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Post 40

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I said,
I don't see how a "potential" that is in the baby can compel a mother to give up rights she had before birth.
And you replied,
I can see how this potential 'compels' a human being. I can see how it is that mothers routinely -- almost universally -- take care of their offspring. I can see them valuing that. I have seen mothers who'd willfully die for the potential life and growth that their children might have.
The fact that mothers routinely take care of their offspring has nothing at all to do with determining the baby's positive rights.  If you could show that no mother ever had or ever would neglect their child then we could quit the discussion as moot.  But that isn't the case.  The government has no right to make laws to put mothers in jail for neglect unless they violated someones right.

So, if the baby has a right to be fed, which we both believe is the case, where did that right come from?

In an earlier post - #31 - you said,
Infants have rights due to their potentiality (rather than due to any actualized rationality on their part).
   And then you said,
Babies have philosophically-justifiable rights due to their human potential.
You wouldn't mean "potential" as in "potential human being" because it already is that.  And "potential" as in "potentially rational" also isn't the case.  Because a baby is a rational being - they are learning the fundamentals and making choices.  They just haven't learned enough or have enough skills to be independent.  So I guess you are mean "potential" as in "potentially able to care for himself."  (Let me know if I got this wrong.)

The fact that a person can't do something now, but will be able to do it later, doesn't give them a right to have something forced from an other person until then.

If I'm going to college and will graduate with a degree that pays $75,000/yr and I'm only making $50,000/yr does my potential future earning give me the right to demand that $25,000/yr difference from someone?  If we had a valid contract of some kind, yes.  If I just claim that I have a potential it does not give me any such right. 

Do you see why I don't understand how "potential" can create a positive right out of thin air?


Post 41

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 11:54pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

But if we don't do posit some kind right then their is no moral claim on the mother's actions.
But I don't think we need to go so far as to posit such a thing as positive rights -- at least not the very same positive rights that loonie lefties posit regarding adults. You see, a positive right, if posited, is actually a moral claim on everyone (for everyone). It's a very tarnished term, actually (and for good reason).

Conventionally, if someone had had a positive right to something (like to a high-paying job, or to a house -- for instance), then we'd each and all be morally obligated to provide it for them -- though, in practice, there's always been a central power delegating these obligations to the sacrificial victims of their choice.

But this isn't true for moms (or dads). A mom (or dad) can't claim that their child is everyone's responsibility (as would be true if the child had had positive rights). What I'm saying is that there is an inherent (inescapable) injustice to the jaundiced notion of positive rights. That they are wrong on principle (and cannot be made "right" via juxtaposition of some details or dynamics).

Since she has no responsibility to feed someone else's baby, then why would she be obligated to feed her own?  We can't just say, "because it is her's or because she had it." - we have to explain. 
Alright. I get that. I do have a suspicion, however, that the answer to this conundrum is scientific (rather than philosophical). That an appeal to biology will be what it is that ultimately justifies this 'responsibility' or 'obligation.' It's just a suspicion at the moment, and I'd drop the notion like a hot potato, if shown otherwise.

How, do we morally compel that woman to feed her baby or by what right do we punish her if she doesn't?
My admittedly-smug answer to this is my standard answer to all moral questions: Morality is about happiness. If you want happiness (and everyone does), then you must do the things that I tell you to do (because I'm in a position of understanding of what it is that is required for the attainment and maintainment of human happiness).

;-)

It just so happens that women who don't feed their babies are notoriously less happy than those that do. And this fact is proof -- not merely an assertion -- that feeding babies is the morally superior choice. In other words, I don't think it is as important as you seem to make it -- that the right answer here is rationally-promulgated and supported by a syllogism with abstract premises (and this is where I'd say science takes over for philosophy in explaining what's right for humans to do).

Steve, you make a good (even if only hypothetical) case about the apparent lack of rational justification for punishing neglectful mothers (or fathers). My suspicion is that you're reifying babies as if they are 'little adults' -- in which case it would then be difficult if not impossible to punish the mothers justly. What I'm trying to get at is that a mere and simple biological switch of context (rather than a philosophical addition of something like 'positive rights') might be all that is needed to answer this conundrum.

If we treat babies as little adults, then it seems impossible (without positing positive rights) to punish neglectful mothers (or fathers) -- but we're not scientifically-justified in treating babies as little adults. Babies, as a subclass of humans, require a conceptual distinction -- in order to avoid certain contradictions. I admit that I don't have all the answers yet, but have I made my concerns more clear?

The ultimate answer may still be philosophical (and, in that case, I'd only mistaken it for being a scientific one), but I think I've shown that it's not rational to treat babies as "small" adults.

Ed



Post 42

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Part of the disagreement may be about the term "positive rights" - I have not been using the term as specifically as you have.  I have been told that the word positive only means that a person is compelled to take an action inorder to fulfill that right.  It might be taxpayers giving to the government who gives to a welfare recipient.  In that case we would agree that "positive right" was not moral and not really a right.  But other cases are contracts where a person voluntary agrees to make a payment, say each month, for a period of time.  The "positive right" to receive that payment is one you and I would agree is right and moral.

I was told that positive and negative refer to actions coming at the right holder.  Negative means I only expect not to have acts against me.  Positive means I expect to get something from someone else by right.

I'm not wedded to the term "positive rights" and we can go back and reconstitute the argument without it.  What we do have to do is posit some kind of right that a baby would possess that adults don't and it would be such that it compels the mother to support the baby.  I believe that there is some kind of right just as I described.  We both do.  But we don't have adequate language or concepts that describe this right.

Yes, we could say that the woman who fails to take responsibility for her child will be immoral for doing so.  We agree on that.  But it doesn't get to the point.  People are allowed to do things that that are immoral but only where they don't violate anothers rights.  Again, what is the source of a right that the baby has that lets up put mom in jail for neglect? 

About me treating babys as small adults... could you say more about that?  I'm not following you.  Maybe quote something I said that give an example of how I would have said if I weren't do that?  Thanks.


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Post 43

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 12:36amSanction this postReply
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MSK, you're speaking gibberish again. It's revolting to witness you trying to make sense. What a perversion of reason! For instance, definitions are not arguments. You need definitions to keep your ideas clear and communicate them well. But when you state your conclusion as part of the definition, you're playing word games. And that's all you've done.

I shouldn't have to point out that these same stupid semantic games are how anti-abortion activists try to justify their own views. We shouldn't kill human beings! What's the definition of a human being? That's not an argument. That's an attempt at equivocation.

But instead of recognizing that my criticism is about trying to "define" reality by arbitrary assertion, you jump to the idiotic view that I'm against definitions. Every time you speak, you inform the world that you're not worth listening to.
Michael, this may seem like a harsh criticism, but Joe has a point. Quite honestly, when I read your reply, I rolled my eyes and threw up my hands. You use a lot of Objectivist catch phrases, but without any real understanding of what they mean. Just because a baby is a human being does not mean that it is rational. Nor does defining a baby as a 'rational animal' make it so. A baby does not have the ability to reason any more than does an infant primate, only the capacity for developing that ability, which is why we don't accord babies (or children) the same rights as adults.

You need to show why babies have rights but lower animals do not, even though the latter have a higher level of cognitive development than a baby at that stage of its life. Defining a baby as a 'rational animal,' because it will eventually develop that capacity, is not enough to make the argument. A human fetus will eventually develop the capacity for reason too, but you wouldn't accord rights to a fetus.

Joe is correct. You have to show how according rights to a newborn is in one's self-interest. My argument has always been that according rights to human beings with the capacity for reason is in one's self-interest, if one desires that they adopt the same principle with respect to oneself. But a baby does not possess the capacity for principled behavior. On what grounds, then, do you respect its "rights"?

I have argued that you must at the very least set the standard for rights at an age when children acquire the capacity for reason -- the capacity for principled behavior -- but when exactly is that? There is always a risk of setting it too late for some children, besides which an arbitrary age is not a standard that is subject to easy recognition. How easy is it to tell whether or not a child has reached that age? In order to avoid these kinds of difficulties, It is best to set a standard that is easily recognizable and has plenty of room for error. The "bright line of birth" fits that criterion to a T. Accordingly, a human offspring should acquire legal rights at the moment of birth.

You don't have to agree with this argument, but you do have to make an argument. An arbitrary definition is not enough.

- Bill


(Edited by William Dwyer
on 4/17, 12:39am)


Post 44

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 4:34amSanction this postReply
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Ok - I'll play devil's advocate and throw in something here, namely that, from a biological stance, a newborn infant is - when compared to other primates - born prematurally.... that is, the reason it is born when it is, after the nine months, is that it is the earliest a still-developing being has viability from a natural standpoint....   that's right - still-developing, for to be on comparableness, there is another nine months before it would biologically be equated with the same development as other primates when they are born.....  and the reason for it being born when it is, is because the head size demands it - it wouldn't be able to pass thru the hip bones if left in longer..... now - does this add any new dimension to this discussion?

Post 45

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Do you see why I don't understand how "potential" can create a positive right out of thin air?
I'm definitely hung-up on the term: "positive rights." I see what you mean about contracts leading to them, though (where folks become obliged -- through mutual consent -- to take positive actions to or for others). You know, I'd have less issue with a special and perhaps more "biologically-non-contradicting" notion, of say: "baby rights." Babies are a unique instantiation of human beings (a special sub-group).

"Baby rights" would be a concept that integrates the biological life-stage of the human in question (and also specifically implicate the parents, or even others, who had worked to bring the child into the world). When I say "others," I'm thinking of the crazy situation of where a fundamentalist religion-monger masqueraded as an abortion doctor -- only to perform "mock" abortions.

It's admittedly far-fetched -- I'll be the first to say it -- but it does put a huge dent your idea of positive rights (the obligations of which always being held over the mother's head). Other and less far-fetched scenarios might include Catholic (or another religion) daughters being forced to conceive against their will, and then forced to provide those positive rights for the next 18 years of their lives.

So, just as we have different treatments for toddlers that murder (as when young siblings were playing with daddy's shotgun), than we do if adults -- often drunk or high -- also accidentally kill a friend or sibling; so, too, we should think about human rights in 2 different ways (not applying "baby rights" to adult humans -- but applying them to baby humans; because babies are biologically "different").

This last paragraph is supposed to shed light on the idea of treating babies like 'little adults' (merely because they're of the same species as adult humans -- and even though they are so biologically "different").

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/17, 7:54pm)


Post 46

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Rev's right about the unique prematurity of baby humans. Even a larva-like baby kangaroo (a "joey") climbs, immediately, a height equalling probably 10 or more flights or stories for us humans! No human newborn even translocates.

I don't know about the relevant implications of that, though. Interesting, nonetheless.

Ed


Post 47

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Here is the problem with the "baby rights" - we can't choose one explanation over another because we feel more comfortable with it.  We need to have one with an objective moral source. 

These rights have objective moral sources:
  • Individual rights can be shown to arise from man's life.  (If a man has the right to live, then he has the moral right to be free of force that would stop life) 
  • Contractural arrangements can generate obligations such that person A can have a moral right to expect person B to perform. 
  • Property rights can arise out of man's life (If a man's nature requires that he produce then he has the right to the product of his effort.)

Anything other than those, and we need to show the source.  If we can't establish a source that make it a moral right, then it is an arbitrary social construct and not an objective right.  It may be possible to derive some kind of biological/developmental moral right but I'm drawing a blank on it right now.  And the contractual model looks like it works.

That difference is extremely important, since locking up a mother who neglects her child is a violation of her moral right to do what she wants, unless there is a moral obligation of support.

We need to either work out if a contractual arrangement exists, or if we can derive a biological explanation that will obligate Mom morally, or, something else.


Post 48

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Let's try this another way.

We both believe that babies should be fed (and sheltered, and nurtured, etc). Our problems -- in coming to an abrupt understanding of one another -- likely stem from our answers to the following questions ...

1) fed by whom?
2) why?

Do you agree that our own answers to these 2 questions are, completely, what it is that is preventing an abrupt understanding of each other's position on this matter?

Ed


Post 49

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Do I think that our answers to those two questions are the problem with our agreeing?  um.... not really.

Let's see.  Here are my answers.

Fed by whom?  --  Parent(s)
Why? --  Baby has a moral right to be supported by the parent(s)

I must be missing what your are getting at...

Steve


Post 50

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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Steve, here are my answers ...

Fed by whom?  --  Whoever's responsible for the birthing (note that a woman need do nothing; that she need take no positive action -- after impregnation -- for a birthing to occur)

Why? --  Baby has -- in virtue of being born an 'underdeveloped' human -- a moral right to be supported, for awhile, by whoever's responsible for the birthing (that or those persons who -- by their actions, intimidation, or fraud -- "caused" a birthing of a human being to occur)

My answer relates to the situations -- such as when a religion-mongering parent prevents a daughter's choice of abortion -- which I had presented earlier. If my stipulations aren't met, then religion will have some power of womens' lives -- and that is a bad thing. And it's imperative to prevent bad things.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/18, 7:20am)


Post 51

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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What?!! "A woman need to do nothing" and "need take no positive action" for a birthing to occur??!!!  Unbelievable. I am speechless. 


Post 52

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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What?!! "A woman need to do nothing" and "need take no positive action" for a birthing to occur??!!!  Unbelievable. I am speechless. 

As soon as read the previous, I KNEW someone was going to say this.......

Post 53

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I'm sorry, but you are way off in left field.  Look at these examples of your theory: 
  • If she has the baby at home with no help then no one is morally responsible and it is okay to let the baby die of neglect. 
  • If she has the baby in a taxi-cab on the way to the hospital, the taxi driver is morally responsible for the next 18 years, if he helps.
  • But mostly, your arrangement has the GYN/OB guy on the hook for 18 years.
Again, sorry to keep trumpeting the same note, but this is why a contractual arrangement is needed.  And it is a good thing because parents will be more careful about being parents if their moral responsibilities are more clearly defined as theirs.  And no doctor and anyone else in their right mind would help with the birthing if it meant be sentenced to 18 years of support. 

I figure you must of meant something entirely or your coffee hadn't yet kicked in when you wrote that.  :-)

Steve


Post 54

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Hong,

What?!! "A woman need to do nothing" and "need take no positive action" for a birthing to occur??!!!  Unbelievable. I am speechless. 
If what I said isn't true, then Hong, why don't you tell about me that 'alternative thing' that will happen when a woman does nothing after impregnation? I'd be curious to see if you can answer that.


Steve,

I'm sorry, but you are way off in left field.  Look at these examples of your theory: 
Now we're even. You have some horrific examples of what might happen if my theory on this were accepted -- and I provided horrific examples of what might happen if your theory on this were accepted.

What ought we do about these competing horrors? This recent posting to RoR shows that the horrors which I mentioned aren't only possible, but now are even likely to occur.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/18, 9:45am)


Post 55

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Apparently we are unable to take our agreement any further. 

We both agree that there is some kind of moral obligation for someone to support the child, and we agree that it arises somehow out of the birth of the child, but we disagree on source of the right and who is obligated. 

And we don't appear to get beyond this point.

You mentioned "horrific examples if [my] theory were accepted" - I'm not finding those in your post unless you it is where you talk about,  
Catholic (or another religion) daughters being forced to conceive against their will, and then forced to provide those positive rights for the next 18 years of their lives. 
But a contractual rights theory prevents that.  You can't establish a valid contract by force.  If the daughter were forced to concieve or if force were used to keep her from aborting then there is no consent.  

In those cases where the mother didn't consent because of force, I'd say the government would act on behalf of the child to assign the moral responsiblity to those who used the force. 

Where there is no force, but a woman wants to transfer her obligations to a third party (an adoption) and they are willing to accept them, that is also no problem with a contract approach.


Post 56

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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Conceptually I've divided rights into different parts.

The first and universal kind of rights are moral rights. Moral rights are the consequence of having the ability to conceive them in a non-contradictory fashion such as the right to be left alone, the right to be free to act [provided you leave others alone to do theirs freely], and so on. These come from the basic premise that you are your own life so no other can claim it, and you are the only one responsible to it for its sustainment and the consequences of the actions derived from it. These kinds of rights, as I stated earlier, are universal by virtue that anyone can conceive them without special theories to derive them, they are based on root axioms such as existence, identity, and non-contradiction.

The second kind of rights are legal rights, or rights derived from contract such the "right of way", which does not in itself require moral rights to exist yet is indeed based on a similar function of them, being non-contradictory and can be derived from axioms [but not necessarily so]. Such rights can only exist by virtue that they do not conflict with moral rights and their root axioms, thus they can be conceived of as contingent rights as well, being that they are not necessary in themselves, but they do offer a benefit from those who construct them as part of their contract, allowing for safe transaction of wealth in exchange for wealth of other goods or services and other similar procedural engagements.

Other kinds of rights exist, but can be considered arbitrary such as the "right to work" or "right to education", which require a violation of moral rights, thus in themselves are not valid by virtue of the stipulation set for legal rights. One can't have the right to work if it means stealing from the employers or other employees to make that work possible. No one can have a right to an education if it means stealing from the teachers or other students to make that education possible. Or to steal from anyone for any reason to provide for such so-called rights.

As this applies to children, their reach on rights are based more or less on the principle that if we consider the alternative of either respecting no rights for them [or not gifting them] then it follows that no rights can be respected for other humans, thus the system of rights, moral and legal, would collapse since it implies that these rights have no use to us or to children. Rights in this regard are tools to utilize human actions related to survival. They improve life, not hinder it. And they improve the means to develop complex social engagements by which legal rights are possible, and complex economies can form. In essence, I'm proposing that without rights, the alternative is death and decay, thus why rights, although not inherent, are necessary for human survival, just as our knowledge of medicine may not be inherent, but it is equally essential to human survival, and so on.

Then when considering the fact that children born into the world depend on their parents to care for them, it is not an obligation that parents care for their young, but rather they knowingly conceive them, thus are responsible to their care just as I am responsible to the care of my property that I make or purchase by the same reasoning in that I 'conceived' it by my labor of a different kind. When you give your child up to another person, you are giving up that part of your labor that produced the child as well, to another, even though the child itself is not property, but none the less there is a kind of property made at the child's conception, a stewardship 'deed' as it were.


-- Brede
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 4/18, 12:18pm)


Post 57

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
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What?!! "A woman need to do nothing" and "need take no positive action" for a birthing to occur??!!!  Unbelievable. I am speechless. 
Ed don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' no babies. 


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Post 58

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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... but we disagree on source of the right and who is obligated. 
Maybe, but -- because I think you're not just thoughtful, but wise -- let me try one more time with these 2 ...

source of the right -- In being born a baby human

who is obligated -- Whoever is most responsible for bringing the unsuspecting rugrat into this world

But a contractual rights theory prevents that.  You can't establish a valid contract by force.  If the daughter were forced to concieve or if force were used to keep her from aborting then there is no consent.  

In those cases where the mother didn't consent because of force, I'd say the government would act on behalf of the child to assign the moral responsiblity to those who used the force. 

Where there is no force, but a woman wants to transfer her obligations to a third party (an adoption) and they are willing to accept them, that is also no problem with a contract approach.
I do agree that the contractual rights theory of child rearing (the CRTCR, for short) prevents that. Your middle sentence, by the way, would be something that I'd say -- in defense of my very own theory on the matter, shortened up as the ...

BaBaB-tnG-DBtAasthDRAHhaRtAtiARfHtE theory

[babies are born as biologically-, though not genetically-different beings than adults are, so they have different rights, because they have to have different rights, all humans have a right to anything and everything which happens to be absolutely required for humanity to exist]

;-)

I don't know, Steve. Maybe, sooner or later, one of us will allow himself to be persuaded by the other. I did enjoy arguing with you though, you have a wonderful sense of respect for the minds and the "hearts" of others. It was my pleasure.

Ed


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Post 59

Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Ed.  It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with someone as civil and good-natured as you have been.

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