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Saturday, July 4, 2009 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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This is a response to Jay Abbott's Post #88 in the thread "Is Taxation an Initiation of Force?" I am starting a new thread on global warming instead of leaving it tacked on at the end of the thread on taxation.

Jay wrote,
There is clear evidence that industries do contribute to higher volumes of CO2 in the atmosphere, and that higher concentrations can eventually create a warming trend. There is equally clear evidence that such trends have occurred in cycles in the past, without any contribution by industries. Certainly, as you say, Dr. Soon's views should not be dismissed or taken lightly. However, also, Dr. Soon's views should be scientifically corroborated.
And you think they haven't been?? Are you serious? Did you read his credentials as a scientist?

If you want corroboration, Dr. Soon is happy to provide it. Consider, for example, the climate in Salt Lake City, Utah. During the winter, CO2 levels are significantly elevated, because plants are inactive in soaking up CO2 emissions from cars, factories, winter heating by natural gas, etc. Those winter emissions are also dramatically higher than they were 50 to 100 years ago. Therefore, if higher CO2 levels are a cause of rising temperatures, then one should expect the winter temperatures to be noticeably higher as well. Yet a chart of winter temperatures around Salt Lake City from 1881 to 2008 shows no evidence of a winter warming trend even within the last decade.

Now it is true that IPCC scientists have noted a close correlation between an increase in CO2 and an increase in the arctic surface air temperature during the last 40 years. The correlation suggests that CO2 is causing the increase in temperature. But if you extend the record further back to include the 130 years of recorded history, a different picture emerges. There is a dramatic spike in warming from the 1920s to the 1940s, but no spike in CO2; there is also a drop in temperature -- a cooling trend from the 1940s to the 1970s -- even as CO2 is rising; all of which tells us, contrary to the IPCC report, that CO2 is not causing the rise in arctic temperatures. What then is?

Well, if you look at the solar irradiant history itself over the last 130 years, you find that it correlates much better with the temperature record than CO2 does. Solar radiation can explain not only the warming trend over the most recent 40 years, but also the cooling from the 1940s to the 1970s as well as the very large warming of the arctic from the 1920s to the 1940s. Solar radiation appears to be a far better predictor of arctic temperature change than are CO2 concentrations.

The IPCC has disputed solar radiation as the cause of the arctic temperature variations, on the grounds that the net forcing by CO2 is 1.7 Watts/m2, whereas the net forcing of solar radiation is only 0.2 Watts/m2. Although Dr. Soon says that, as a solar astrophysicist, he does not agree with the value of the sun's net radiant forcing as decided by the IPCC, he states that even if one accepts the IPCC's value, it still doesn't support their conclusion, because it is not the net forcings – the net difference between the solar radiation and the CO2 concentration – but the overall magnitude of the forcing that is important in the questions of climate and weather change. He observes that the change in the sun’s forcing results from the difference of a baseline that is at least a factor of 10 greater than the overall forcing of CO2, which (even if one accepts the IPCC's figures) is 341 Watts/m2 for the sun versus 32 Watts/m2 for CO2.

His point is that one must consider both the baseline and the baseline plus the changed conditions as inseparable factors in weather and climate. One cannot simply pick and choose by looking only at the net difference in the rate of forcings, since one must know the key meteorological and climatic processes that determine the baseline climatology before knowing how climate varies and changes.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 7/04, 3:19pm)


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Post 1

Saturday, July 4, 2009 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
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Some discussion points and further reading:

An online search reveals the title of an interesting study:
"Climate change policy: IPCC consensus is not enough."
Terradas J, Peñuelas J. Ambio. 2008 Jun;37(4):321-2.


It probably says that we shouldn't act on the policy advice of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) -- i.e., we shouldn't make any big cuts in CO2 emissions. Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to procure a full-text or even an abstract, so that's just my speculation.

Also, check out the poor reasoning skills of this "professional" anti-industrialist:

In the four years since my original review (Keller[25]; hereafter referred to as CFK03), research has clarified and strengthened our understanding of how humans are warming the planet. ...

The big news since CFK03 is the first of these, the collapse of the climate critics' last real bastion, namely that satellites and radiosondes show no significant warming in the past quarter century. Figuratively speaking, this was the center pole that held up the critics' entire "tent." Their argument was that, if there had been little warming in the past 25 years or so, then what warming was observed would have been within the range of natural variations with solar forcing as the major player. Further, the models would have been shown to be unreliable since they were predicting warming that was not happening.

From:
[abstract] Keller CF. Global warming 2007. An update to global warming: the balance of evidence and its policy implications. ScientificWorldJournal. 2007 Mar 9;7:381-99.

Keller flat-out assumes that humans are warming the planet. Even the IPCC doesn't do that! Instead, it communicates uncertainty -- as described by a 2009 article entitled:

"Improving communication of uncertainty in the reports of the intergovernmental panel on climate change."
 Budescu DV, Broomell S, Por HH. Psychol Sci. 2009 Mar;20(3):299-308.

That's Keller's first thinking error. Keller also goes on to create a straw man argument against "climate critics" in general.

The notion that the globe has been warming for the past 25 years or so is not controversial. Keller tries to make it a point about the level of recent warming. This is a red herring. The actual issue does not involve the warming or the level of warming, but the proportion of warming that is due to man's activities. The warming itself is not the "center pole" of these critics' "entire tent." It never was. The center pole, what it is that all policy should hinge on, is to uncover the proportion of warming due to man, the effects of warming on man, and the cost of change versus 'business-as-usual.'

Keller doesn't see -- or willfully ignores -- this full context. Also, here is a meaty part of the foreward to Lomborg's 2008 book Cool It which focuses on the media (informal debate), the applied science (or application of science), and the policy surrounding global warming:

page xiv-xvi:
You have undoubtedly read the story about a breakup of a massive glacier in the Antarctic, supposedly showing the ever-increasing effects of global warming. Yet we don't hear that the area was ice-free, possibly just some 400 years ago, without the help of global warming. We don't hear that the Wilkins glacier makes up less than 0.01% of Antarctica. And we don't hear the inconvenient fact that the Antarctic is experiencing record sea ice coverage since satellite measurements began.

While we all heard Al Gore talking about the dramatic hurricane years of 2004 and 2005, we've heard almost nothing about the complete absence of hurricane damage in 2006 and 2007. ...

We are constantly presented with the stories underlining how temperatures are soaring, but over the past year, when temperatures worldwide have plummeted, we've seen the single fastest temperature change every[sic] recorded, either up or down. Yet, this rarely gets mentioned, although stories abound. In January, Hong Kong was gripped with the second longest cold spell since 1885. ... Snow fell on Baghdad for the first time in living memory.

... almost all politicians in most nations are scuffling to promise ever stricter CO2 cuts. This is evident also in the United States, where, as of this writing, all three major presidential candidates have set forward elaborate promises to deliver significant carbon reductions till[sic] by 2050. However, there is very little information on both the efficiency of such policies (how much less warming will we see?) and their costs (how many billions of dollars will it cost?). And for good reason. As you see on page 132 of this book, Al Gore's proposal for a $140 carbon tax would hike gas prices by $1.25 per gallon, cut the U.S. emissions by half in 2015, yet have an almost immeasurable impact on temperatures--decreasing the average temperature in 2100 by 0.2 [degrees] F. And the cost would be a dramatic $160 billion annually for the rest of the century.


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/04, 5:53pm)


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Post 2

Sunday, July 5, 2009 - 3:06pmSanction this postReply
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"If you want corroboration, Dr. Soon is happy to provide it. Consider, for example, the climate in Salt Lake City, Utah. During the winter, CO2 levels are significantly elevated, because plants are inactive in soaking up CO2 emissions from cars, factories, winter heating by natural gas, etc. Those winter emissions are also dramatically higher than they were 50 to 100 years ago. Therefore, if higher CO2 levels are a cause of rising temperatures, then one should expect the winter temperatures to be noticeably higher as well. Yet a chart of winter temperatures around Salt Lake City from 1881 to 2008 shows no evidence of a winter warming trend even within the last decade."

That's very bad scientific reasoning. The atmosphere moves and mixes very rapidly. Inversions such as that which cause L.A. smog are rare, and if Salt Lake City's air stayed in one place it would rapidly sour and it CO2 levels would be quite a bit higher. The temperature at Salt Lake City is determined largely by the continental weather patterns and local cloud cover. The effect of CO2 locally is minimal to immesurable - the effect of CO2 is global, causing the entire atmosphere to retain heat better. The mistake here would be analogous to saying that if small injections of male hormone have an effect, then why doesn't the injection site grow a beard?

Now of course, the total effect of man made CO2 globally is minimal, man contributes what, 1% of CO2? And variation of solar radiation alone effects the temperature in both directions much more than CO2. The bottom line is that the effect of CO2 alone is small, and man's contribution to CO2 is minimal. The only reason people scream about CO2 is because man does produce it, and therefore it can be used to cause guilt. If the greens could blame sunspots on man they would.

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Post 3

Sunday, July 5, 2009 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Good points.

CO2 is about 4% of all greenhouse gases (water vapor is the biggest proportionate GHG). And man's emissions of CO2 amount to about 4% of the atmospheric CO2. So that's 4% of 4%, or about 0.16%.

And that's not even factoring in what proportion GHGs have in driving temperature change. Sunspot activity might account for over 50% of the variation in global mean temperature. Let's say that GHGs account for 40% of the change. Then we'd get 4% of 4% of 40%, or 0.064%. Man's CO2 emissions would then account for less than one-tenth of 1% of the variation in global mean temperature.

Another way to say this is that natural drivers (e..g., sunspot activity) make up over 99.9% of the variation in global mean temperature.

And another reason to blame fossil fuels -- besides the easy unearned guilt folks will accept -- is if you have stock in renewable energy, but are looking for a coercive monopoly in order to make unearned profit for yourself (because renewables can't compete in a free market). I'm willing to bet that Al Gore -- and Obama, for that matter -- has personal or impersonal (i.e., hidden) investments in things like solar panels.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/05, 4:01pm)


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Post 4

Sunday, July 5, 2009 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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... And notice how even if you assign 90% of all the temperature change as being due to changes in GHGs, you still cannot get man's contribution to global warming to be above one-fifth of 1%. Under this generous assumption, natural drivers would still account for over 99.8% of the temperature changes on Earth. Man's effects? Less than 0.2%.

Ed


Post 5

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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Ed & Ted,

All very good points.

Yes, Salt Lake City is too small an area to make any legitimate GW conclusions about.

By corroboration of Dr. Soon's theories, I meant from other scientific studies.

Ed, do we know if anyone has published any significant studies of solar forces upon GW (I'll look this up later today, but if you have any in your pocket...?).

Playing upon people's false sense of guilt to manipulate markets is certainly a viable explanation for the political push to destroy current successful industries. I do believe though that there is an equal portion of just plain ignorance.

jt

Post 6

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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One significant factor is often overlooked in terms of Global Warming and that is how the actual driver of the warming of the planet works: the Sun. One thing seems very strange as of late and that is the Sun has been quiet (very few sunspots) when it should be according to record ramping up for another high sunspot cycle. And it seems also quite strange how this activity (the lulls in sunspot activity) seem to correlate with cooling trends over the last few hundred years (during the "Little Ice Age" there was a solar minimum I believe). I'm not going to Jedi handwave all the studies where there's evidence of temperature change and what not, but I can't but be perturbed by this pattern of sunspot activity versus temperature trends. And I think it's troubling that Global Warming theorists are not taking this pattern seriously.

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Post 7

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Water vapor is by far the most dominant 'greenhouse' gas; how can CO2, much less, man made CO2, possibly dominate water vapor as a controlling greenhouse gas? The silly arguments you see on the in-ter-net about WV being a forced-feedback' of CO2 is nonsense. If they were anything near true, then the first perturbation of CO2 would result in an immediate out of control run away greenhouse atmosphere. There have been massive perturbations of both CO2 and water vapor, and they have never resulted in runaway scenarios, indicating that there is a net negative feedback, not positive feedback, associated with perturbations of either. Every indication is that our thin, wispy atmosphere is highly buffered and tolerant of perturbations in both CO2 and water vapor, probably via the direct feedback mechanism of albedo, which has a 1:1 impact on solar load balancing, not an indirect impact. Solar loading and albedo(which is why particulate emissions are impactful)are the major drivers of atmospheric temperature, not 'CO2.' It's not even close.

To ignore all that, they just purely have to make stuff up about mysterious 'forcing' scenarios.

It never has in the past, there has never been any record of this, and the reasons are obvious. We live in a thin, wispy atmosphere, totally dominated by our massive oceans. The gaseous portion of our atmosphere is totally buffered and driven by our massive oceans, and both are driven by the sun.

CO2 is an effect, not a cause.

The very mid-altitude temperature signature predicted by their own tweaked models does not appear in either weather balloon or weather satellite sounder data.

Their evidence does not exist in their own climate data.

Their thesis of man made climate change is disproved by every piece of observational science, including NASA's observation of shrinking polar caps on Mars, screamingly suggesting that any local trends are fully solar driven.

This is political abuse of science, nothing more. It is and always has been pure nonsense.

Ironically, an idiot idea that was assisted in birth by Margaret Thatcher's politicization of science in the UK, trying to beat the miners over the head with excuses to go nuclear in Britain.

Notice clearly that in recent times, the label has shifted from 'man made global warming' to simply 'climate change.'

Next stop on the way to insanity: "Weather we don't like."








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Monday, July 6, 2009 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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The "weather we don't like" trend. Good, Fred!

I like that. Someone should send it in to Saturday Night Live, and they'd write a whole skit around it.

jt

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Post 9

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Hard to know where to start here. Science explains how human activity affects global warming despite water vapor being the biggest factor in the greenhouse effect. Here's one debunking it as a myth. Here's another. And science explains that solar activity cannot account for the warming trends. Here's one article debunking the solar-warming claim as a myth. Here's another

Jordan


Post 10

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote (to Jay), "If you want corroboration, Dr. Soon is happy to provide it. Consider, for example, the climate in Salt Lake City, Utah. During the winter, CO2 levels are significantly elevated, because plants are inactive in soaking up CO2 emissions from cars, factories, winter heating by natural gas, etc. Those winter emissions are also dramatically higher than they were 50 to 100 years ago. Therefore, if higher CO2 levels are a cause of rising temperatures, then one should expect the winter temperatures to be noticeably higher as well. Yet a chart of winter temperatures around Salt Lake City from 1881 to 2008 shows no evidence of a winter warming trend even within the last decade."

Ted replied,
That's very bad scientific reasoning. The atmosphere moves and mixes very rapidly. Inversions such as that which cause L.A. smog are rare, and if Salt Lake City's air stayed in one place it would rapidly sour and it CO2 levels would be quite a bit higher. The temperature at Salt Lake City is determined largely by the continental weather patterns and local cloud cover. The effect of CO2 locally is minimal to immesurable - the effect of CO2 is global, causing the entire atmosphere to retain heat better. The mistake here would be analogous to saying that if small injections of male hormone have an effect, then why doesn't the injection site grow a beard?
The point that I neglected to mention, which I should have done (my apologies), is that Salt Lake City is an "urban CO2 dome," so it does have temperature inversion layers that hold the CO2 in place. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect an increase in winter temperatures over the last century owing to the dramatic increase in winter CO2, if, according to the standard theory, CO2 does have a warming effect. That there is a much higher level of CO2 in Salt Lake City during the winter is well documented. This is certainly not a conclusive argument against the conventional view of CO2 as a driver of climate change, nor did Dr. Soon intend it to be, but it is one small additional piece of evidence calling it into question.

Jay added, "By corroboration of Dr. Soon's theories, I meant from other scientific studies." Well, the comparisons he cites between arctic temperatures, CO2 concentrations and solar radiation over the past 130 years are all part of the public record.

- Bill

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Monday, July 6, 2009 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Regarding your Post #9, did you bother to read the replies to the articles you referenced? "Debunk," my ass! Also, what is your answer to the correlation of solar radiation to arctic temperature, contra the IPCC, that I mentioned in a previous post?

You have a habit in your replies of simply ignoring what other people say in the posts to which you're responding. Come on! Address the arguments that have already been made instead of reflexively introducing new ones.

- Bill

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Monday, July 6, 2009 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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He seems to be a true believer - so good luck...

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Post 13

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

Hard to know where to start here.


You can start by presenting the science yourself for others here to scrutinize rather than posting up a bunch of links. Put it into your own words first, then post a link as a citation if needed.

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Post 14

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you, John. Thank you. You said what needed to be said. I hate it when people simply post links instead of actually presenting the argument themselves. There is plenty of stuff on the internet. We could sit here and post links all day long in response to posts with other links, which are in turn a response to posts with still other links, etc. That, I submit, is not a substitute for a discussion.

- Bill

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Monday, July 6, 2009 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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I'm a truth believer, Robert. There's a difference. ;)

I have no interest in re-inventing the wheel, John. It's equivalent to someone wanting from you a through exposition of rational self-interest. There comes a point where you might want to just say, "good grief read Rand, already!"

I'm on a time-crunch and didn't see the need to dig into discussers' claims, Bill, when others do it elsewhere more than adequately. But you asked that I respond to specific claim, so again, time pending, I'll get to it.

Jordan

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Monday, July 6, 2009 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

I have no interest in re-inventing the wheel, John.


Then I can only conclude you don't have any sincere interest in having a fruitful discussion about anthropogenic global warming.

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Monday, July 6, 2009 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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John,

I'm just pressed for time. That's all. I meant no offense. Bill wants to talk about arctic temperatures and whether CO2 or solar radiation is a determinative factor. I'll probably cook something up later today.

Jordan


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Post 18

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Although going through links may be time consuming, I welcome links - particularly on subjects such as this (dependent entirely on the science) - because most representations of fact offered in this discussion (including my own) otherwise essentially have no more weight than hearsay.

I daresay there is probably not an expert among us.

This doesn't mean discussion is useless. On a topic like this, though, it is too easy to get mired in the handpicking of facts. An entire discussion could be waged here on the validity of just one factoid - and there are more than dozens of representations (facts?) that could be discussed.

The same as where discussions between two people using different definitions for the same word - goes nowhere fast. This type debate can easily get tied into a knot.

jt

Post 19

Monday, July 6, 2009 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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I've got a moment here to talk about temperature and its link to the sun versus CO2. First, it would help if someone would link to Soon's claims actually at issue. I'm not entirely sure with solar-temperature claims he's making and which CO2-temperature claims he's attacking. In 2004, Paul Damon noted errors in charting solar cycles lengths, which undermines key correlations between sun rays and recent temperature trends, but maybe Soon didn't rely on this? And here's a relevant excerpt from one source from 2003 that outlines some criticisms of Soon's then claims, but perhaps Soon has responded to these claims as of late?
Climate model simulations cannot explain the anomalous late 20th century warmth without taking into account the contributions of human activities, the authors say. They make three major points regarding Soon and Baliunas's recent assertions challenging these findings.

First, in using proxy records to draw inferences about past climate, it is essential to assess their actual sensitivity to temperature variability. In particular, the authors say, Soon and Baliunas misuse proxy data reflective of changes in moisture or drought, rather than temperature, in their analysis.

Second, it is essential to distinguish between regional temperature anomalies and hemispheric mean temperature, which must represent an average of estimates over a sufficiently large number of distinct regions. For example, Mann and his co- authors say, the concepts of a "Little Ice Age" and "Medieval Warm Period" arose from the Eurocentric origins of historic climatology. The specific periods of coldness and warmth differed from region to region and as compared with data for the northern hemisphere as a whole.

Third, according to Mann and his colleagues, it is essential to define carefully the modern base period with which past climate is to be compared and to identify and quantify uncertainties. For example, they say, the most recent report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) carefully compares data for recent decades with reconstructions of past temperatures, taking into account the uncertainties in those reconstructions. IPCC concluded that late 20th century warmth in the northern hemisphere likely exceeded that of any time in the past millennium. The method used by Soon and Baliunas, they say, considers mean conditions for the entire 20th century as the base period and determines past temperatures from proxy evidence not capable of resolving trends on a decadal basis. It is therefore, they say, of limited value in determining whether recent warming in anomalous in a long term and large scale context.

American Geophysical News, 2003
Also, I remember reading this recent article about the cloud coverage variance due to the sun is not significant enough to account for recent temperature trends. Not sure if Soon cares about cloud coverage, though. So I'm not sure any of this is on point.

Jordan


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