About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Post 80

Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Milenberg said, "It is immediately obvious from looking at him [Peikoff] that he is devoid of the focussed rational state of mind characterized by Objectivist principles. What he projects in his manner is not rationality, selfishness, etc. but the selflessness and the ethnic collectivism of the jews."

You really believe that you can tell all of that by just looking? That statement is grossly irrational and the antisemitism is offensive. And your pompous pronouncements on Rand's character are laughable. Why don't you tell us a little about the great accomplishments that have rolled forth from the actions of your sterling character - we need to know so that we don't mistakenly categorize you as an inconsequential mediocrity.

Post 81

Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Milenburg said:

"It is immediately obvious from looking at him that he is devoid of the focussed rational state of mind characterized by Objectivist principles. What he projects in his manner is not rationality, selfishness, etc. but the selflessness and the ethnic collectivism of the jews.
but the selflessness and the ethnic collectivism of the jews.

You certainly could try to make this sort of statement, if you went to the trouble of explaining yourself very carefully and backing it up with a lot of cold hard argument. What a tall order - demonstrating that a typical sort of collectivism is characteristic of Jews and that Rand shared that collectivism! I have heard every slander against her except this one.

But as a throw away line it is a reprehensible.


Post 82

Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Peikoff was selected by Rand as her intellectual heir
That is the error many make - she did NOT so designate - he was only designated as her executor... he himself designated himself as the 'intellectual heir'...


Post 83

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 4:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Wolfer replies:

You really believe you can tell all that by just looking?
Yes.  In fact it is impossible not to notice it.  Since the mind controls the body, the contents of the mind are projected through body language.  The character traits a person possesses are expressed in this manner.  It is possible to distinguish between mystics and rational people, selfless and selfish people, collectivist and individualist people just by the way they behave.  Character traits may be projected more obviously in some cases than others, requiring in some cases less or more perceptivity than others, but in the case of Leonard Peikoff the selflessness and ethnic collectivism of the jews is so plainly visible that a five year old could not mistake them. 

He continues:
. . .  and the antisemitism is offensive.
Antisemitism should not be offensive to any advocate of reason.  The jews recognize and accept two pathways into judaism.  The first is the acceptance of the religion of judaism, the second is being born of jewish parents.  This makes judaism not only a form of mysticism, but also a form of ethnic collectivism, leaving it in contradiction to rational philosophy on two central points.  No advocate of rational philosophy should have anything but contempt for the jews, (as well as the advocates any other form of mysticism or ethnic collectivism.) 

It is important to remember that the choice of a philosophy, and this includes any form of religion, represents a free choice for which one is morally accountable.  You can blame christians for being christians, muslims for being muslims, etc. and there is no reason to exempt jews from the same.  This is not like being of a given sex or race to which the issue of choice does not apply. 

He continues:
 . . .  your pompous pronouncements about Rand's character are laughable.
Actually, my judgement about Rand's character is quite accurate.  Reading "The Passion of Ayn Rand" I observed a picture of a very disturbed and irrational woman.  For example,
1) Rand was a two pack a day smoker for many years.  She tossed away any concerns for the unhealthiness of this with the argument that relation between smoking and lung cancer were mere correlations and proved nothing.  But when Rand contracted lung cancer herself, she immediately stopped smoking.  Why was it when other people smoked and got cancer it is merely a correlation, but when it happened to her it suddenly became a causal relationship?  And after years of falsely advising her own followers about this and it became apparent that she had made a mistake, her response to making a statement of correction?  "It's nobody's business."  She was willing to make it somebody else's business prior to this point, why it is not their business now?  All I can see here are the rationalizations of a drug user and the insecurity of a person afraid of tarnishing her intellectual aura by admitting a mistake. 

2) She stated that she did not think a woman should be president because man should be the leader, and woman should look up to man, the essence of her femininity being hero worship.  Yet she herself married a man who was only a bit part player actor and a retail clerk in a tobacco shop, who because of her affair with Nathaniel Branden became an alcoholic, and thus who was grossly inferior to herself both in intellect and personal strength.  And if this were not enough, she often complemented him, in front of others, about his intellect and perceptiveness.  What I see here is a person who just made up reality to suit herself.

3)Rand went to Hollywood and worked as a writer.  Any association with the Hollywood movie establishment is immoral because it employs actors.  Acting is an immoral profession, since it requires that one pretend to be someone else, thus contradicting the virtue of rationality through pretension and selfishness through the abandonment of one's one identity, and thus all of Hollywood is immoral by association.  Rand should have seen the blatant contradiction in this but she failed to do so, and from this I can only conclude that she simply evaded it.  

4)Of all the things that Rand did that convinced me she was a fame seeking hypocrite, her selection of Leonard Peikoff as her heir was the one that pushed my judgement into the realm of certainty.  For her to call this loud mouthed jackass "brilliant", to judge him worth all the hours of her time she expended pounding philosophy into his thick head, to even imagine a man this small could lead a philosophical revolution of this scale, would require a person who truly lived in a fantasy world.   

I can go on with other examples, but this should be sufficient, to support this conclusion:  Rand did not to any significant extent live up to her principles, and her Objectivism existed only in the fantasy world of her novels and in abstract philosophical discussion. 

And finally,
Why don't you tell us a little about the great accomplishments that have rolled forth from the actions of your sterling character - we need to know so that we don't mistakenly categorize you as an inconsequential mediocrity. 
I could, and I have developed quite a bit of new theory that is light years ahead of the current level, but this has nothing to do with the correctness of my criticisms of Rand and Peikoff. 

Now Mr. Keer writes,
What a tall order- demonstrating that a typical sort of collectivism is characteristic of  the Jews . . .
No, this is easily done.  When the principle of self ownership, is suspended, some new ethical standard must take its place, and this standard must be ownership by others.  It is in this way that individualism is supplanted by collectivism.  This gives the tribe the right to impose its own ways upon the members, and each of various tribes, being separate from the other, will set up its own standards, ie. beliefs, social customs, traditions etc. which will uniquely characterize its own form of collectivism.  For example, Nazism is a form of collectivism characterized by atheism, socialism, fascism and aryan supremacy, communism is a form characterized by atheism, socialism, totalitarianism but without racial considerations, etc.  Judaism is characterized by its religious beliefs and ceremonies, social customs such as bar mitzvahs, bat mitzvahs, dress, beards, etc.  

And also,
. . . that Rand shared that collectivism!
I did not say Rand was a jewish collectivist, but that she was a fame seeking hypocrite.  And the above establishes this quite well.

Now Mr. Malcom writes,
That is the error many make - she did not so designate - he was only designated as her executor
On this point I may be wrong.  I thought she made him her legal and intellectual heir, as I have read so.  If this is not true all I can say is that Peikoff's appropriation of this title only goes to further prove my point about him, and for Rand to give him even this was a disastrous mistake not far removed.


Post 84

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I suggest we cast (immoral) Hollywood Star Crispin Glover as Mr. Milenberg



Post 85

Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ted, that was as painful to watch as Mr. Milenberg was to read. If anyone has ever has entertained any doubts as to the need for to integrate their emotional side, to not attempt to be a Vulcan - Here is the why, here is a demonstration of the consequences of not doing so. Too much emotional repression causes a disconnect in the logical processor for we humans.

Post 86

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Milenberg,

From your writing I can see that you intellectually hold -- or at least feign the holding of -- (most of the) Objectivist principles. What kind of reading or other interactions led you to holding most of them like you do?

Was it primarily Rand that made your thinking improve? Did you profit from reading the writings of others more than from reading the writings of Rand?

Ed


Post 87

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It is clear that the three of you do not like what I wrote in my Post #83.  If you can refute any of it, then proceed. 

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 10/22, 8:36am)


Post 88

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Milenberg,

I'd like to see you proceed to answer my three questions from post 86.

Ed


Post 89

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Robert, do you really equate acting with lying? Would you, like Lionel Hutz, sue the makers of "The Neverending Story"?

Post 90

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Thompson:  

1) I'm not sure what you mean by "hold them like I do" but I hold them literally and without compromise and by my own uninfluenced choosing.

2) Yes.  The primary improvement I found through reading Rand was to always precisely define all concepts which are used and exert sufficient mental effort for a sufficient time so as to see their meaning with complete clarity. 

3) No.  The value I derived from reading Rand grossly outweighs any value I derived from reading anything else.  The Libertarian Manifesto, by Rothbard and varioius books by Nathaniel Branden were only very mildly helpful.  The philosophy courses I took in college (as required electives, not by my free choice) were utterly useless. 

Mr. Keer:

Yes, lying is exactly what acting is.  Irrational, reality faking, schizophrenic lying.

And now that I have complied with your requests . . . ?

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 10/22, 12:43pm)


Post 91

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

So, according to your premises, Atlas Shrugged, with its "Rearden Metal" and "Taggart Trans-continental" and the playboy "Francisco Domingo Carlos Andres Sebastian D'Anconia" is also one big lie, no?

Post 92

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
False.  Atlas Shrugged is a novel and does not employ actors.  Only movies of fictional stories do this. 

Post 93

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

So you don't really mind lies. Just the depiction of lies by actors?

Post 94

Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ted, this is funny! Hahaha! : )

Robert E. Milenberg, I'd think you'd prefer to differentiate between deceit and acting. The former is an intentional transfer of incorrect information, the latter is... haha acting is using more than words (such as making one's body go through the movements) to describe a fictional/historical situation. I do not see how it is harmful. Anyways!

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 95

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Milenberg,

Thank you for admitting that, as authors and philosophers go, none comes close to Rand (when it's values and reality on the line).

You asked if there are any folks here who can refute any part of what you said in post 83. I have some comments:

1) Rand was a two pack a day smoker for many years.  She tossed away any concerns for the unhealthiness of this with the argument that relation between smoking and lung cancer were mere correlations and proved nothing.  But when Rand contracted lung cancer herself, she immediately stopped smoking.  Why was it when other people smoked and got cancer it is merely a correlation, but when it happened to her it suddenly became a causal relationship? 
This reasoning trades on two ambiguities. One is the etiology of cancer as something that has necessary steps, such as initiation and promotion. Nothing can promote what hasn't been initiated. You have to initiate something first, before you can promote its progress (you can get racers to race faster, but only after the race, itself, starts).  Bringing this around to the point at hand, it is possible that smoking didn't initiate cancer -- but promoted it once it was initiated. There are instances of compounds which don't initiate cancer, but promote it. If smoking were one, then it would be fine to smoke all day -- unless you found out you had cancer (and then it would be good to stop).

The other ambiguity is the idea that smoking's immoral because it may shorten the length of your life. But length of life is not the most important thing, quality of life is. If you gave me two lives to pick from, a long tribal life of semi-starvation, daily fear of death, and constant, back-breaking toil -- and a shorter life in a rights-respecting society where I could produce value and profit from it -- I'd opt for the shorter life.

And smoking may have given Rand a better quality of life, too (even if she traded 4-8 years in length for it). Indeed, Rand was quite clear that morality is about living (motivated by love), not about avoiding death (motivated by fear).

Consider that a refutation.

2) She stated that she did not think a woman should be president because man should be the leader, and woman should look up to man, the essence of her femininity being hero worship.  Yet she herself married a man who was only a bit part player actor and a retail clerk in a tobacco shop, who because of her affair with Nathaniel Branden became an alcoholic, and thus who was grossly inferior to herself both in intellect and personal strength.


You're John Galt-ifying Rand here. Real love isn't omnipotent and perfect like it is in novels. Instead, real love is a chore and a skill. It's a wonderful chore, but it's still hard work -- and folks, because they're folks (not gods), do it imperfectly. Even folks who write about perfect love, live -- and love -- imperfectly.

Now, that's not as perfect a refutation as is the one above, but that's all I've got on that.  
3)Rand went to Hollywood and worked as a writer.  Any association with the Hollywood movie establishment is immoral because it employs actors.  Acting is an immoral profession, since it requires that one pretend to be someone else, thus contradicting the virtue of rationality through pretension and selfishness through the abandonment of one's one identity, and thus all of Hollywood is immoral by association.
But this argument can be extended to anything that re-creates reality (i.e., to all art). And, since art has objective value for man on Earth -- and since your argument can be extended, without contradiction, to all art -- then your argument is wrong: via reductio ad absurdum.

Here is the process:

=====================
A sculptor makes a likeness of himself but with some indulgences (his statue is physically superior to himself).

You come along and say: "Hey! You're biceps aren't really that big! That's pretension and abandonment of identity! You're immoral!"

The sculpture responds: "Hey! I realize what life is like. I'm sculpting life as it could or should be like. I'm concretizing abstractions of good, beauty, prowess, and virtue! What art have you ever created?"
 =====================

Consider that a second refutation.

4)Of all the things that Rand did that convinced me she was a fame seeking hypocrite, her selection of Leonard Peikoff as her heir was the one that pushed my judgement into the realm of certainty.  For her to call this loud mouthed jackass "brilliant", to judge him worth all the hours of her time she expended pounding philosophy into his thick head, to even imagine a man this small could lead a philosophical revolution of this scale, would require a person who truly lived in a fantasy world. 
I sense in you a disturbance in the Force. Give in to your anger, Jedi Milenberg, and feel the full power of the Dark Side!

:-)

In other words, you hate Peikoff and it clouds your judgment. Anything done that merely can even be seen to be something that helps Peikoff would be evil, in your eyes. But geniuses seek students and invest in them. Just because they're geniuses doesn't mean they'll scour the earth for their whole life before investing. Instead, they will get feedback from those available to them and test the waters close to home. At some point, they'll make a decision that one of their available peers deserves more investing than the others.

That's it and that's all. It's not more complicated than that (as much as you'd seem to like to make it).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/23, 8:33am)


Post 96

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Crispin Glover was very funny there - it kind of reminded me of Andy Kaufman - awesome - I don't think Dave got it. 

Acting is NOT immoral - that is absurd.  It is a form of entertainment.


Post 97

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Kurt, my understanding is that Glover was off his meds.

Post 98

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There is no distinction between deceit and acting.  I would accept the definition that deceit is "the intentional transfer of incorrect information."  Acting is precisely this, and it does not matter if this information is transferred verbally by means of auditory perception or pictorially by means of visual perception, since either transfers information and in the case of acting, both are deceitful by this definition.  Further, it does not matter whether or not you are aware of the deceit, because in either case, a lie remains a lie.

If it is not seen how acting is harmful then this point should taken up, because it is harmful and extremely so.  The problem is that it contradicts the virtues of selfishness and rationality.

Rationality requires that reality be held as the standard of truth.  Acting requires that the imaginary world defined in a script be held as a standard of truth.  Thus, acting directly subverts rationality.  (It is important to differentiate imagination from pretension.  Imagination is the conception of something that does not exist.  Pretension is believing that what is imagined is actually real.  Acting is not imagination, since when what is imagined becomes the standard of truth, what is imagined is what is believed, and thus it is pretension.)  In philosophy this is called irrationality, in psychology it is called schizophrenia, in Hollywood it is called the suspension of disbelief. 

Selfishness requires that one act consistently with one's own self interest, and to do this one must know one's own identity, and this means to be able to list the attributes one possesses and to always act consistently with them.  Acting requires that a person adopt a set of attributes which define some other person, normally an imaginary one, and in accordance with them.  Thus, acting directly subverts selfishness.  (Do not think that because a person chooses to act with his own self that it is selfish.  Every act of self betrayal a person commits is chosen by his own self, and this choosing itself in no way validates an action a selfish.) 

The problem here is simply that the reality that he pretends to inhabit is not the reality that actually exists, and the person the actor pretends to be is not the person he really is, and and in both cases represents a complete departure from the real world and the entry into pure escapism. 

It may be worth mentioning also that these virtues are derived from the metaphysical and humanilogical nature of existence and and thus valid in all places, times, circumstances and for all people.  Dressing up in a costume and stepping in from of a movie camera changes nothing of this.  

"You might recall a television show called "Hawaii 5-0".  It was about police detectives in Hawaii.  The captain was played by Jack Lord.  He became so immersed in his character that it fused with his personality and he could no longer separate them.   By pretending to be this imaginary person, he created a schizophrenic state in his mind and reinforced it to the point where he could no longer control it.  His problem became so severe they cancelled the show.  This illustrates with an actual example that this is what actually happens when people engage in acting. 

If you still have any doubt that this is true, then test this theory on yourself.  Pretend to be your favorite character, James Bond or Captain Kirk, Wonder Woman or Princess Laia, and begin the process of pretension.  At first, assuming your mind is healthy, you will probably not observe much of an effect, but continue doing this and do not give up.  Imagine yourself in the situations these characters encounter, and actually say the things they would say and do the things they would do.  And keep it up.  You will start to feel your mind undergo a kind of softening, then your true identity and your grasp on reality slipping away.  Once you have continued long enough to notice this, then stop and return to the real world and reflect.  The two states of mind are clearly distinct.  The later is that defined by the principles of rational philosophy and places the self in control with rational awareness, and the other is purely escapist and completely contrary to it.  This should be enough to generate sufficient awareness for you to see the correctness of what I am asserting.  

I did not originally come to this conclusion by logic, but through experience.  I had been working on a screenplay, which was a sci-fi action adventure, and began wondering if I might be able to play a part in the movie, should it ever be made.  I have no training as an actor and I do not know if I would be any good, but I thought that perhaps I could at least find some minor role I could do.  So I starting thinking about acting and what was required.  I went through the above experiment and started to feel myself enter an almost dream-like state.  At first I did not think anything of it, but as I continued it got worse and I realized that something wasn't right, that a kind of mental deterioration was occurring, and that was when it suddenly struck me that you can't preserve your own identity and reality as a standard of truth and do this, and that acting was contradictory to rational philosophy.

This is why I can not see a person with Rand's capacity for philosophy and her supposed ultra-high level of rationality being unable to see that acting is evil.  If I could see this as quickly as I did, then she should have seen it too, and at least as fast.  Yet she did not and never did.  From this I can only conclude that she had a strong escapist element in her psychology, and this is why she so often just brushed plain and obvious realities aside and believed things which were completely illusory, such as thinking her husband had great psychological insights, etc. 


Post 99

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

1) It may be true that Rand contracted lung cancer from something other than cigarettes, however you offer no alternative explanation, and in absence of that knowing that she smoked for some three decades becomes the most logical explanation.  To offer an unknown cause refutes nothing.

If quality of life through smoking is in fact more important that the sheer weight of longevity to Rand, then after contracting lung cancer why did she stop? 

2)It is true that romantic partners may not be perfect matches for each other, however certain minimal conditions must be met before a romantic relationship is possible, such as common philosophical values, etc.  Rand made it quite clear that man must be the leader, and that the essence of femininity is hero worship for a man.  This condition thus stands, at least in Rand's mind, as necessary.

3)The argument that acting is immoral because of its fakery may be extended to other aspects of art is not correct, because moral considerations apply only to humans, and thus invalidates fakery only for them.  Your example of the sculptor fails because chiseling out a stature does not require the faking of reality, anymore than an inventor building his gadgets requires the faking of reality.  In both cases their actions merely express objects of their imaginations in physical form.  Using one's own self  for this purpose however requires the surrender of self and reason.    

4)I admit I don't like Leonard Peikoff, and as I have learned more about Rand I admit I have developed some disgust for her also, though lesser.  This in no way distorts my judgement.  Geniuses do not always seek out students to invest in, but if they should do so they must find people who are worth investing in.  Leonard Peikoff is not such a person.  His effect on the movement has been so destructive that he rivals Nathaniel Branden in the damage he has caused.  Investing in him is like buying stock in a company destined for bankruptcy.   

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 10/23, 11:26am)

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 10/23, 11:31am)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.