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Post 60

Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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JT,

I have no idea if that's right approach, much less whether it's been tried and done. :-/

Ed,

1% might be enough to muck up the atmosphere and affect our lives. I guess you're saying that's just not posible. I just don't know. Well, we know each other's positions, so Let's not dwell.

Jordan

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Post 61

Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

1% might be enough to muck up the atmosphere and affect our lives. I guess you're saying that's just not pos[s]ible. I just don't know. Well, we know each other's positions, so Let's not dwell.
I will agree to cease dwelling on this issue if you grant me the last word.

When you say that 1% might be enough to muck up the atmosphere, it's an opened-ended and absolute statement. The variability in the temperature might be so high that 1% truly doesn't make any difference. Think of a bullet speeding toward you. Would it help -- at all -- if you could remove 1% of the mass and/or 1% of the speed of the bullet? No. In both cases, you would meet grave consequences.

And it works the other way, too. If 1% of the mass of a bullet was traveling toward you at 1% of the average speed of a bullet, then it would merely feel like a mosquito bite (annoyance) to you. The 1% wouldn't matter to your overall well-being. There are times when 1% truly doesn't matter (to humans). The weakness in this analogy is that it is a one-time shot, while the 1% forcing of climate change is envisioned as being compounded through time. Even still, there are good reasons to believe that even 1% compounded, will make no big difference to us.

Side Note: If all you are saying is that it might "matter" to Mother Nature or Mother Earth or Gaia (rather than to us), then I can't rationally disagree with you -- because that's not a rational position in the first place. It would truly be fruitless for us then, to dwell.

You say it might matter, I disagree. Fine, but through the book: Cool It, by Bjorn Lomborg, I have become very informed as to what kinds of climate changes would matter to human welfare.

Also, what does the 1% really mean? It's not a 1% change in the Earth's temperature -- it's a 1% change of the change in the Earth's temperature. It means that even if man didn't exist, the Earth would have a temperature signature 99% as similar as that recorded. The temperature changes would all be 99% of what they were, historically. Now, the only way I can envision the 1% change of observed changes as mattering -- is if I extend the time-scale far out into the future (1000+ years) where a tiny 1% difference can matter to our welfare. However, due to man's technological advance, problems then will be easily averted.

So, by the time it would start to matter (if current technology didn't improve), it will have ceased to matter.

Here are a couple of concrete examples:

One way that global warming has been postulated to "matter" is with rising sea levels. Folks are envisioned as drowning en masse under a one-foot rise in sea level by 2100. This is flagrant alarmism. The UN estimates that by then, the average income in the developing world to be 100,000 present-value dollars annually. If the poor today (those in the developing world) will make $100,000 a year, then they can afford a to buy a boat or a levee. Also, we've already -- since 1860 -- experienced a one-foot rise in sea levels on Earth, and there was no ensuing catastrophe.

Another one-foot rise in sea level (by 2100) will be no big deal. As Lomborg puts it (p 70):

... this is because increases in wealth are more important than those in sea level ... It is a simple matter of the costs and benefits facing each nation. Micronesia could lose 21 percent of its land at a cost of 12 percent of its GDP; however, for 7.4 percent of its GDP, it can save almost all of its land, making protection the better deal. For all other nations, the deal is much better, and consequently the protection even higher.
Keep in mind that this forecast relies on the assumption of increasingly man-forced global warming (which may or may not exist in a meaningful degree) rather than on merely-natural temperature cycles. Because of that, it is truly a worst-case scenario.

Another way that global warming has been postulated to "matter" is by stopping the Gulf Stream (this was depicted in the 2004 movie, The Day After Tomorrow ) and, in the process, cooling the ocean by several degrees (leading to an Ice Age). As Lomborg points out (p 87-88),

The Gulf Stream last shut down some 8,200 years ago, when the final glacial ice sheets in North America melted and a giant pool of freshwater built up around the area of the Great Lakes. ... Now there are concerns that it could happen again. Of course, there is no glacial ice sheet and giant freshwater pool around today, but possibly meltwater from Greenland could trigger such a phenomenon.

Yet the relevance of such a story crucially depends on the Greenland melt being on the same order of magnitude as the ancient freshwater pool--and it is not. Over the coming century, the IPCC expects Greenland to melt almost one thousand times less than what happened 8,200 years ago. 

So, whenever GWAs (global warming alarmists) have postulated a way in which global warming matters a lot, further analysis proves them wrong on that. Global warming, when weighted against human problems in general, is not a big deal at all.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/11, 11:38am)


Post 62

Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

I forgot to mention that I do like your point about running a lab experiment. It wouldn't perfectly match earth's temperature change, but it'd be informative to measure the greenhouse effect in trials, rather than relying on interpreting observational data.

Ed


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Post 63

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

Posting reams of cargo cult science onto a website is what is called 'a long weekend.' If that is your source for compelling scientific argument, then I'm not convinced.

The site you referenced debunks nothing. It claims to debunk everything. It is in-ter-net noise, and poor argument, not scientific argument. It is a classic example of cargo cult science.

Specifically, the role of water vapor vs CO2. Your own assertion speaks volumes:

"Also, I remember reading this recent article about the cloud coverage variance due to the sun is not significant enough to account for recent temperature trends."

In the solar loading temperature balance equation, albedo is a direct influence, not an indirect influence, just like solar radiance. IOW, a 1% change in albedo would have the same impact as a 1% change in solar radiance, which would be a huge change. This is one reason why the man-made emission of particulates is and can be directly impactful on climate.

But, it has also been observed(and reinforced by your comment above)that the earth's full disk albedo varies over only an incredibly tiny range of values. If it did not, then total solar loading would vary greatly.

This is in spite of the fact that there are significant and observable diurnal variances in earth albedo--changes in local albedo that respond immediately, on the scale of minutes, not decades. You can see this on satellite imagery, and you can experience it as the often realized trend that 'thunderstorms often crop up in the late afternoon and evening.'. But if you average out the diurnal variation in earth albedo, the resulting daily full disk averages are incredibly constant over time.

Remarkably so. Well beyond the random chance of statistical probability so. The only possible conclusion is that there is an incredibly 'stiff' feedback mechanism that regulates the average earth albedo value. We don't wake up and find full disk nearly 100% cloud cover, and we don't wake up and find full disk nearly 0% cloud cover. We always see an incredibly narrow range of diurnally averaged albedo values. This is in spite of the fact that there are significant and daily perturbations to the factors which govern cloud cover.

We also experience incredible step perturbations in particulates, climate scale events from Pinatubo and so on. A thousand active volcanoes. And what we observe is, an incredibly stiff response to these even massive perturbations. Our atmosphere is not 'fragile', it is remarkably resilient and tolerant to natural disturbances of enormous magnitude, from volcanoes. Ie, much higher step-rate loading than mankind could easily muster.

In spite of the years of inculcations from panic voiced British actor-journalist-activists on BBC, Earth's climate is not in a 'delicate balance.' Every indication is that earth's climate is neither balanced, nor constant, nor anything other than random and chaotically driven, primarily by solar variation.

That is not to say, we could not imagine events that would overwhelm the atmosphere. We should not 'shit the nest.' We could do some real damage by distributing Plutonium throughout the atmosphere. Meteor, comet impact, worldwide nuclear war. But, that is exactly the comparison with CO2 and man-made emissions of CO2, and CO2, for sure, is not Plutonium, it is an largely naturally emitted harmless gas, a consequence of 'life' on earth, period.

It's as if there were a hail of meteors regularly falling from the heavens, impacting the earth, and our response was to regulate baseball games. That would be absurd, the few baseballs we hit out of the park and into the street are nowhere near meteor size. The same applies not only to the tiny fraction of all emitted CO2 that is emitted by mankind, but the much tinier fraction of that that we have a prayer of doing anything significant about. In the great hailstorm of CO2 being emitted, man's portion is insignificant, even if CO2 was the controlling factor in our climate-which it is not.

And, there is absolutely no historical evidence that CO2 is or ever was a controlling factor in our thin, buffered atmosphere. Al Gores own ice core data indicates an 800 year lag between the fluctuations in global temperatures and following fluctuations in global CO2 levels. There is every indication that CO2 is an effect, not a cause.

And with the 2005 announced observation by NASA that the Mars polar caps were also noted to be in a period of recession, the cause for recent fluctuations is clearly indicated to be solar, not mankind.

If CO2 were a driver-- THE driver -- then past fluctuations would have dominated the climate record; they don't.

If it was a question of 'step loading rate', then any volcanic eruption would have clearly dominated the 'step loading rate' deliverable by mankind.

If mid altitude predictive trends predicted by the tweaked models do not appear in the observational data -- weather balloons and satellite sounder data(what was that total nonsense about 'drifting' satellite orbits? That was total voodoo nonsense, meant for the kids), then the tweaked model hypothesis are disproved.

I see your background is in jurisprudence. I spent my salad days helping to calibrate atmospheric models at GFDL, at Princeton. I fully understand how computer models of the atmosphere are tweaked and tweakable, I used to tweak them. There are two fundamentally different timescales of prediction: "weather" and "climate." "Weather" modeling is calibratable, because ground truth rolls along every day. And still, state of the predictive art is maybe 240 hrs/ten days. (Ha.) "climate" modeling is not; we don't nearly have the time series data sets available to accurately describe the climate "hundreds of thousands of years ago" to adequately calibrate any 'climate' scale models(scientifically test its predictive accuracy.) So, 'climate' scale models can be tweaked to provide any hypothetical outcome desired, and the more dire the outcome, the more interest they get from political scientists, and the more funding is thrown to generate abusable scientific myths.

Look at the chemical reaction in the vaunted catalytic converter; it was designed to emit 'harmless' CO2.

There is another argument to be made for cap and trade, but it is specious to couch it in terms of Cargo Cult science.

"We want to tax energy consumption, to change the economic dynamics of alternative energy development."

Then, folks should just make that argument, period, and not treat people like complete idiots, selling them on this CO2 nonsense. All it is doing is cementing the paradigm of using Cargo Cult science to sell boob bait to boobs. If that principle can be abused to foist a laudable goal (increased efforts to realize alternative energy sources), then it can also be abused for total political nonsense.

We shouldn't be encouraging the abuse of science for political goals, and Margaret Thatcher might have led the silly parade on this one.




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Post 64

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

Re; I'm not sure your discussion of proportions is relevant. Even if human contribution is small, it might still be significant.

The US produces something like 42 billion gallons of carbonated beverages a year. The carbon in carbonation is CO2.

It is not CO2 that is taken out of the atmosphere; that would be an incredibly poor way to harvest and manufacture CO2. CO2 is fringe in the atmosphere.

The CO2 in carbonated beverages is brand 'new' CO2, generated from CO2 generators via processing of combustion gases, specifically burned to generate CO2.

Ignore for a moment the fact that Coke has cute Polar Bears in its ads, and has gone totally 'green' all over itself. Man-made emission of CO2 is apparently such a non-issue that we regularly tolerate the commerce in personal cans of CO2 emission. "Mankind isn't emitting enough CO2, we need to distribute personal cans of bottled CO2 to be released directly."

Given that you believe that "I'm not sure your discussion of proportions is relevant. Even if human contribution is small, it might still be significant.", are you going to call for an immediate ban of all carbonated beverages?

In advance, please do no rely on any 'proportionality' in your argument, it would be jarring.






Post 65

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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thought this might be fun to dissect -
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/michael-crichtons-state-of-confusion/

Post 66

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Some interesting insights Fred, I enjoyed reading them. Thanks for the contribution.

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Post 67

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Anybody:

I've often asked this fundamental question, few folks seem to know or care. And yet, it is fundamental to the question at hand:

What 'the' global temperature are we all talking about?

Area weighted and averaged, or mass weighted and averaged?

Diurnal variations averaged out? Seasonal averages averaged out?

If mass weighted and averaged, then are we including the mass of the oceans in our earth atmosphere 'the' temperature model?

If not mass weighted, then just to get a handle on what is being ignored, what is the relative amount of total thermal energy locked up in the atmosphere vs. the total amount locked up in the atmosphere/ocean system? It is good to have some idea what we are ignoring in our 'the' global temperature discussions.

If we are including the oceans in our mass averaged 'the' global temperature calculations, then what is our stated uncertainty in the thermocline distribution over the entire globe? Today? 100 years ago? 1000 years ago? And, so on?

If we are comparing 'apples to apples' Global temperatures from 'ice core gas sample analysis', then pray tell, how is all of the above garnered from that from local samples from thousands of years ago? Please state realistic uncertainties for all of that.

How does our 'drifting satellite orbit global data' compare with the 'drifting satellite orbit global data' from Lincoln's time? Surely, Lincoln authorized AVHRR data collection, and sounder data, and so on. Please tell me that grad students have 'corrected' the AVHRR data from Lincoln's century, to compare to our 'drifting' satellite based AVHRR survey data.

All satellite's 'drift,' some have station keeping navigation fuel, and it is a fundamental aspect of interpreting satellite borne remote sensing data that the location of the platform in time and space is accurately known. See http://celestrak.com/, which advises that data is available back to 1957, on request.

This isn't a brand new revelation to the scientists interpreting satellite data. I can't believe the voodoo nonsense that is hurled up on these sites to muddy the water.

1957. Hmm. If you want to get information on the satellite borne data from Lincoln's time and earlier, you have to look elsewhere, but don't let the dearth of that data stop you from comparing apples and lug-nuts, it doesn't stop anybody else.

If we are knowingly talking about some definition of 'the' global temperature -- to a precision of a few degrees C --- then I'd think it would be an easy thing to declare our understanding of what that 'the' temperature is.

Area averaged surface? Mass averaged?

Surely, we know.

If this is primarily a political science issue, then I submit, it makes no difference.





Post 68

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

The Website I linked is written by working climate scientists, i.e., experts, despite their intransigence on the subject, and site sources, which makes them more persuasive. Please site sources; otherwise, it looks like you're making it all up.

I'm relying on significance. Ed is relying on proportionality. Per his request, I'm giving him the last word on it.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 7/13, 12:36pm)


Post 69

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan you're an attorney, you should know better that the burden of proof is on you not Fred to prove man is adversely affecting the atmosphere to his detriment. Considering Fred's credentials, I'm going to take his written opinion over your spamming of website links.

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Post 70

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

I've 'made up' the concept of mass averaged vs. area averaged temperature?

As someone who has sat through Ascher Shapiro's remarkable lectures at M.I.T., this comes as a shock to me.(No pun intended.)

So, for that, my reference would be, "Shapiro, Ascher H., The Dynamics and Thermodynamics of Compressible Fluid Flow Vol I," 1954, The Ronald Press Company, New York. And I'm sure, about ten thousand others.

There's an interesting plot in there of the concept of 'temperature' vs. the scale over which an attempt to define it is made. It is illuminating. And apparently, easy to gloss over, and ignore.

His lectures were truly remarkable, he'd been giving them for years. As he was ending the last chalk stroke on the board, the bell would ring simultaneously. It was like watching a ballet on a chalkboard.

Well, since you are relying on the websites of 'working climate scientists' and so on, it shouldn't be too hard to pass on your understanding of what 'the' global temperature all these folks are talking about, to a 'significance' of a few degrees C. Clearly, this fundamental definition must be front and center in all those reams of 'referenced' data.

Here's a puzzler; how many Hollywood jewelery designers made it onto the list of the IPCC's 'top 1500 scientists in the world' list? How many florists?

Dare I wonder, how many lawyers?

Speaking of lawyer talk:

"By "significant," I mean a measurable change in the indices by which we measure climate change. That does correlate to stochastic significance. Discussing proportion and size of contribution is a distraction. Small contributions can have significant affects. A little hole can sink a big boat."= "I'm relying on significance."

Those 'indices' are something called 'the' Global temperature. Surely, you don't expect anyone to swallow the gimick that the 'indices' are the % of CO2? That would make it a loaded assertion, without proving the connection between CO2 and 'the' global temperature.

And surely, you wouldn't ask me to disavow my primary experiences at GFDL, working for my advisor, Prof. George L. Mellor, calibrating tweakable models, to accept the slight of hand of accepting differences in the output of tweaked climate models as evidence of any causal relationship?

What 'the' Global temperature are we angsting about? THis can't be that much of a mystery, surely; it is talked about constantly, with much certitude. Why, the G8 leaders just told us all they were compelling it to a 2 degC range of something. Clearly, this is a well defined and well understood concept.

Uh-oh. I hope we don't all find out that the 'the' temperature they are talking about is the output of some set of tweaked, and totally uncalabrated, and totally uncalabratable climate models; that would be downright laughable.

If a little hole can sink a boat, and therefore, all little holes sink boats, and so on, then the 'cautionary principle' clearly requires us to ban all carbonated beverages. Surely this isn't controversial. I'm sure, if it was necessary(or convenient, in Al Gore's parlance) we could tweak an unclabrated, and unclabratable climate model to make it 'significant.'

Piece of cake.

regards,
Fred












Post 71

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Fred:

If a little hole can sink a boat, and therefore, all little holes sink boats, and so on, then the 'cautionary principle' clearly requires us to ban all carbonated beverages.


Or ban breathing. :)

Post 72

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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John,

I'm not trying to prove anything here. Back in post 27 I said that I'm going to resist discussing evidence that I find persuasive for climate change. So this thread has largely been about the sun, rather than humans, as explaining climate change. That's the positive assertion. The burden of proof falls to they who assert it. All I've done is reference people who try to poke holes in the sun-climate-change theories.

Fred,

Well, you cited some sources, but loads of your claims remain apocryphal, e.g., all the albedo talk, perturbations, CO2 is an effect not a cause. Surely you don't expect us to rely on your word alone for the veridality of all these claims?

As for climate change indices, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "'the' global temperature." Do you mean average surface temperature? That's what I see the research talk about. But there's more than just average surface temperature as an index. I've seen climatologists talk about ocean acidification, sea levels, atmospheric temperature, ice cores, tree cores, plant growth, precipitation, glacial movement, chemical composition of the air, and yes, even solar activity.

Jordan

Post 73

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
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I tried to come to Jordan's defense against Fred's request for Jordan to at least come up with 'the' temperature of the Earth (so that we know what we are talking about in this thread).

Amazingly, I couldn't find scientific literature that actually provided the Earth's temperature! I even got a chance to view full-text articles (some of the links below) -- and none of those buggers ever mentioned the temperature of the globe! Instead, they all spoke about 'change.' Change from baseline -- with baseline poorly defined as merely a calendar year. Change this, change that, "Hope and change!", "Yes, we can!", ... yada yada yada.

Side note: My cousin mentioned to me today that B. Obama, with his big plans to change America, should change his bromide to: "Because I can!" I admitted it'd be more honest to put it that way -- though somewhat less 'collectivistic'.

Anyway, (because I can) let me share with you the peer-reviewed scientific journal articles I viewed when trying to come to Jordan's defense. I searched these articles or abstracts for the key words 'degree' and 'temperature':

Full-text:

http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/365/1857/2103.long

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/30/12259.long

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/40/15258.long

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/13/5041.long

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/49/19154.long

Abstract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19516338

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407800

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19289827

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19047640

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18838680

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18518079

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17962560

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17272686

I think there's some overlap with some of the abstracts also being full-text linked above (but there were at least 9 relevant articles, which all -- curiously -- failed to mention the Earth's temperature!). Why don't researchers tell us what the temperature is??? I think that Fred is onto something.

Thanks for pointing this out, Fred.

Oh, and sorry I couldn't defend you better, Jordan.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/13, 5:50pm)


Post 74

Monday, July 13, 2009 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

I appreciate the effort. I suspect you're getting caught up because most studies model change in temperature rather than temperature itself, even though most of those models implicitly include the temperatures themselves. So I googled global average surface temperature and found a site with a nice chart from NASA. It's a policy site, but they site the sources of their data, and that makes all the difference. To avoid kfetching about the site I linked, here's the NASA site. The site acknowledges the "elusive" nature of an absolute surface air temperature.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 7/13, 8:09pm)


Post 75

Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I appreciate the effort. I suspect you're getting caught up because most studies model change in temperature rather than temperature itself, even though most of those models implicitly include the temperatures themselves.
Okay, but I'm not sure that you appreciate my dismay about it. You see, I've been 'doing' science for about 21 years (college, lab work, teaching, etc.) and I have never come across an issue so elusive. Let's say I'm studying 'weight change in humans' (rather than 'temperature change on Earth'). One of the first things I look for in studies -- and I always find -- is the average weight of the humans in question. 

I have read over 100 (perhaps over 1000) scientific studies and I have read over 1,000 (perhaps over 10,000) scientific abstracts. This 'let's-talk-about-the-variable-"X"--but-never-actually-measure-it' is unprecedented.

And searching the first 10 hits at giss.nasa.gov for the phrase 'global temperature' -- which was used in your linked-to graph (which was supposed to have NASA GISS as its "source") reveals another 10 failures of reporting the Earth's temperature. That's 0 for 10 when I searched out relevant articles independently, and 0 for 10 when my search was directed.

Don't you find that odd?

Ed

Post 76

Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Let me put it to you this way, Jordan ...

Let's say you were sitting around on a Sunday afternoon wondering what to do and it popped into your mind: "Heyyy, I'm going to search out some 'global warming' studies!" (and your heart starts racing).  So, you hop on your QWERTY and you start bringing up studies left and right like a champion:

"Probabilistic climate change predictions applying Bayesian model averaging."

"Association of parameter, software, and hardware variation with large-scale behavior across 57,000 climate models."

"Temperature increase of 21st century mitigation scenarios."

"Imprecise probability assessment of tipping points in the climate system."

"Global temperature responses to current emissions from the transport sectors."

"The proportionality of global warming to cumulative carbon emissions."

"Warming caused by cumulative carbon emissions towards the trillionth tonne."

"Stochastic contributions to global temperature changes."

"Why is climate sensitivity so unpredictable?"

"Recent climate observations compared to projections."

At some point, you stop and say: "Okay, now let's see what these studies have to say about their common dependent variable  -- the Earth's actual temperature!" (and your curiosity is peaked). Then, to your dismay, you get the beginning of a long set of failures -- because no one (not just anyone, but professional scientists), because no one wants to talk about the value of the dependent variable.


Or maybe this might strike your fancy more ...

Let's say that you were sitting around on a Sunday afternoon wondering what to do and it popped into your mind: "Heyyy, I'm going to search out some of the 'legal precedents' for Roe v. Wade!" (and your heart starts racing). So, you hop on Find-Law.com (or whatever you use) and you start bringing up related cases left and right like a champion. At some point, you stop and say: "Okay, now let's have a look at the rulings for these cases!" (and your curiosity is peaked). Then, to your dismay, you get the beginning of a long set of failures -- because no one (not just anyone, but legal professionals), because no one wants to talk about the actual court rulings in any of these cases.

Instead, all you get is a long list of opinions. Wouldn't you find that odd?

Ed


Post 77

Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Have you looked at the supplementary information (SI) for these studies? That's where lots of the raw data hide, probably where you'll find the temperatures. Or maybe not. I don't know. I don't see this as a big deal. Are you taking this as evidence of an error or conspiracy?

Also just read an interesting blog entry on realclimate about this issue.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 7/14, 10:45am)


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Post 78

Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 10:46amSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

"As for climate change indices, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "'the' global temperature.""

That is exactly my point. Does the G8?

"Do you mean average surface temperature?"

Let's say you do. Let's assume that we are talking about 'average surface temperature.'

Average weighted how? By 'area that has that temperature?' How integrated? From point data, station observations? What 'area' is applied to each point measurement? Then...how extrapolated from single point ice core data, to the precision and significance claimed? (If it were remotely possible to do this, then why ever have more than a single point measurement on earth, to represent the the entire surface?)

Then, in the last half century only, 'precisely,' from integration of scene radiance? Satellite borne AVHRR does not measure 'surface temperature', it measures 'scene radiance', from which surface temperature is calculated, using a current guestimate calibration of aerosol distribution in the atmosphere that has historically been a function of latitude only and scan angle through the atmosphere. (As if; look at water vapor image, and then imagine a distribution of aerosols that was a function of latitude only, applicable over any great length of time. Fudge factors are applied to best fit bouy data, that's as good as it gets. The point is, who is any the wiser and is going to dispute such numbers so calculated?)

But ignore all that; assume it was actually possible to accurately measure 'surface temperature' accurately, and integrate that number consistantly and accurately over time and space. On what basis do we choose that definition of 'global earth temperature' over a mass averaged value, which reflects the total involved thermal mass of the complete earth atmosphere/ocean system?

By including just the surface of the planet, and by ignoring the thermal mass of the oceans, run an estimate of your own and inform yourself of what total % of the thermal mass of the earth atmospheric/ocean system is this 'surface' definition of 'global temperature' representative of? (It is, at the very least, of order 1:1000) There is an assumption being made -- an assumption based purely on practicality -- that this definition of 'surface temperature' is an accurate representation of the complete thermal mass. To do so, it must assume that the worldwide ocean thermocline distribution is a constant over time, and the evidence suggests otherwise; there is not only a current large uncertainty in the evaluation of the present thermocline distribution, a snapshot of 'now', but an also large uncertainty in the constancy of that snapshot over time. The resulting total uncertainty in mass averaged temperature is so great that it vastly overwhelms the significance of the 'surface temperature' numbers being claimed, as it must, because the surface temperate represents only a tiny fraction of the thermal mass of the entire earth atmosphere-ocean system.

I did not make up the term 'thermocline uncertainty.' To see hundreds of references for this thorny fact of life, google "thermocline uncertainty."

We are rationalizing away 99.9% of the thermal mass of the earth atmosphere/ocean system when we base our politics on a poorly averaged determination of something called 'surface temperature.'

This is especially curious, when the physics of the situation would inform us that 'surface temperature' would be most sensitive to solar loading, whereas mid altitude atmospheric temperature would be most sensitive to greenhouse effect. (In what tail wagging the dog scenario does the thermal mass of our thin, whispy atmosphere control the thermal mass of the earth or ocean system? Which is what you would have to believe, to think that the resulting temperature at the surface was in in any way uniquely driven by or proportional to the temperature changes at 10km.)

And, by temperature changes at 10km, I'm referring to the temperature changes that have not been observed in modern times, with either weather balloon or satellite sounder data observations.

We're angsting over greenhouse gasses, aren't we? You know, the 'blanketing' effect that traps radiant heat in our atmosphere, that would show up most strongly at about 10km in the atmosphere(if it were happening?)

If, as asserted elsewhere, the absolute temperature isn't important, only 'temperature changes', in that single 'the' global temperature, it still matters how that number is determined. M x Cp x (delta-T)? delta-T of what T, how measured and weighted? What constant M? What constant Cp? How integrated over the entire earth atmosphere-ocean system?

And if just the integration of (T dA)/Area, then ... see above. On what basis to we ignore 99.9% of the thermal mass of the earth's atmosphere-ocean system, and drone on about 'surface temperature'?

Or, for the purposes of political science, do the actual physical details matter in the least? We have to throw enough scientific sounding bullshit around to scare the scareable, and if it keeps the funding coming for 'working climate scientists', they can snicker over it and keep the gig going.

Because, in most discussions with the public, they don't even feel the need to define the term; they throw out the term 'the global temperature', and that is sufficient for most caring green hollywood jewelry designers, florists, and so on.

Why, everyone knows what 'temperature' is. Even Al Gore.

regards,
Fred





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Post 79

Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 11:15amSanction this postReply
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Jordon:

Let's say you have access to 4km AVHRR data of the entire globe, scanned from a satellite borne instrument.

What does that mean? It means, that at the satellite subpoint, the scanwise resolution of your AVHRR sample represents 4km, and the 'vertical' resultion is approx the same. Not so at the extreme edges, because of the curvature of the earth, but those are details, the folks dealing with the data wrestle with the physical limitations.

But the point is, although you have millions of these samples, day in and day out for decades now, each one is a single radiance value that represents an approx. 4km by 4km chunk of the earth. That chunk might be, a uniform desert, that chunk might be, a relatively unform(or not)body of water, that chunk might be an urban area. What 'the temperature' is reported for each of those 4kmx4km chunks? None. AVHRR doesn't measure temperature, it measures 'scene radiance,' and that scene includes the atmosphere between the surface and the scanning instrument in orbit. Do you assume a perfect black body radiosity for all the surface elements in your scene? How to you convert radiance to 'temperature?'

Imagine walking around a 4km x 4km region of an urban area with an NBS traceable calibrated RTD, or some other precise means of measuring 'the' temperature at some scale. Would 'the' temperature of every surface in that 4kmx4km region be the same? Then, what 'the' temperature informs 'the' single scene radiance value reported for that 4kmx4km AVHRR sample? Look over your head, because that scene radiance is impacted by the atmosphere above your ahead, between the surface and the satellite.

Then, over water? Over vegetation? Over desert? Are we measuring the surface temperature of grass, or dirt below the grass, or aerosols in the air above the grass? No. We are measuring 'scene radiance', with an equivalent 4kmx4km subpoint aperture, and then cooking a 'temperature' out of all that.

And, that is as complete and precise as it gets.

Now, compare that with 'point data' measurements from the 1800s.

On what basis are you or anyone going to 'adjust' the reported 'surface temperature' numbers?

I'll tell you how; with a lot of hand waving. Close enough.

And, if there is a funding bias in our political system to exercise calamity out of those 'adjustments,' you and I know damn well what is coming out of the tribe.

As in, gems just like 'We've assumed a small warm bias in station data readings from the 1800s; the numbers have been adjusted down to reflect that bias.'

regards,
Fred

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