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Post 120

Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

And to be sure, there're plenty of HCGW advocate predictions that have come true: ice caps melting fast and much, tundra warming, more intense and longer storms, tropical diseases increasing, acidification of the ocean. Please understand, I'm not putting these forth as evidence of HCGW!!! That would be futile, as I'm certain you and your fellow deniers would just shrug off these events.
There's a certain level of hypocrisy in what you seem to say. You throw these "facts" out there as evidence of something, claiming your innocence or independence from them, and then pre-conceiving that us "deniers" would just shrug them off. It sets up a good rhetorical defense for you, because if we do more than shrug them off -- if we debunk them -- then you can always say to yourself that we were motivated by the desire to shrug them off; and anything we say after can be relegated to mere rationalization (by us).

It's an argument from intimidation. We're going to shrug off the evidence, we're determined to do that. What we can't do is look at the evidence objectively (and you have objective knowledge of that). You mention (above) that ice caps have melted and that storms have become more intense and longer. You called these things "true." But here's a re-quote from my post 1 in this thread; it's from Bjorn Lomborg (someone who believes in HCGW):

You have undoubtedly read the story about a breakup of a massive glacier in the Antarctic, supposedly showing the ever-increasing effects of global warming. Yet we don't hear that the area was ice-free, possibly just some 400 years ago, without the help of global warming. We don't hear that the Wilkins glacier makes up less than 0.01% of Antarctica. And we don't hear the inconvenient fact that the Antarctic is experiencing record sea ice coverage since satellite measurements began.

While we all heard Al Gore talking about the dramatic hurricane years of 2004 and 2005, we've heard almost nothing about the complete absence of hurricane damage in 2006 and 2007. ...

We are constantly presented with the stories underlining how temperatures are soaring, but over the past year, when temperatures worldwide have plummeted, we've seen the single fastest temperature change every[sic] recorded, either up or down. Yet, this rarely gets mentioned, although stories abound. In January, Hong Kong was gripped with the second longest cold spell since 1885. ... Snow fell on Baghdad for the first time in living memory.
According to Bjorn, the total ice on Earth hasn't decreased and storms haven't increased. That's 2 of your 4 points shot down from an "insider" (a 'non-denier'). Do you have anything to say to that?

Ed


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Post 121

Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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What Ed said :)

Thanks Ed, I soon as read Jordan's claims anthropogenic global warming proponents were correct on their predictions of polar ice cap melting rates I remember those predictions were way off the mark as well. They haven't successfully predicted anything with their climate models. Of course that still leaves the random chance they would be correct on a few predictions, but it would be no more scientific than a psychic occasionally getting a few hits by chance while having a long line of failures that they conveniently try to ignore.

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Post 122

Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, if you haven't already discovered Jeff Glassman you might find him interesting:

"Rocket Scientist's Journal"

He is, incidentally, the father of Greg Glassman who created Crossfit (which I may have mentioned to you before). : )


Post 123

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Mike!

From the link you provided (ACO2 is "anthropogenic"):

... IPCC considers the ocean to absorb ACO2 at a few gigatons per year, half its emission rate. It reports natural CO2 outgassed from the ocean as being exchanged with the atmosphere at about 90 gigatons per year, 100% of the emission rate. IPCC offers no explanation for the accumulation of ACO2 but not natural CO2.

Thus IPCC models Earth's carbon cycle differently according to its source, without its dynamic patterns in the atmosphere and the ocean, without its ready dissolution and accumulation in the surface ocean, and without the feedback of its dynamic outgassing from the ocean.

As a result, IPCC's conclusions are wrong that CO2 is long-lived, that it is well-mixed, that it accumulates in the atmosphere, and that it is a forcing, meaning that it is not a feedback.

7. IPCC errs to model climate without its first order behavior. IPCC does not model Earth's climate as it exists, alternating between two stable states, cold as in an ice age and warm much like the present, switched with some regularity by unexplained forces.

In the cold state, the atmosphere is dry, minimizing any greenhouse effect. Extensive ice and snow minimize the absorption of solar radiation, locking the surface at a temperature determined primarily by Earth's internal heat.

In the warm state, the atmosphere is a humid, partially reflective blanket and Earth's surface is on average dark and absorbent due primarily to the ocean. The Sun provides the dominant source of heat, with its insolation regulated by the negative feedback of cloud albedo, which varies with cloud cover and surface temperature.

As Earth's atmosphere is a by-product of the ocean, Earth's climate is regulated by albedo. These are hydrological processes, dynamic feedbacks not modeled by IPCC but producing the first order climate effects and the natural background which mask any effects due to man. IPCC global climate models do not model the hydrological cycle faithfully. They do reproduce neither dynamic specific humidity nor dynamic cloud cover. They are unable to predict climate reliably, nor to separate natural effects meaningfully from any conjectures about at most second order effects attributed to man.

8. IPCC errs to model climate as regulated by greenhouse gases instead of by albedo. IPCC rejects the published cosmic ray model for cloud cover, preferring to model cloud cover as constant. It does so in spite of the strong correlation of cloud cover to cosmic ray intensity, and the correlation of cosmic ray intensity to global surface temperature. Consequently, IPCC does not model the dominant regulator of Earth's climate, the negative feedback of cloud albedo, powerful because it shutters the Sun.

By omitting dynamic cloud albedo, IPCC overestimates the greenhouse effect by about an order of magnitude (computation pending publication), and fails to understand that Earth's climate today is regulated by cloud albedo and not the greenhouse effect, much less by CO2.

Number 6 (the first 3 paragraphs in this quote) was my deal-breaking issue with Chris Merchant. He couldn't explain, except in an a priori manner ('natural CO2 is constant, increases must be man-made'), the IPCC assumption that atmospheric CO2 increases are 100% anthropogenic. I cut-off debate with him at that point.

Numbers 7 and 8 integrate smoothly with findings from recent empirical investigations, such as the 2009 Zeebe et al. study showing that about 50-to-90% of past warming wasn't due to CO2; and the 2007 Scafetta & West study showing that about 50-90% of recent warming is due to the sun (solar forcing).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/17, 6:45am)


Post 124

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Does anyone know what the proportion is, of our recent warming, that the IPCC attributes to solar forcing (the sun)? I'm guessing they say it's a real small effect, some small percentage of total climate forcing -- even though evidence contradicts that.

Ed


Post 125

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You're assuming too much in what I wrote, and nasty assumptions at that. I offered the HCGW predictions just to show that HCGW advocates made predictions, and that they came true, Lomberg-the-Notorious-GW-Skeptic's criticism to the contrary notwithstanding, since even with his criticisms, we still salvage two verified predictions on that short list I gave.

In no way did I suggest that deniers would be rationalizing by debunking the predictions. I just didn't want to get into more denialist rhetoric (honest, reasoned rhetoric or otherwise). It is no longer of value to me on this thread -- and in no way should that be taken as an attack on anyone's character.

With respect,
Jordan


Post 126

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Does the IPCC even acknowledge that the sun exists?

According to the IPCC, CO2 bouncing around down in the noise of our atmosphere is all.

According to them, it dominates water vapor.

It might as well dominate the sun as well.

Why not? Their reasoning is, water vapor, you see, 'leaves the atmosphere quickly.' But CO2 hangs around. So, you see, CO2 is 'forcing.' Water vapor is not.

Huh? I had to close my eyes, the breeze from all the hand waving was making my eyes dry out. That was water vapor leaving...

But, water vapor also 'enters the atmosphere quickly,' as it must, the atmosphere being dominated by massive buffering oceans.

Does water vapor ever net leave the atmosphere totally?

No. Not even close. Earth's atmosphere is always loaded with water vapor, no matter how quickly it is simultananeously entering and leaving. There is drier air and moister air but it is loaded with more or less moist air.

But, I get it. The CO2 'dwell' argument is to convince folks that thermal energy sticks like molassess to whatever agent captures it in the atmosphere. To believe that, CO2, you see, does not exchange thermal energy with anything else in the atmosphere. It's like CO2 becomes 'radioactive', and the dwell time in the atmosphere is its 'decay' time. We can take those words out of the blender, too, when we throw a science text into a mixmaster, it's a long accepted practice of cargo cult science.

So, what is all this sun ignoring, water vapor ignoring about?

Let's see...can't gin up a theory to regulate all of the economies based on regulating 'the sun', and can't gin up a theory to regulate all of the economies based on regulating 'water vapor', but can gin up a theory to regulate all of the economies based on regulating 'CO2.'

That, and nothing else, is driving the 'science' in this socialist circus. That is the reason why, in the current religious fervor, it is an absolute necessity for the True Religious Believers to blow by both 'the sun' and 'water vapor' and focus way down in the atmospheric noise at paltry 'CO2.'

It is apparently rude of some of us to notice this subterfuge.


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Post 127

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

Does anyone ever mention the negative feed-back loop of heat near the equator, transfer of that heat with ocean currents and water-vapor? The humid climates of those areas fed by ocean currents while close to shallow waters near equator (like Florida and Southeast Asia) versus the dry climates found near the parts of globe with cold currents flowing past (Southern California and the Mexican desert of Baja - Northwest Africa). That transfer of heat isn't just by ocean current, but also by warm, wet air masses that transfer heat and water inland. The hotter it gets, the more evaporation, the more evaporation the more of a cooling effect on the water, and the more heat is transfered inland as the water-vapor that rains down (cooling from condensation and returning to the ocean in rivers). This heat transfer is a system that is fired up in proportion to the amount of heat created by the sun, it is a feedback loop that offsets the radiant and reflected heat.

I've found that models and theories, particularly those predicting doom, are often based upon assumptions that are linear with positive feedback loops being recognized, but ignoring any negative feedback loops that resist change quite effectively.

Post 128

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I enjoyed your answer, but it still left me wanting. If anyone knows ...

What % of global warming does IPCC attribute to the sun?
:-)

Ed


Post 129

Friday, July 17, 2009 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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I found a tentative answer to my question at Wikipedia:

****************
  • Total radiative forcing from the sum of all human activities is a warming force of about +1.6 watts/m˛
  • Radiative forcing from an increase of solar intensity since 1750 is about +0.12 watts/m˛

  • ****************


    That puts man's role in warming at a level that is over 13 times higher than the sun's role -- a statement which contradicts empirical findings (i.e., a physical impossibility). Here's the IPCC graph of climate forcing agents:
    File:Radiative-forcings.svg

    From:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPCC_Fourth_Assessment_Report

    Ed

    (Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/17, 9:41pm)


    Post 130

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 4:29amSanction this postReply
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    Ed,

    I won't rule out it being a physical impossibility... only because they are say "from an increase of solar intensity", which is different than saying "from solar intensity", and thus are discussing (unquantified, here) small undefined fractions of radiation. Nevertheless, I would agree it is at least counter-intuitive.

    Importantly, this relationship is something that is certainly measurable by lab experiment. Thus this chart is meaningless unless supported by careful observation under a controlled laboratory conditions.

    jt

    Post 131

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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    Jay,

    Here is why it's physically impossible for the IPCC graph to be correct:

    (1) According to IPCC graph, greenhouse gases are the vast majority of all of the causes of climate change (global warming) making up well over half of all of the proportionate causes, but ...
    ****************
    --Greenhouse gases can't be a vast majority of all of the causes of global warming, because that would mean that the temperature of the lower troposphere (lowest 8 kilometers of atmosphere), the above-ground area where greenhouse gases reflect the heat back to Earth, would change, lock-step, with surface temperature -- and satellite measurements prove that it hasn't
    ****************

     
    (2) According to IPCC graph, increased water vapor is less than 4% of all of the increased greenhouse gas, but ...
    ****************
    --The IPCC inferred that 100% of the observed increase in greenhouse gas concentration since 1750 is (anthropogenic) due to man -- and that is wrong (an incorrect inference), as up to 20% of the increased greenhouse gas came from the sun, primarily by warming up the ocean so much that it released more water vapor; along with other effects such as changed vegetation cover and bacterial population
    ****************


    (3) According to the IPCC graph, the sun is responsible for less than 5% of the observed warming since 1750, but over 50% of this warming took place after 1900, and ...
    ******************
    --The sun is responsible for at least 49% of the observed warming from 1900 to 2005
    ******************

    You just can't take 49% of a value which starts out higher than 50% ... and end up with less than 5% (it's impossible). The best you can do is get it down to about 25% or so -- staying within the realm of possibility.

    Ed

    Post 132

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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    Jay,

    I gave 3 reasons why the IPCC graph cannot be correct. Reason number 1 is the easiest to validate. Here (if you're interested) is the validation for reason number 1 ...


    (A) There's an inexplicable difference in the trend of warming on the surface vs. that of 8-10 km up (troposphere) -- amounting to a 0.1 degrees Celsius per decade:
    Estimated global-scale temperature trends at Earth's surface (as recorded by thermometers) and in the lower troposphere (as monitored by satellites) diverge by up to 0.14 degrees C per decade over the period 1979 to 1998. Accounting for differences in the spatial coverage of satellite and surface measurements reduces this differential, but still leaves a statistically significant residual of roughly 0.1 degrees C per decade. Natural internal climate variability alone, as simulated in three state-of-the-art coupled atmosphere-ocean models, cannot completely explain this residual trend difference. ...
    [abstract] Santer et al. Interpreting differential temperature trends at the surface and in the lower troposphere. Science. 2000 Feb 18;287(5456):1227-32


    (B) If IPCC assumptions are correct, then the troposhere should warm at a rate that is about 160% or 1.6 times that of warming at the surface -- yet, per decade, the surface warmed 17 hundredths of a Kelvin while the troposhere only warmed less than 10 hundredths. That's less than half of the "expected" tropospheric warming for a given surface warming of 0.17 K. However, if (in a fit or flight of fancy) even more assumptions are added to the mix -- and we just flat-out, totally ignore half of the collected data -- then we get to rationalize this discrepancy away as if we were waving a magic wand!:
    From 1979 to 2001, temperatures observed globally by the mid-tropospheric channel of the satellite-borne Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU channel 2), as well as the inferred temperatures in the lower troposphere, show only small warming trends of less than 0.1 K per decade (refs 1-3). Surface temperatures based on in situ observations however, exhibit a larger warming of approximately 0.17 K per decade (refs 4, 5), and global climate models forced by combined anthropogenic and natural factors project an increase in tropospheric temperatures that is somewhat larger than the surface temperature increase. Here we show that trends in MSU channel 2 temperatures are weak because the instrument partly records stratospheric temperatures whose large cooling trend offsets the contributions of tropospheric warming. We quantify the stratospheric contribution to MSU channel 2 temperatures using MSU channel 4, which records only stratospheric temperatures. The resulting trend of reconstructed tropospheric temperatures from satellite data is physically consistent with the observed surface temperature trend. For the tropics, the tropospheric warming is approximately 1.6 times the surface warming, as expected for a moist adiabatic lapse rate.
    [abstract] Fu et al. Contribution of stratospheric cooling to satellite-inferred tropospheric temperature trends. Nature. 2004 May 6;429(6987):55-8.


    (C) But we shouldn't just flat-out ignore half of the collected data like that (that would be "cherry-picking" the data). We shouldn't rationalize this discrepancy away as if we were waving a magic wand:
    ... Fu et al. linearly combine time series from two MSU channels to estimate vertically integrated 850-300-hPa temperatures and claim consistency between surface and free-troposphere warming for one MSU record. We believe that their approach overfits the data, produces trends that overestimate warming and gives overly optimistic uncertainty estimates. There still remain large differences between observed tropospheric temperature trends and those simulated by a climate model.
    [abstract] Tett & Thorne. Atmospheric science: tropospheric temperature series from satellites. Nature. 2004 Dec 2;432(7017):1 p following 572; discussion following 572.


    Recap:
    Troposphere warming should be about 1.5 that of surface warming, and that hasn't happened -- so greenhouse gas can't be responsible for the vast majority of recent warming (because greenhouse gas only "works" by warming the troposphere more, not merely the same as -- and certainly not less than! -- its warming of the surface).

    Ed


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    Post 133

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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    Ed,

    I've really wanted to stay out of any technical discussions of global warming, because 1) I'm not an expert, and 2) even the expert's arguments have broken down into a series of "he said, she said" bickering discussions.

    My overall take on this whole issue is that we - mankind - certainly contribute to global warming, but that existing science does not even remotely support the claims of alarmists that as to a) there is truly a global warming going on, b) there will be unacceptable consequences, or c) it is all anyone's fault.

    My poor opinion is that, while your tortured analysis of that chart & study are correct overall, that your arguments were still imperfect.

    (A) " cannot completely explain this residual trend difference. ..." does not assume that there may still be some unmeasured variant or explanation. Even though this still reasonably supports your conclusion, it does not quite.

    Really, my only gripe with much of what has been said on the anti-alarmist side of the debate is that sometimes people seem to feel they have to stretch their arguments to discredit every fact that alarmists present. Doing so only calls into question their own allegiance to fact.

    jt

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    Post 134

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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    Fine, Jay. Let me tone it down then:

    The IPCC report is built around the key assumption that the 'greenhouse effect' provides most of the climate forcing on Earth. However, peer-reviewed reports of independent investigations -- most specifically those dealing with atmospheric warming and those dealing with sun activity -- call into question the external validity of this assumption. In polite fairness, IPCC should be given a chance to make appropriate adjustments after judicious review of these investigations.

    Better?

    :-)

    Ed

    (Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/18, 9:02pm)


    Post 135

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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    For what it's worth, on a site entitled "understanding global warming - thehullabaloo.com," Jared Sichel wrote,
    There is certainly scientific consensus that man-made carbon dioxide emissions have increased every year during the last decade. But there is no scientific consensus that those emissions have driven temperature upwards.

    In one fell swoop, the first two conditions for global warming can be all but thrown out. Since Al Gore released his well-known movie, “An Inconvenient Truth,” the Earth has cooled by approximately one-third of a degree.

    In that same time, man-made carbon dioxide emissions have increased. That means that since Gore’s movie, there has actually been a negative correlation between carbon dioxide emissions and temperature, which pokes a hole in his graph that link carbon dioxide emissions and temperature.

    Gore also falsely inferred that correlation means causation. He showed that there is a correlation between temperature and carbon dioxide emissions and assumed that the correlation means that one force is causing the other. In the last century, however, along with increasing temperatures, there has also been an increase in the amount of cell phones. Correlation? Yes. Causation? I hope not.

    Unfortunately, Gore is not the only person who has published dubious data regarding global warming. Late last year, NASA published a report claiming that November 2008 was the warmest November in recorded history. Skeptical scientists immediately challenged NASA’s data, and NASA came out and apologized, claiming that they accidentally copied the October 2008 temperatures recorded in Russia.

    NASA, which is oft-quoted by global warming advocates, has been adding 0.15 degrees Celsius to its U.S. temperature reports since 2000, according to well-known global warming skeptic and statistician Steve McIntyre. According to McIntyre, NASA claimed that the year 2006 was the warmest in recorded history. Well, close, sort of. It was actually the fourth warmest. Number one was 1934, when carbon dioxide emissions were nowhere near today’s levels. In fact, only four of the 11 warmest recorded years have occurred in the last 54 years.




    Post 136

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
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    Ed,

    Regarding your graph of Radioactive Forcing Components, I wrote in Post 0:

    The IPCC has disputed solar radiation as the cause of the arctic temperature variations, on the grounds that the net forcing by CO2 is 1.7 Watts/m2, whereas the net forcing of solar radiation is only 0.2 Watts/m2. Although Dr. Soon says that, as a solar astrophysicist, he does not agree with the value of the sun's net radiant forcing as decided by the IPCC, he states that even if one accepts the IPCC's value, it still doesn't support their conclusion, because it is not the net forcings – the net difference between the solar radiation and the CO2 concentration – but the overall magnitude of the forcing that is important in the questions of climate and weather change. He observes that the change in the sun’s forcing results from the difference of a baseline that is at least a factor of 10 greater than the overall forcing of CO2, which (even if one accepts the IPCC's figures) is 341 Watts/m2 for the sun versus 32 Watts/m2 for CO2.

    "His point is that one must consider both the baseline and the baseline plus the changed conditions as inseparable factors in weather and climate. One cannot simply pick and choose by looking only at the net difference in the rate of forcings, since one must know the key meteorological and climatic processes that determine the baseline climatology before knowing how climate varies and changes."

    - Bill


    Post 137

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 11:17pmSanction this postReply
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    Bill,

    Thanks for hammering that into my head. Really.

    It's the second time, and I have to say that I "got it" now. IPCC assumes some past year as a baseline. Whatever amount of CO2 and sun activity it records for that year is considered to have a null-effect. From that year, forward, they see the amount of CO2 changing more or faster than the amount of sun activity. They presume that whichever factor changes the most (from the baseline year) must be the one causing the most climate change. It's a fallacy, but I'm not sure which one (yet).

    It's like a casino manager taking notes of where most of the "house" money goes out (to the gamblers). He sees the high-stakes blackjack table and the penny slot machines. He notes that the penny slot machines go off -- or "jackpot" -- much more often, and with lots and lots of pennies falling; whereas the high-stakes blackjack table moves much more slowly, and only a few blue chips are passed back and forth.

    He wrongly concludes that most of the casino money is paid out to the customers playing penny slots -- because he "sees" more action occurring there. He fails to integrate that each blue chip passed to the customer is another $500 paid out (i.e. worth dozens and dozens of penny-slot "jackpots"). You could have 2 or 3 times as much of a change in the amount paid out in penny slots -- and it still wouldn't even approach the effect of a slow-moving blackjack table.

    Is that analogy a good one?

    Ed

    Post 138

    Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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    Ed,

    It sounds good to me, but I'm no expert on this. Willie Soon gives his own analogy. He states:

    "To really understand what I mean by that, consider this analogy for those who would prefer something different from numbers.

    "Here, if we want to really compare one Watt/m2 of solar radiation to one Watt/m2 of CO2 radiant forcing, simply consider the effect of having Mr. William “Refrigerator” Perry of the NFL Chicago Bears from the mid-1980’s (which was the time when I watched football) representing the sun, trying to tackle Tom Brady who represents the climate system. In contrast, consider Willie Soon, who is representing the CO2. Even if I (Willie Soon) managed to gain 1.7 pounds and Refrigerator Perry only gained 0.2 pounds, I couldn’t gain any edge over Refrigerator Perry in being able to tackle Tom Brady."

    - Bill


    Post 139

    Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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    Bill,

    That's a great analogy.

    Ed


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