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Post 100

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Milenberg,

1) It may be true that Rand contracted lung cancer from something other than cigarettes, however you offer no alternative explanation, and in absence of that knowing that she smoked for some three decades becomes the most logical explanation.  To offer an unknown cause refutes nothing.

If quality of life through smoking is in fact more important that the sheer weight of longevity to Rand, then after contracting lung cancer why did she stop? 
On the view that smoking is a cancer-promoter.

2)It is true that romantic partners may not be perfect matches for each other, however certain minimal conditions must be met before a romantic relationship is possible, such as common philosophical values, etc.  Rand made it quite clear that man must be the leader, and that the essence of femininity is hero worship for a man. 
Okay, but then she was, by necessity, a follower (not leader) with regard to romance. Not being in the lead, she was forced -- by the nature of romance -- to be a chooser not a chaser. And, like you say, there had to be minimal conditions for her choice, such as common philosophic values. The burden then, falls upon you, to make it more clear or more known that Frank didn't share common philosophic values with Rand. Otherwise, you're just hand-waving.

3)The argument that acting is immoral because of its fakery may be extended to other aspects of art is not correct, because moral considerations apply only to humans, and thus invalidates fakery only for them.  Your example of the sculptor fails because chiseling out a stature does not require the faking of reality, anymore than an inventor building his gadgets requires the faking of reality.  In both cases their actions merely express objects of their imaginations in physical form.
I read about your personal experience with acting and how you found it revolting. I read the part about Jack Lord. I've heard about folks playing fantasy games like Dungeons & Dragons and finding themselves not being able to delineate themselves from their fictional characters. I even once had a personal dream that I was Spider-Man and I kicked some ass ... and it was fun.

What would you say to a Gary Cooper who, after playing Howard Roark, kept asking himself in his real life: "What would Roark do here?"

How could that be immoral?

4)I admit I don't like Leonard Peikoff, and as I have learned more about Rand I admit I have developed some disgust for her also, though lesser.  This in no way distorts my judgement.  Geniuses do not always seek out students to invest in, but if they should do so they must find people who are worth investing in.  Leonard Peikoff is not such a person.
You're not being a perfect perfectionist. A more perfect perfectionist would not demand such a 3rd-person view of perfection from humans. You are a 3rd person regarding the relation of Rand to Peikoff. Like a sports referee who was far from the play when it happened, there is trouble with being eager or willing to make these kinds of judgment calls. A more perfect perfectionist would take their own perspective into account, and not so readily call the play like you are doing.

Perhaps you can make a better case for this judgment-from-afar. Like a referee who says that, even though he was 50 yards away from a football tackle, that he was using binoculars at the time so that we can trust his judgment as if he were right there when the play went down. We can trust him to judge whether it was a touchdown or not, because his far-away perspective was transcended by some unusual means (like binoculars).

But you haven't done that yet.

Ed


Post 101

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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"The argument that acting is immoral because of its fakery may be extended to other aspects of art is not correct, because moral considerations apply only to humans, and thus invalidates fakery only for them."

Yes, we all know that humans neither write nor read fiction.

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Post 102

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, sometimes people have their heads so far up their behinds, that their ears are no longer visible. At that point there is no longer any reason to speak to them; they can only hear themselves.

Post 103

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

1)  Smoking is not a cancer promoter.  Cigarette smoke contains nicotine and some 60 other known carcinogens.  It is a known cause of cancer.  Nicotine, for example, works by complexing with a gene, I believe it is P53, and blocking its function, which is active in anti-cancer reactions. 

2)I do not think you being serious here, but just in case you are, that woman is supposed to look up to man does not relieve her of the responsibility of rational judgement or choice or in any way subjugate her.  She must use her mind to find a suitable mate, just as a man must.  Rand is responsible for her choice.  Now being the highly intelligent and mentally strong person she was it would be very difficult for her to find a suitable match.   To have someone she would have to accept the best match she could find so this may explain her choice in her husband.  It does not explain her attribution to him intellectual capacity he did not possess. 

3)I would say that it is perfectly legitimate to think such a thing, as long as he realized he was not Roark but himself.

4)I'm not judging Peikoff from afar.  I seen him in person at the Ford Hall Forum in Boston and read some of his writing.  I have more than enough evidence to make these judgements.   


Post 104

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Milenberg,

Cigarette smoke contains nicotine and some 60 other known carcinogens.  It is a known cause of cancer.  Nicotine, for example, works by complexing with a gene, I believe it is P53, and blocking its function, which is active in anti-cancer reactions.
Nicotine is exactly the kind of compound I was talking about -- it promotes cancer, but does not, itself, initiate cancer. Here is a basis for this position (in a peer-reviewed journal):
======================
Anticancer Agents Med Chem. 2007 Jul;7(4):461-6.

Nicotine, lung and cancer.

Translational Research B (Lung Cancer), Department of Integrated Medical Oncology (DOMI), National Cancer Institute, Largo Rosanna Benzi 10, Genoa, Italy. alessia.grozio@libero.it

 
It has been demonstrated that nicotine promotes the growth of solid tumors in vivo, suggesting that might induce the progression of tumors already initiated. While tobacco carcinogens can initiate and promote tumorigenesis, the exposure to nicotine could confer a proliferative advantage to early tumors but there is no evidence that nicotine itself provokes cancer.
======================

To have someone she would have to accept the best match she could find so this may explain her choice in her husband.  It does not explain her attribution to him intellectual capacity he did not possess.
Unfortunately, it looks like we'll just have to agree to have differences on this. You'll go on trusting in your ability to judge the intimate affairs of others, and I'll continue to be unconvinced that you are such an epistemologically powerful creature.

3)I would say that it is perfectly legitimate to think such a thing, as long as he realized he was not Roark but himself.
Then that means that not all acting is bad -- and that Gary Cooper's role as Roark is a particular counter-example to your general rule.

4)I'm not judging Peikoff from afar.  I seen him in person at the Ford Hall Forum in Boston and read some of his writing.  I have more than enough evidence to make these judgements.  
Like GW Bush, Peikoff has seemed to me to be a pretty likable guy -- except for the folks behind the scenes pulling his strings. For example, I once heard a podcast interview of Peikoff with, I believe, Yaron Brook, about Objectivist websites. Peikoff's answers were reasonable, but Yaron Brook kept twisting the questions -- trying to lead Peikoff with questions like a shyster lawyer would -- trying to make it come out like Objectivist websites were an evil to be stopped (i.e., that only ARI should get to have an Objectivist website).

It was neat to hear Peikoff expending effort to be careful with his words -- and to be reasonable. It helped me to have some respect for him.

Ed


Post 105

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, those statistics are damn lies, almost as bad as Cooper & Neal.



Post 106

Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

If you liked those stats (which make "nicotine" relatively safe, even if addictive) ... then you're going to love this one:

Smokeless tobacco doesn't even double your risk of cancer ...

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BMC Public Health. 2007 Nov 15;7:334.

Meta-analysis of the relation between European and American smokeless tobacco and oral cancer.

PMI Research & Development, Philip Morris Products S,A,, Neuchâtel, Switzerland. Rolf.Weitkunat@pmintl.com

METHODS: Following literature review a meta-analysis was conducted of 32 epidemiological studies published between 1920 and 2005 including tests for homogeneity and publication bias.

RESULTS: Based on 38 heterogeneous study-specific estimates of the odds ratio or relative risk for smokeless tobacco use, the random-effects estimate was 1.87 (95% confidence interval 1.40-2.48). The increase was mainly evident in studies conducted before 1980. No increase was seen in studies in Scandinavia. Restricting attention to the seven estimates adjusted for smoking and alcohol eliminated both heterogeneity and excess risk (1.02; 0.82-1.28). Estimates also varied by sex (higher in females) and by study design (higher in case-control studies with hospital controls) but more clearly in studies where estimates were unadjusted, even for age. The pattern of estimates suggests some publication bias. Based on limited data specific to never smokers, the random-effects estimate was 1.94 (0.88-4.28), the eight individual estimates being heterogeneous and based on few exposed cases.

CONCLUSION: Smokeless tobacco, as used in America or Europe, carries at most a minor increased risk of oral cancer. However, elevated risks in specific populations or from specific products cannot definitely be excluded.
========================

I can see you getting all huffy and puffy: "But ... but ... but that study was funded by Philip Morris in Switzerland!" That argument doesn't hold water, though -- because of the type of study this is. Systematic reviews are done with the express purpose to systematically review all of the published evidence. They're not done to answer a narrow question, or to offer a narrow interpretation of published literature.

Ed


Post 107

Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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An O'ist addresses the finite yet unbounded universe:

The Integration of "Finite" and "Unbounded"


Post 108

Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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It is interesting that no one mentioned that the idea of acting as immoral is as old as Plato - and for the same reason, that it is considered as fraud, lying and the like...

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