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Post 40

Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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The implications of finding any even crude precursor of life on Mars as part of the current tentative expeditions are enormous, as it relates to the Fermi Paradox.

If we look at a planet just next door, and find fossil evidence of life, then life is not just abundant, but statistically virtually everywhere in this Universe that is still 75% Hydrogen.

Fermi's Paradox is driven not just by the vastness of space and the countless opportunities, but by competing narrow windows of opportunity; we have been technologically aware at some level of awareness for only a very brief moment, a few cosmic blinks, and our looking must overlap another civilization's being. Even assuming we were unblinking and complete in our gazing into the universe, we have been looking for only a moment. If there was not a great 'filter' at work, we might expect the near galaxies to be as busy as technological Time Squares, instead of deserted, and yet to our eyes, they appear to be deserted.

We can imagine other civilizations, and we can well imagine what great filter might weed them -- and us -- out. Others have called this 'surviving our technological adolescence.'

Evidence is, that gradients drive everything in our universe. That has certainly been the case in mankinds sparse 2D surface growth paradigm, it would certainly be the case in any sparse 3D volume growth paradigm.

There is an inherent universal law at work, a geometric 'pi' at work; we experienced it during our 2D surface growth phase, and any civilization that transitioned to a 3D volume growth phase would experience it too, but at a different geometric rate. It goes as follows:

In a sparse 2D surface growth paradigm, domain, and thus, resources, even if sparsely and in fits, grows as technological range squared, whereas border only grows as technological range. Therefore, domain grows faster than border. This is a built in pressure for growth paradigms to 'grow,' and in a universe which demonstrates that 'gradients drive everything', that is a significant pressurs.

In a sparse 3D volume growth paradigm, domain,even if sparsely, would grow as technological range cubed, and border as range squared.

If a 'local' civilization survives its technological adolescence, and makes the 2D to 3D growth paradigm jump, then it will locally expand, and eventually will dominate its local domain. Two such expanding growth paradigms would collide and either accommodate, absorb, or dominate.

Whether we did the same would be immaterial, and moot, if we do not survive our technological adolescence. We could choose to loudly announce ourselves, to proclaim 'here we are,' to be the first local Neon sign in our local TimeSquare noisy galaxy. We could look at our own 2D surface experience, and conclude 'of what good would it have done the Incas to not have sought out the Spaniards? The Spaniards eventually came."

Well, maybe the 'eventually' is the key. Would the Spaniards have arrived much sooner if the Incas were effectively able to broadcast "here we are?"

So, ... is cosmic stealth a survival tactic in a galactic sea, driven as it is by gradient and the inevitable logic of 3D volume growth paradigms?

Is there evidence of such behavior in our own oceans?

Should we expect predatory behavior in the universe, or only in our own oceans?

I don't know. Do you?

reguarda,
Frediano



Post 41

Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Robert said, "and nitpicking on the term 'create' is very concrete-bounded in mindset - as per the fact most everyone uses the term create as if imbued from intelligence... period."

What a mess I created... Hell, I was just inquiring as to what the rules or reasoning was - I had no idea that made me concrete-bound. So, tell me, Robert, if I just accept the way almost everyone else uses terms then I won't be concrete-bound? Or is it too late - am I forever denied the soaring heights of abstraction?

Post 42

Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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So sorry - wasn't meaning particularly to be picking on you, Steve - thought as couple others making similar view of the term... is true, tho, in common usage, it refers to an agent doing this - as per in most cases religion... however, as
Rand pointed out in The Metaphysical and the Man-made, it can only properly refer to humans, as any other is mystical [ and this is in context to what is known, namely we humans are the only conceptualizing beings known to exist]...

Post 43

Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for reply, Robert.

I like the distinction and Rand has made a point of using words as they should be (e.g., selfishness, capitalism) - but I don't see how one could argue this other than claiming common usage, which is a weak argument, or that there should be a word with this meaning, which is like pleading. Well, I have no arguments against that usage so I'll just mend my ways correct my usage as needed.

Post 44

Monday, December 29, 2008 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
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I have been reading this guy recently, and he has an interesting take on this:

http://predictionboy.blogspot.com/2008/12/so-where-are-all-aliens.html


Post 45

Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Sidereal thought - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081224215542.htm

Post 46

Monday, December 29, 2008 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt:

I enjoyed reading predictionboy's blog, but take exception to the assumption that 'sustainability' -- or any single paradigm -- would uniquely define mature technological species.

It's a little like saying, the concept of 'predator' would not long survive, whereas sharks do just fine long term in the local example we can study. In the example of our oceans, there are species that are predator, there are species that are prey, there are species that are both.

If there are species that are screaming out 'here I am', then they had better have some inherent attribute that permit them to survive in an ocean that also includes predators.

The same might be true for the stars. 'Stay at home sustainability' may be one of many mature paradigms. So may stealth based growth. Wishful Incan thinking about the nature of our someday Spaniards may not be of much help to us. I think it borders on wishful thinking , if notmysticism, to believe that there is one set of rules that results in a diverse spectrum of life in our oceans, and another set of rules that would result in a narrow spectrum of uniformly motivated technologically mature life among the stars.

We also have a technologically adolescent belief that electromagnetic/radio waves are the preferred means of communication for tchnologically advanced civilizations. It is just as likely that EMR is an incremental step along the way to more efficient means of communication, soon enough regarded as quaint as signal fires. (If we'd been looking for evidence of signal fires, we may have already concluded long ago that the stars were signs of life...)

EMR may in fact just be a brief signature of merging civilization, not a lasting signature, and that has been the primary medium weve been incompletely and barely searching.

regards,
Frediano

Post 47

Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

Interesting blog. I'm inclined to agree that the number of "advanced" technological civilizations out there might be fewer than we could imagine, but, of course, it is a big universe, and we really don't have enough empirical data on its make-up. We rely entirely on the laws of chance to surmise that there "should be" other intelligent civilizations. And that is, honestly, okay - a reasonable assumption.

His thoughts on sustainability and stay at home civilizations, I think, are less reasonable. Technology advances furthest in those areas where you direct it, and it is directed, usually, at solving special problems. Even though there will always be spill over between industries, the industries the technology was specifically developed for, will usually be the recipient of the most benefits. The majority of our "space age" technologies were developed because of the special communications, packaging, and transport requirements for working off planet. Ocean research might have brought some of these technologies to light, but it is likely that many of the things discovered in the space program would not have been found if the focus was instead on farming or mining. Civilizations looking inward for sustainability would not advance in the same way, perhaps not as far, and certainly not as fast in areas such as long range communications. Plus, I think the natural inclination of most civilizations is to spread out. Everyone starts somewhere, and they grow into tribes, communities, cities, states, etc. Expansion is always the first thing any civilization would learn, usually because in the beginning there is always more land to expand. Expansion off world is a natural thought, whether technologically attainable or not. Conservation and sustainability are 'second thoughts' most civilizations would probably come around to, but the idea of expansion is likely hard to forget. Besides which, depending upon how crowded their stellar neighborhood, such advanced civilizations would sooner or later realize that if they don't have a sure-fire meteor defense system, someday all they've done could still come to a loss. Any culture intending to survive, eventually has to hedge their bets off world.

jt

Post 48

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
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Hey guys, what's up. Good commentary here, cool board, appreciate the interest.

From the perspectives being shared here, there's several opportunities for me to be clearer in my blog:
1. I definitely need to describe in more clarity and depth what I mean by the 'technology of sustainability'. That deserves its own blog entry, maybe more than one. But in a nutshell, really what I'm suggesting with this terminology is that we will get smart enough in the next 50 years or so (hopefully less), about the time our population levels off on this planet, to essentially develop the technologies and perhaps more importantly the land and other resource utilization policies to allow the projected population of 8-10 billion to live comfortably on this planet into the foreseeable future - ie, sustainably. There are countless dimensions to sustainability, it's not one thing, really it's everything - recycling, energy use, land management policies, conservation techniques, etc. Now, it may seem that we're spinning our wheels on one or more of these areas, but actually our knowledge along all these fronts has increased tremendously in just the past few decades, and all signs point to even more rapid progress in the future. And the most cogent point, perhaps, is that with the right technologies and policies in place, this planet need not be overburdened with our presence, even at 8-10 billion people.

2. I am absolutely not suggesting a stark choice between sustainability and space exploration, manned or otherwise. I'm a huge space buff, and strongly support continued investment in space exploration. All I'm saying is that by the time the technology is in place for us to economically move millions (or billions?) of people into space, whether the Moon, Mars, Alpha Centauri, wherever, we will by that time have already of necessity mastered the technologies and policies to make the human population on Earth sustainable - able to feed, clothe, shelter, and entertain ourselves into the distant future, without turning the Earth into a smoking ruin. Now, sadly, many species and environments will be compromised between then and now, but life is resilient, and once we reach a certain point, probably around the time our population reaches its maximum around 2050 or so (that's a guesstimate, it will vary widely from region to region, but we'll all get there eventually, I believe), humanity and the rest of Earth's remaining biota should be able to more or less happily coexist.

3. The thoughts around an asteroid strike are well taken. Preventing an asteroid strike I suggest is a special kind of sustainability technology (or preservation technology, if you prefer). I believe that even that problem will be solved before we can economically move and maintain millions of people in space. In any case, watching the Earth incinerated by an asteroid from the comfort of a space station would provide little solace to its passengers - the universe would seem lonely indeed if such an event were to transpire, even if you had a million people on a space station to keep you company.

4. There will be an option here, in the far future - you can leave Earth if you want to pursue a life, career opportunity, adventure, whatever, in space. But, it will be not be a necessity to leave Earth, that's one of my fundamental points. If it becomes a necessity, we have failed as a species, it could be argued. And bottom line, what I'm suggesting is that given the choice, most people will choose to stay home. Short visits, space tourism, things like that, sure - but relatively few will choose to leave Earth forever, which traveling to even the nearest star would probably entail. And with advanced visualization technologies, we'll be able to have our cake and eat it too, so to speak, bringing those distant locales explored by probes or what-not to us in exceedingly realistic detail - without giving up everything we know and everyone we love to do so.

5. Comparing an alien civilization to the Spanish and us to the Inca I'm not sure is very instructive, although it's certainly thought provoking. Taking my nominal, ballpark value of an alien civilization being at least 10 million years older than us, if they wanted to be here, they would be here. If they wanted to overtly contact us, we would hear them. If they wanted to rule us, there would be no contest, no struggle, no 'war', not as we know it. A civilization that old could have expanded to every nook and cranny of even this vast galaxy, 100,000 light-years across, even if they couldn't break the light barrier. But, they're not here, at least there's no objective evidence that they're here. And the reason almost certainly is not multiverses, or whatever - it's motivation, their motivation primarily, they hold the cards. My ideas around their taking advantage of a splendid observational opportunity of a species in technological transition (ie, us) is conjecture, but whatever the reason for their withholding contact, it's in their heads, it's because it's what they want to do. But I am by no means ruling out that we may be alone, at least in this galaxy, it's not improbable.

- PB

Post 49

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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Too many unknowns for us to really do more than speculate.  I think that rather than sustainability, which I believe is rather a non-issue, it may simply be the fact we observe about richer people having fewer children.  In other words, the richer and more advanced we become, the less interest there is in having more people and children, so our population does not expand, perhaps even contracts, and there is little interest in the vast resources and effort needed to go to another sub-optimal planet.

Hence, the likelihood is the universe is primarily explored by robotic AIs and the people stay at home (for the most part).


Post 50

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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And before we can explore the universe in person, we need explore the 'high frontier', the space habitats, where sustainability is not a canard, as it is here on earth...

Post 51

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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Our interest in the long term stability of technological life in the universe is pretty obvious, and also pretty conflicted:

Is there any sign that technologically advanced life survives its ability to destroy itself? Or, is that the 'great filter' that keeps the stars relatively clear and dark and quiet?

Conflicted because, it is good news/bad news, either way. I'm not saying that other civilizations are all Spaniards to us as Incas. I'm saying, if we detect other technological life, then technological life is probably diverse enough to include the odd Spaniards, and stay at home Inca sustainability, although a survival tactic, may not ultimately matter. What we do know about technological time is that it moves ahead at an increasingly non-linear rate, and rapidly advances from Kitty Hawk to the Moon...(and then stalls while politicians run a CronyFest on the Potomac...)

The topology od space may not lend itself well to the kind of material growth paradigm typical of our past 5000 yrs of 2D surface experience. OTOH, even at our level of technology, it is easy to imagine no need to materially transport ourselves in order to extend our information domain. We are at the Kitty Hawk stages of material manipulation at the atomic scale. (Remember 'IBM' -- what, 20 years ago?) We are witnessing a transformation with the concept of the internet, in that intellectual content moves from Point A to Point B. Run those ahead 50 years, and then sell your UPS and FEDEX stock, because they will become local delivery services. We already see this with solid simple prototypes-- transmit intellectual content from point a to point b, 'replicate' physical object at point B first imagined and/or sensed at point A. Better sensors, better replicators, lather, rinse, repeat. 'Domain' grows as technological range-cubed, 'border' grows as technological range squared, and distance to the frontier grows only as technological range. A natural geometric based pressure to 'grow domain', a pressure to expand. Information/knowledge acquired at any point inside that volume sharable with any other point within that volume, based on technological range and propagation latency.

If we naked sweaty apes can imagine that with our technology, then in a hundred years, we will have imagined far more.

Gradient is what drives everything in our universe, including life. I can think of no exception. Even what we call 'sustainability', sometimes, 'homeostasis', is not really lack of gradient, it is more closely a locally managed offset/balance of competing gradients. Lack of all gradient is 'stasis', or what the Universe calls 'death.' What may or may not be our Universes inevitable end point, that imagined 3 deg K dim future, uniform, gradient-less. Until then, what a ride, and for all we know, obviated by some next 'reset' event.

So, until then, is it a race, at most, to dominate a single galaxy, and the stage of our local expansion is such that the race is early on?

Are there no examples of technological life that has survived its technological adolescence, and are we pushing adulthood? IE, have not yet reached 'the filter.' So, we are not alone, but we are one of many examples of local 'flare ups' of technology that barely survive a cosmic blink. One blip of many in a Universe filled with cosmic blips. Fortunately, there is something about life, about human life, that forces us to believe otherwise, else we'd never get out of bed in the morning. It may be true, 'we' may not live forever, but we can at least die valiantly in the attempt.

Or, are we in fact, the one and only? This last possibility seems to me to be the most unbelievable of all, a matter so far of pure faith, either way. Ironically, the evidence at hand is all in the laps of those with conventional faith, that we are the one and only...

That can't be right. I have faith.

reguarda,
Frediano


Post 52

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Imagine the implications of remote replication technology at both ends of the growing technological range; think of it as 'the first lathe.'

A domain expanding growth wave is launched, including the crudest form of this general replication technology. The wave expands. Information expands, technology advances, and 'better' replication technology evolves, Mark2.

But wait, we launched the first wave? Do we launch a new wave? No, it has the Mark1 Replication technology. And, we communicate the intellectual content required to build the 'better' replication technology, and the initial wave rebuilds itself with the new technology. Information/knowledge gained at any point in this expanding domain(in space and time)is eventually available to all points in the expanding domain.

We are already 'reprogramming' space probes, and we naked sweaty apes have long imagined such scenarios.

The real short term interest in this is, does the restoration of the concept 'gradient' influence just economies at the frontier of such a domain, or all economies within the domain? Does our own floundering 2D surface growth limited paradigm, currently grinding gears in its end game, trying to self align from our previous surface growth based paradigm to an ordered 'sustainable' mode, requiring the marshaling of all of mankind as if we were bees and not naked sweaty apes, actually have a prayer of transitioning to a new paradigm?

Or, would the effort itself to transition to a 3D volume based growth paradigm restore gradient all throughout our present domain, and re-engage our gradient starved economies?

Gradient is a powerful concept. I don't know that man is smart enough to sustain itself without it, in this Universe.

reguarda,
Frediano



Post 53

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Great discussion!

This wasn't the direction I intended for this thread, but that's fine. 

On the topic of sustainability:  The key element in sustainability is responsibility.  When we have the political/legal/economic tech to accurately assign costs to the responsible parties, then problems such as pollution and other "externalities" will virtually disappear.  Factories will not be built where they will conflict with the need to breath, because they will not be able to escape the responsibility and price attached.  Many other technologies that are inherently destructive on a mass scale, while providing advantage to individuals, will also disappear.  This is not an anti-technology screed.  It is a pro-life rant.

Technology is wonderful.  Life is the highest technology.  Our problems largely result from either/or  a state fiat limitation on liability, as in the corporation, or a failure to properly and systematically assess liability in general, thus forcing the costs onto innocent victims and creating an unnatural state of conflict between productive individuals. 

These failures in turn derive intellectually from a faulty concept of property itself.  Just property reflects a social contract, in which the individual or group acquires the exclusive right of use and disposal of some material or intellectual thing in return for paying the costs that their enterprise may create for everyone else - and, in addition, being the highest bidder for the property to begin with. 

This common law view of property - as opposed to the absolutist view derived from the "divine right of kings" - implicitly reflects that fact that most of the value in our lives, including our own knowledge and productivity, was created by other people.  We are responsible for what we accept of that background of wealth that reflects thousands of years of culture and what we do with it.  But any sane concept of property cannot deny that basic fact. 


Post 54

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
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PB,

You still seem to lean heavily on the idea that an alien civilization would be at least 10 million years older than us, but I don't see where your blog remarks adequately support that notion. Perhaps you could elaborate. I lean more towards the idea that multiple civilizations have, do, or will exist which reach out and probe at least a little beyond their local systems. However, I suspect they may not all exist within compatible time frames - some have probably failed the sustainability test (not cleared the 'great filter'), some may develop after we have failed (emphatically not implying we will), and perhaps - through pure chance - some may coexist in our same time an within the eventual reach of our communications. This last group is undoubtedly the closest we will get to knowing intelligent alien life.

Surviving so called "great filters" may be considered an indicator of a civilization's potential long term survivability. Reaching a point where the biosphere is completely balanced and self-sustaining is probably the first major filter (although those anti-nuclear may say not becoming a super-predator, learning not to kill ourselves off might be first). Second, I think, would be an adequate meteor defense system. These could lead towards establishing an older, more advanced society, but I think they are not enough. Staying put in one place unavoidably leads to a stasis, but stasis doesn't itself promote technological advancement. It provides stability - ie time and means for study - but no urgent motivation to push technology along.

Fred - interesting point about how unimportant the need may be to transport ourselves through space to sustain say a trade. However, shipping materials will likely always be an issue. One needs materials to build things. The idea of say 'emailing' a part will probably become feasible. There are cutting devices now that fulfill the rudimentary requirements.

jt

Post 55

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 10:00pmSanction this postReply
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I should have more clearly tied my thoughts around sustainability back to the main point of this thread, the Fermi Paradox, they are in fact closely linked.

The technology (and practice) of sustainability proceeding more rapidly than the technology (and desirability) of fleeing Earth for us humans is not a discussion of merely local interest - it pertains to any alien civilization that manages to progress to a hyper-advanced technological state, and remain there for millions of years, which they would need to do in order for us to be contemporary with them now. In other words, they, like us, will not be driven by the need for material or energy resources to flee their home planet, just as we will not be driven to leave ours out of material necessity. For them, as for us, there is no place like home - their home planet, the one they evolved on, will by any reasonable analysis most likely be the friendliest place for them, probably in the entire universe, forever. We still debate this, but for them, I doubt there will be any question, because they will have studied many places in far more detail than we yet have.

In effect, sustainability technology and practice allowing a steady-state, "homebody" alien civilization, combined with their likely maturity regarding the imprudent intrusion into other life-bearing worlds such as ours due to the deep risk of degrading the scientific value of that world to them in the first place, in fact explains Fermi's paradox. Fermi's paradox harbors the questionable notion that any alien civilization would either want or need to contact us just because we are sentient, but I suggest this reflects our collective desire for a savior, or at least a mentor that can help us solve our problems, more than a careful perusal of what their likely attitudes might be.

Now, there perhaps is a great filter, in the form of the difficulty of maintaining an ancient yet still thriving technological civilization over millions of years. We have no clue as to how hard or easy that is. If it's hard, well, there's your filter - they either go extinct or degrade technologically to the point where they can't contact us, even if they wanted to. But if it's easy, the idea of an alien civilization that does just fine sustaining itself by utilizing the resources of its own planet, relegates the "Spanish Conquistador" or "Independence Day" alien scenario to deep improbability.

Some straightforward deductions explain Fermi's paradox, whether there's just one advanced alien civilization on the other side of the galaxy, or 10 within a hundred light years of us. That is, they won't need to come here for their own material or energy needs, and they will appreciate the scientific value of not overtly contacting us in any case. That sounds strange, but they could actually learn more from us by remote observation, rather than explicit, direct contact. And with millions of years of technological development on us, they would be able to field probes, telescopes, whatever, of truly staggering remote-sensing power, that could capture whatever data at whatever level of detail they felt they needed for their scientific objectives. Perhaps, track the movement of every lifeform on this planet, and maybe even the thoughts of every lifeform on this planet, in real time, over thousands or even millions of years. Whether or not they would choose to do such a thing depends of course on the nature of their scientific inquiries. Usually, the more data the better, but who knows if such a minute level of detail of the activity on this planet would be of interest to them or not. It doesn't really matter - the point is, they would not need to contact us explicitly for their own scientific needs, and our fantasy of them helping us with their advanced knowledge would utterly contaminate the purity of the observation of the technological transition that Earth's civilization is currently undergoing.

The question of "where are all the aliens" almost invariably is approached from our perspective, not theirs. Naturally, we're proud of ourselves, and more or less immediately assume that any advanced alien civilization would want to explicitly contact us, at their earliest convenience. But since they don't, and we assume that they would want to, we get into all kinds of philosophical conundrums of excessive complexity to explain their absence. But, their perspective is really the only one that counts - for all intents and purposes, our perspective is irrelevant.

By the way, I do not concur that sustainability is a "non-issue". It is in fact one of the greatest challenges we as a civilization face. To agree with Phil, it is not primarily a knowledge-bound problem, it is will-bound, discipline-bound, the process usually wrenching. Often, we know the right things to do, we just don't want to change our ways until the resource depletion, environmental degradation, etc, become so apparent that we run out of excuses to avoid doing what we knew all along was the right thing to do. This slow acquisition of civilization-level discipline is in fact an important form of collective wisdom that will serve us well when and if we ever encounter a planet with sentient lifeforms less technologically advanced than us, some thousands or millions of years hence, that perhaps may stay our hand from careless intrusion into their affairs. This is another linkage of the sustainability question with regards to the "Fermi Paradox".

Incidentally, the whole idea of fleeing into space as a gateway to a better, somehow easier life seems entirely without foundation. The considerations of sustainability, energy utilization, etc, are magnified by orders of magnitude for a human living in space as opposed to a human living on Earth. On Earth, air, water, food, protection from deadly cosmic radiation, lots of things, are relatively cheap and abundant. In space, all of these things must be provided, very carefully managed, and absolutely nothing is free. It is extremely unlikely that a human living in space will ever be less expensive than a human living on Earth. Just the opposite - it will almost certainly be much, much more expensive, when all the costs are considered, into the distant future.

Post 56

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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PredictionBoy:

But, why 'their perspective', singular? Why should we not expect 'their perspectives', plural?

This is a human trait, I think; to want to collapse hierarchies into 'hierarchy.' Societies into 'Society', and especially economies into 'Economy.' And in the context of selfishly[*] pondering alien civilizations and their perspectives and motivations, imagining them as 'perspective and motivation.' If there is more than just ours, then I think it is unlikely that there is just one more than ours.

That is not nearly a criticism, so much as an observation of ourselves, of humans. If it is a criticism, it is certainly a self criticism as well. It seems to me that something in our wiring makes us strive to turn pluralities into singulars, in an attempt to make them more tractable ideas. I'm not sure it always is an aid , so much as a comfort, to our understanding(especially with our economies.)

The Universe, itself, is expanding. This is an observation, and is not intended to imply some inevitability about civilizations. The same observation could just as easily be interpreted as meaning 'If there are more than one of us among the stars, then we are all currently moving away from each other at a great rate, towards some forever more isolated future.'

In the meantime, there was our local 2D surface growth wave, and local cul de sacs, and wrongheaded disasters, and occasional great successes. And, in the meantime, among all those myriad perspectives and motivations that may or may not exist in the stars, I would expect more of the same; diversity of perspectives and motivations, cul de sacs, wrong headed disasters, and great successes.

For evidence that there is more than one path to species 'success', if success is defined as long term survival, we can look at our own oceans. A compelling and unanswered question is, is there a 'great filter' that narrows the path to success for technological species, or, dammit, 'great filters?'

regards,
Fred




[*] It is, ultimately, our self interest that causes us to ponder them. What is our future on this path?

And, look at what I just did, because it would have been jarring to ask 'What are our futures on these paths?', and yet ... why not? For all I know, a mystic clinging to the singular may be one of the great filters...



Post 57

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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PredictionBoy:

"It is extremely unlikely that a human living in space will ever be less expensive than a human living on Earth. Just the opposite - it will almost certainly be much, much more expensive, when all the costs are considered, into the distant future."

That may or may not be the case, but it isn't necessary for humans/homebodies to live in space. The concept of gradient reinvigorates gradient all along the gradient, not just at the frontier. That was the case in our 2D surface growth experience.

Material replication. There was a famous EM photograph released by IBM researchers maybe 20 years ago, in which they willfully manipulated individual atoms to spell 'IBM' on some substrate. A gimmick. But if I call that 'Kitty Hawk', then my assumption is that someday, direct manipulation of material on an atomic level at much greater complexity is possible, as long as it isn't dependent on anything running Windows. (Cheap shot.) So, my wild extrapolation of that is, movement from point A to point B of only the intellectual content required to construct Item C. Local incoherent raw material(the new word for garbage)at Point B is willfully formed/reformed into Item C, without actually shipping Item C from point A to point B. The new alchemist's dream, reborn. We are already long doing this with simple prototype 'shapes.' We are already doing this with FPGA, flash ROM, etc. If we extrapolate this a Hellin'(and don't let Windows anywhere near the process--dammit, did it again), if we build better sensors, and in fact, if we build platforms that include some level of Mark1 replication technology, then as long as it is possible to build Mark2 from Mark1, that platform is never obsolete, for as long as we have available bandwidth to it(IP4...IP6....IP64).

Imagine we never man those platforms with humans. Will the effort to deploy those platforms reinvigorate gradient here on earth?

Only 12 humans ever set foot on the Moon. Did the effort to create those 12 sets of footprints have any impact at all on gradient here on earth? Entire economies were set in motion down here in the dirt to make just those 12 set of footprints on the Moon.

In the midst of all that human effort, do we have any means at all in advance to predict what will come out of the effort? Including, the means to make human exploration less expensive and more tractable. But, moot.

Folks are swimming in todays economies just as hard as they ever did, especially, intellectually. But, it is as if the very nature of 'bouyancy' has changed. I believe, that is because we are experiencing a paradigm end game, an end of the concept 'gradient' under the dirt-simple 2D surface model. Modernity has only ever briefly experienced such moments -- the Dark Ages before the last expansion into the New World being one. When people talk about 'post-modern', they are really talking about back to 'pre-modern.' Without gradient, that is MadMax world.

The thing about the recently all but consumed 2D surface growth paradigm, which was a 'dirt simple' geopolitical paradigm, was that although it included intellectual frontiers, it also included non-intellectual frontiers. It more readily accomodated a breadth of opportunities all along the gradient from factual 'frontier' to domain. To put this into a simple concrete, there were opportunities for both steel mill workers and steel mill builders.

At the end of the dirt simple 2D surface growth paradigm, there are an explosion of new frontiers, but they are increasingly narrowly intellectual, and the price of admission is increasingly narrow educational effort.

So, spend 10 minutes at any rest stop on I-95 in our nation of 300,000,000, or ponder a world pushing ten billion, and consider the implications of that new boundary condition, in our tribes, as they are. It is one thing to say 'education is the key.' The reality is what it is. The reality is, without somehow restoring broad opportunities -- gradient of opportuities -- we are heading for MadMax world, a new Dark Ages, which is exactly what happened the last time modernity paused its march at some shores, staring out at some vast inhospitable gulf.

The alternative to some utopic wishful thinking about an imagined transition to a 3D volume growth paradigm is an equally utopic wishful thinking about a miraculous marshalling of mankind into a giant bee colony, no doubt via force if not arrived at via universal enlightenment.

MadMax world may just be what it is. We'll all just do our best, on this hurtling rock, and enjoy the ride as best we can.

regards,
Fred













Post 58

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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While there may be many interesting hypothesis, there is still (alas!) so little available evidence that it is impossible to reasonably argue one plausible scenario over another.

Unquestionably, much more data is needed. Perhaps down the road a superior spaced based telescope, or a faster, smarter interstellar probe will be able to supply us with a better data set. Until then, we can only talk out of our hats.

jt
(Edited by Jay Abbott on 12/31, 11:20am)


Post 59

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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"You still seem to lean heavily on the idea that an alien civilization would be at least 10 million years older than us, but I don't see where your blog remarks adequately support that notion. Perhaps you could elaborate."

10 million years might be too low, I'm actually being conservative. It follows as a direct result of the fact that sentience combined with the ability to technologically manipulate our environment is an evolutionary adaptation that has been pursued exactly once on this planet in its 4.5 billion history, that is, us. And even with us, sentient hominids existed for millions of years before agriculture, and hence 'civilization', began. And even once civilization began, it was another 9,500 years before the scientific method, with its concomitant sustained, relatively rapid, robust rate of advance of scientific and engineering actualization knowledge became possible.

It bears remarking that each of these transitions occurred as a result of a complex set of favorable opportunities, topographical configurations, and other factors that may or may not be common elsewhere.

Given this line of thought, and the many accidents of climate, geological, and faunal change that gave rise to our brand of advanced sentience (Walking with Cavemen is an excellent series in how it explores this, not just for homo sapiens, for many of our precursor hominids as well), civilizational structures (the Fertile Crescent), and scientific institutionalization (competitive European states), to assume that it is common throughout the cosmos, aka the Star Trek model, is empirically unreasonable. We're not unique I don't believe, not saying that, but almost certainly quite rare.

Let me restate the essence of the analysis from my blog:
"Earth is 4.5 billion years old. If we are very generous and say that we started out being reasonably sentient some 3 million years ago, that means that Earth has had sentient lifeforms for only 0.0667% of its history. But of course, primitive hominids do not really constitute civilization. That is only 10,000 years old (the dawn of agriculture), or 0.0002% of Earth's entire history.

However, we need to be more discriminating still if we are going to start comparing technological civilization over the incremental version that characterized most of that 10,000 years (short and often individual-based explorations by brilliant Greeks, Romans, Muslims, Chinese, and others aside), and the accelerated version that we are currently familiar with. There are different ways to define it, but my favored definition of the start of true technological civilization begins with the institutionalization of the scientific method on a national scale, as evinced by competitive European nations a mere 500 years ago, or 5% of the 10,000 years of civilization since the dawn of agriculture. Using this definition, Earth has had technological civilization for 0.0000143% of its history."

In addition to these small percentages, based solely on the time that we've been here vis-a-vis the age of the Earth and/or the time since the rise of complex life, there's another distinct but related statistic to consider, that I haven't mentioned in my blog. That is, out of the millions and millions of species that have lived on the Earth, one has utilized sentience and manipulative technology to achieve its survive and thrive goals - that is, again, us. I'm not going to try to weave that number, yet another very tiny fraction, into the other tiny fractions based on temporal duration of our species stated above, but suffice it to say that it makes the probability of advanced alien civilizations elsewhere even less likely, even more remote, and even more widely spaced in time (that is, even more ancient).

So, 10 million years is very conservative indeed; in fact, it's probably giddily optimistic that they would be even that close to us in time.

The upshot of these tiny percentages of sentient and/or technological civilization on Earth, extrapolated to the rest of the cosmos is that this tiny blip of the rise of sentience elsewhere, the odds of this occurring more or less simultaneously with the rise of sentience on this planet are exceedingly remote. It's not impossible, not saying that, but deeply improbable that they are either close by, or close in time. Hence, the empirically-based and statistically sound proposition that they are far away physically, with a large temporal displacement - ie, much, much older than us. That falls right out from the analysis, there's really little other conclusion that can be reasonably deduced from these numbers.

Now, to make a caveat to my own line of reasoning here, I should perhaps have run a second set of percentages against not just the total age of this planet, but the rise of complex life, say, 300 million years ago. Using 300 million instead of 4.5 billion in the denominator of the fractions used to derive the percentages above, the prospects for sentient life elsewhere on other planets capable of supporting complex life look somewhat better. For example, the last 500 years becomes 0.0001667% of the history of complex life, rather than 0.0000143% of the history of the entire planet. The odds improve somewhat, an order of magnitude greater, but still quite small.

To extend this reckoning from the rise of complex life leads to certain ideas that may be optimistic, but are not without merit. There seems to be a trend throughout evolutionary history of "faster legs". At the dawn of the age of mammals (another good series is "Walking with Prehistoric Beasts", they do a great job of revealing the Eocence and subsequent epochs), running speed was relatively slow. Over time, the "speed of chase", the maximum running speed of various predators and prey have steadily increased.

A very similar idea might pertain to the realm of intelligence. That is, the average intelligence of creatures over time (us being of course the spectacular example) may also be increasing in a similar way, as a response to evolutionary pressures.

If this is true, then even if we pass from the scene from some unhappy event, it may not be another 4 billion years before we see another sentient lifeform like us on this planet. It would be a long time to us, but in the big picture of Earth, maybe not so long - perhaps 50-100 million years, guesstimating here. Much depends on the nature of the unhappy event - a large asteroid strike could reset the clock, as it were, and it might be hundreds of millions of years before another sentient species became a possibility.

If this is true, and this trend is prevalent on all planets with sentient lifeforms, then my very low statistical percentages go up considerably, perhaps an order of magnitude, maybe two orders of magnitude - but they remain quite tiny. Therefore, we're still talking millions of years of likely separation between us and the nearest sentient civilization, either behind or ahead of us, and physically far away, unless we win the cosmic lottery in some way, against all odds.

Yet another dimension to considering the question of the abundance (or lack thereof) of advanced alien civilizations involves exploring the character of the preponderance of life-friendly planets that are out there. An excellent show regarding this is "Extraterrestrial" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelia_and_Blue_Moon), specifically Aurelia. The great majority of stars in the sky are ones we can't see, small red dwarfs. Because these are the preponderance of suns, the preponderance of life-bearing worlds will probably be found orbiting stars like these. However, in order to be life-friendly, because of a red dwarf's dimness, the planet around such a sun would have to orbit so closely that it would be tidally locked. That is, one side always pointing at the sun, the other in eternal darkness.

This is not as bad as it seems for life per se; in fact, one of the revelations of this show was that it incorporated state-of-the-art simulations of the climate of such a planet, and instead of the sun-facing side being baked and inhospitable (the prevalent notion up to that time), instead a perpetual hurricane forms at the center of the sun-facing side of this world, and between this perpetual hurricane and the eternally-frozen dark side of the planet is an aureole-shaped zone quite suitable for life.

This is great news for life, but perhaps not sentient life. This planet would be about as strange a world as we can imagine, if we were stand on it. There would be no seasons; wherever you stood on the planet's surface, the sun would never move in the sky. Much of the seasonal and other forms of dynamism that we take for granted and that were absolutely crucial to the rise of our sentience would be wholly absent on such a world.

Not saying that the rise of sentience on such a world would be impossible, but it would seem far less likely in such a scenario. And these planets represent in all likelihood the vast preponderance of theaters for life-bearing worlds throughout this galaxy and beyond. This consideration is not incorporated into the Drake Equation, it's too new for that, but it perhaps should be - that is, the cosmic, seasonal, and geological dynamism of the world in question, whether or not it can inherently support life.

Another consideration to the Aurelia-type planet dynamic question is tidal dynamism. If Earth didn't have a moon, it would have no tides, and the character of life on this planet would in all likelihood be far different - probably, far less dynamic, because simple ocean tides are a huge evolutionary influence on the critical land-to-ocean boundary. It wasn't covered in the show, but could an Aurelia, a planet tidally-locked to its sun, have a moon, and if so, would its orbit be favorable to the elicitation of evolutionary interesting tides?

Having built a case from many different directions to support the idea of the extreme rarity of sentient, advanced alien civilizations, let me restate unequivocally that I do not believe that we are entirely unique in the cosmos. That would be as deeply improbable as suggesting that they inhabit every star system. But, I would not be surprised if there were only one or two, or even none, in this galaxy, they might be that rare. And if there are one or two others in this galaxy, I might guess that one perhaps is in the vicinity of the galactic center (far enough away from the core to be safe, of course), and perhaps the other on the other side of the galaxy.

If this is the case, then we have some time to think about this. Assuming that they gather information about the cosmos primarily through the light and other electromagnetic radiation emitted and/or reflected by various cosmic bodies, if they are there they almost certainly know about Earth and its life-bearing properties already, but it will be another 40,000 years from now before the galactic center knows about our earliest rise of agricultural civilization, even though that light's been traveling for 10,000 years already. It will be 90,000 years before the far reaches of the other side of the galaxy is aware of this event.

This seems like a long time, and it is; but to an advanced alien civilization millions of years old, possibly populated by what would seem to us citizens of essentially immortal age (I will get into that in a future blog entry), this is just another aspect of gathering the knowledge of the cosmos to gain insights that we are only beginning to get the tiniest glimmer of understanding around.










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