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Post 80

Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Teresa, exactly what I asked for, though I can't say it cleared up my picture any...

I have a very mixed evaluation of Beck.  This interview highlights why.  On the one hand, Beck is trying to look at the issue from a fundamental perspective.  He is trying to be principled, and should be praised for this at least.  He rightly cherishes the principle that people choose their government.

Yet he stops there, forgetting or neglecting more fundamental questions.  His arguments are commonly populist in nature, so he often neglects fundamentals at their more abstract.  Worse, he seems to buy into and promote the idea that we are a democracy, and to that end seems to think of constitutional rights as merely what the people want them to be.

His argument is essentially people have the legal right to violate others' moral rights, and this is true.  But his lack of outrage or acknowledgement of the defeat of the moral right of marriage is disturbing.


Post 81

Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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I am not "hyperfocusing" Ed, unless by hyperfocusing you mean taking you at your own words. This is a philosophical forum and you made an explicitly philosophical claim. You, not I, are the one who said "this definition may help you understand what 'progressive' means: a neocon is a progressive republican." If you want to rephrase that, go ahead. But words have meanings and that string of words is false.

Post 82

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 3:35amSanction this postReply
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Now that you bring it up, Beck consistently avoids discussing specific law, and focuses more on trends, outlook, and history. I personally don't have a problem with that method.

Post 83

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

If you can't see that, in politics, Progressives want to advance "liberalism" and "democracy" as well as the broad, liberal-defined notion of "human rights" -- and that, in politics, NeoCons want to advance "liberalism" and "democracy" as well as the broad, liberal-defined notion of "human rights" ...

And if you can't see that, in economics, Progressives are willing to interfere in the market for overriding social purposes -- and that, in economics, NeoCons are willing to interfere in the market for overriding social purposes ...

If you cannot see this harmony across the full spectrum of highly-relevant beliefs (from politics to economics), then I have nothing further to add. It is before your very eyes and you refuse to see it.

Fine then, don't (if you don't want to).

Ed

Post 84

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Ed, it's not a question of "if I can't see." It's a question of does the word "definition" have a meaning. I hold that it does. I hold that definitions by non-essentials are invalid, and that if there is a clear and relevant counter-example to a proposed definition then the definition is wrong.

A progressive is necessarily a social statist, regardless of his foreign policy, and a Neocon is necessarily a foreign policy hawk regardless of his domestic policy.

Nelson Rockefeller, for example, was a progressive Republican, but in no way was he a neocon.

You are simply being historically incorrect based on your attachment to a sloppy rationalistic argument. I haven't denied that these categories can overlap. You can't point to my having done so. But your definition, which you won't even acknowledge, is false.

Do you or do you not still insist that the definition of a neocon is a progressive Republican?

Post 85

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

As I so often end up doing, I must insist that I'm right.

It all comes from what you have to differentiate from in order to come up with a NeoCon. As it turns out, you have got to differentiate a neoconservative from ... [yep, you guessed it!] a conservative. Now, if you don't do this basic thing -- i.e., if you start midstream with the floating abstraction that NeoCons are hawks before anything else -- then you go awry. Then you end up with a definition-by-nonessentials (the very thing you're accusing me of).

The correct method of arriving at the concept of NeoCon, then, is to point at what makes them different from conservatives. It is precisely their progressivism (e.g., the advancement of "liberalism" and of goofy anti-concepts such as "democratic capitalism", etc) which makes them different.

Ed


Post 86

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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And once again I apologize for taking you seriously.

Post 87

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
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I don't think you did, Ted (at least not in this recent debate).

You harped on about the concretes, T. Rooseveldt and N. Rockefeller, without integrating what I was saying as if you were making a counterpoint or something. That's like pointing to baby giraffes to argue with me after I said giraffes are really, really tall animals.

That's not taking serious what I have continually said here.

Ed


Post 88

Friday, February 19, 2010 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
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Probably futile, but here we go—at least you agree with the part where I said, “I really shouldn’t do this” though probably not for the same reason.

          As to who is or is not an “O”bjectivist, and specifically as to whether I am; I guess time will tell.  I have many disagreements with Miss Rand, many of which I will get around to arguing about.  I am, however, a little “o” objectivist; reality is the final arbiter.  Also, and in the same vein, I am a little p progressive (advocate for progress towards civility).  If I were to call my philosophy anything it would be Prometheism, because as Ayn said, “realism” was already taken by the enemy.  But at least I know exactly where my differences with Objectivism are.

          As an example, consider the following metaphysical subject.

          What is the nature of thingness?  Objectivism/Ayn has a great deal to say about what the nature of this thing is, vs., what that thing is, (identity) but nothing on the nature of thingness qua thingness (seems to be alright with leaving that to science).  Now it seems to me that before you can Identify what a thing is, you need to decide what you mean by thing. 

          As such--.

          A thing is that which tends to conserve its constituency to itself (temporally).  A thing is, how/ in what manner it conserves its constituency.  This holds true from the smallest Particle to the universe as a whole (see physics) . It holds true for philosophies (see the hierarchy).  It holds true for concepts in there method of reification (see the opening to I.O.E.in my fist post). It holds true for everything, the concrete, and the abstract.  To be anything, is to be made up of something, and what that thing is will be determined by how those somethings are arranged, be they particles, strings, precepts, units, citizens. Quite literally objective if you ask me.

          You discuss an impression of Beck, in your second point, as being dishonest at a deep level (would do anything to further his employer's goals) - but that is put out there as an unsupported assertion. I'm not seeing any of the facts of reality that would support that.  Actually I said His/his employers’ goals, but o.k. one example of his hypocrisy then on to something that is actually interesting.  Now, without having to actually look at any of his work( ick), but knowing that he just wouldn’t be able to help himself—what was Glens’ position on criticizing the president while he was abroad during the Bush administration?  And during the Oboma administration?  You can go back and look at his shows during the periods when the president has been abroad if you like (I personally have no desire to do so) but I would bet lots on him slamming Oboma while he was away receiving a Nobel prize. There is a reason why you don’t do that--because it hurt the nation, and that’s what I mean about throwing stones and not caring who they hit.  Nuf said? 

          From Webster’s new Twentieth Century Dictionary unabridged 1942 (my favorite of the ones I own as it comes from a time before the “usage creates meaning” school gained primacy [the extreme nominalist position])—Progressive—2. improving: aiding or inclined to aid progress; working for or endeavoring to secure advancement.  Now you might ask-- the advancement of what?   Progressionist   1.  One who maintains the doctrine that society is in a state of progress toward perfection, and that it will ultimately attain to it.  (Progress from savagery toward civility).  What the hell, lets do one more.  Liberal,  n.  1. One who advocates greater freedom of thought or action.  Boy, I can sure see how that would be at odds with Objectivism.  Of coarse all of this is in little p’s and l’s, but that is what I mean when I use the words, and I am proud that those are my stances.  Words have meanings, and just because some fools in the past claimed to be “liberals” or “progressive” doesn’t give them ownership of the word, nor do they become it’s definition or defining factor.
  What do conservatives conserve? 


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Post 89

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 5:56amSanction this postReply
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The status quo...

Post 90

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Exsactly, those conservative cavemen are still pissed over that whole fire thing.


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Post 91

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 8:00amSanction this postReply
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James,

************
Objectivism/Ayn has a great deal to say about what the nature of this thing is, vs., what that thing is, (identity) but nothing on the nature of thingness qua thingness (seems to be alright with leaving that to science). ...

A thing is that which tends to conserve its constituency to itself (temporally).
*************

You may have read, but I assure you that you misunderstand, Objectivist metaphysics. Your last sentence above is simply a re-statement of the axiom that "existence is identity." Yet you think that you are really and truly adding something to Objectivism (by re-stating it in your own words).

Ed



Post 92

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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Woops, I really should make sure to use spell check so that my licksdexia doesn’t get the better of me.  That should have read—exactly, those conservative cave men are still pissed about that whole fire thing.  And who ever heard of throwing a stick? 

            Did you hear the one about the dyslexic Satanist?  In order to show his contempt for dog, he sold his soul to Santa.


Post 93

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
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James, can you try using a standard font size and putting spaces between your paragraphs? It would make your posts less impossible to read. Thanks.

Post 94

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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Beck at CPAC 2010, part 1 of 6



Post 95

Saturday, February 20, 2010 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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He had a few good moments tonight.

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