's not. I enjoy his casual, almost yawning, "feet up on the desk," extra dry wit, sometimes cleverly disguised as deep thought.

Post 67

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 5:12pm

Chris C,

I think perhaps you are coming to SOLOP without some relevant historical background. There is much that can be learned from the archives of the old SOLOHQ, which are most easily accessed right here at RoR.

I actually agree with Mr. Valliant and his defenders on something: I recommend that everyone in Rand-land read The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics. That's because I trust most readers to respond rationally to Mr. Valliant's contentions, and I doubt that most have a personal stake in "the moral perfection of Ayn Rand." I am convinced that the more widely Mr. Valliant's book is read, the worse it is going to go for those who want to substitute the worship of Ayn Rand's person for a careful and thoughtful appreciation of her ideas.

I have also recommended that biographies and memoirs concerning Rand (including PARC) be reviewed in TOC publications.

On the supposedly favorable trends at the Ayn Rand Institute, let me reproduce part of a post I made yesterday on OL:

I don't see how Lindsay Perigo can complain about the "B-S" (Binswanger-Schwartz) culture at ARI, on the one hand, and insist, on the other, that the ARIans who now post on SOLOP have moved past that culture.

Because, so far, none of the ARI-aligned contributors to SOLOP have criticized a single action taken by either Harry Binswanger or Peter Schwartz.

Which leads me to infer that either

(a) they all approve of every action taken by Binswanger or Schwartz

or

(b) some of them may not approve of some actions taken by Binswanger or Schwartz--but no way do they dare say so on a public forum.

So much for the purported signs of progress at ARI.

If you're inclined to believe that Mr. Perigo and his present allies don't play dirty, you should ask them on SOLOP about dropping the anvil on Regi Firehammer--an operation that took place on April 6, in a comments thread on Ms. Hsieh's blog.

Robert Campbell

Post 68

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:14am

Hong, I appreciate the link and mention of the Misty Poets! I was ignorant and this will open another room in my understanding of the Cultural Revolution (I very much enjoyed your earlier carefully scribed analogy, if not the consternation that followed). This is glorious material -- it is nostalgic but strangely biting. What do you think of the subsequent movements in Chinese poetry?

Were there, are there, anything like the Misty Painters?

-- I note also that general sites and mentions of the Misty Poets relate their suppression and/or deportation in the aftermath of the events of 1989.

I am intrigued by your comment: "It is thus curious to me how have you developed your style.'

Navel-gazer pomowankero would say his personal style is a reflection of his values and behavioural quirks -- I was alway Sunny, but I was also always Cynical. I was a puny thing among giants, and my defence was critical, all-senses-heightened appraisal. Wary then, although temperamentally empathic and socialable and optimistic, but the results of the appraisals only deepening my resolve to be ever watchful of repression of reason . . .

WSS

_____

PS . . . Hong Zhang, could we ever convince you to join in a chatbox some morning or night? IF you had a rough dozen seats at the table, who would you invite from your O-lists acquaintances to the live Hong Zhang Show?

Post 69

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 3:45pm

This is glorious material ---it is nostalgic but strangely biting

William,
Wow, that described exactly how I felt about those poems!

Interesting that you asked about Misty Painters. The most famous Misty poet, Bei Dao, was actually married to one of the prominent contemporary Chinese painter, Shao Fei. They have a daughter together. Shao did most of the book covers for Bei Dao's poems. But I believe they are divorced now.

I don't think there was anything like Misty Poets among the painters. I remember in the mid 80s, the most revolutionary and shocking event in the art world was an exhibition of nudes at Beijing Art Museum. Of course it was a big sell-out and we all went to see it.

As for my comment, when I sit down and really read your post, I think I understand it crystal clear, just as I understand some of those Misty Poems. But I don't always have the time!

IF you had a rough dozen seats at the table, who would you invite from your O-lists acquaintances to the live Hong Zhang Show?

Arrrrgh, I'd be scared to death meeting anyone through the Internet!

PS. For those who are interested, I've posted one of the "misty" poems by Shu Ting here.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 5/18, 3:55pm)

Post 70

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 4:04pm

I think WSS meant a virtual chat. I think it'd be fun. By the way, I've met 2 people in person whom I met first on the Internet, and they were both perfectly nice -- although there are a few people online that I wouldn't want to meet!

Post 71

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 4:25pm

William,
Oh, maybe there was something similar to "Misty Poets" in art back then in China - check out the Star Group of artists. Shao Fei belonged to this group.

Hi Laurie, I am scared of virtual chat too. Very bad at typing.

Post 72

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 4:46pm

Would be nice to see exactly what they painted, and the contrast to the officialdom...

Post 73

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 4:54pm

Hong, two questions, one observation, and many thanks.

-- the Bei Dao page you linked to notes:

Searching for a fresh poetics, many of China�s new writers of the Seventies experimented with "free verse" in a hermetic, semi-private language characterized by oblique, oneiric imagery and elliptical syntax. That linguistic style, in which subject, tense, and number are elusive and transitions are unclear, came to be called "menglong shi," or "misty poetry."

The idea of subject, tense and number being unclear strikes as something difficult to translate into English -- is this right (is my syntax elliptical)? If so, can you give us an example where a stanza or two leaves these attributes unclear . . . ?

I also wondered about the hinge of Chinese poetry on the characters. The slight differences [HK, Taiwan, PRC] in official orthography -- does this matter with the Misty Poets? I imagine that the sonorities of regional dialects are not the carrying force of the poems, but the personal voice inside the head that speaks the words.

Is that right? Are the Misty Poets read out loud in Cantonese and in Mandarin, to standard effect?

I really like this stuff in English translation. How does it cross that linguistic divide?

-- I could have used nostalgia plain without its not so obvious cognate as pain and sickness of heart -- a pathological longing for yesterday (e.g., arthralgia, neuralgia, pining away for the the Good Old Days), but I find we sometimes forget that English words once sharp are now blunt.

I'm glad I managed to express an aspect of your reaction in my meagre English, Hong! These became touching, painful poems on publication, but even more so in the aftermath of 1989. No less so today. Very powerful stuff. When that distant day comes and the Party falls in China, these poems will perhaps be brought on stage for the occasion (the June ones for example)? -- or do I mistake their importance in Chinese letters/civics? The surely carry a wallop on the page.

Good stuff, thanks again -- those with the occasional O-ist distaste for emotion might find these poems hopelessly fluid and dreamy and thematically diffuse . . . but a close attention serves up emotion to whack home the point. I really really like this stuff.

WSS

Post 74

Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 8:08pm

William,
I am not even sure what exactly does "a hermetic, semi-private language characterized by oblique, oneiric imagery and elliptical syntax" mean. But you can find some translated poems by representative Misty poets Bei Dao, Shu Ting, Gu Cheng and Mang Ke here under "Morden Chinese Poetry". Though the selections are very limited and translations are not always the best that I've seen.

The "Anwers" by Bei Dao written in the last year of the Cultural Revolution (1976) was probably THE most famous poem in the post-Mao China. Those poems were hugely popular in the late 70s and 80s, especially among college students. Yes, they had a huge influence on China's intellectual societies.

Despite all the dialects, the written Chinese characters are basically the same everywhere. Mainland uses a further simplified version than Taiwan and HK, but the meaning and pronunciation of the character are the same. All the formal Chinese literary works are supposed to be read out in Mandarin. Otherwise it will be too weird!

I think that the vivid imagery that is used extensively in those poems may be one of the reasons that they still are powerful after translation. Another example here.

Post 75

Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 1:49pm

For some reason, In Praise of Hijacking comes to mind.

:D

LLAP
J:D

Post 76

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 6:39am

> For some reason, In Praise of Hijacking comes to mind.

You mean I never started a thread on the misty poets?

Post 77

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 6:26am

Well, I have finally made it to this board. This stuff with Diana has been interesting. I knew ten years ago that Diana was someone not to be trusted. Finally, everyone else in the TOC community is seeing it as well.

Please do not ask me to publicize my reasoning here. I have told some people my reasons privately.

Chris

Post 78

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 8:08am

But publicizing the details of private, personal conflicts is Objectivist tradition!

Post 79

Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 11:43am