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Post 20

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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"Would that be "self sacrifice for a noble cause"? "

WTF? It's not about nation-building, altruistic foreign endeavors, etc. They are being invaded! If you value your home and loved ones, fighting to defend them even to the death can be selfishly noble.


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Post 21

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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     Jeez, the movie's become irrelevent here. It's the 'theme' (as Robert brought up) that's now being argued about (ergo, one might's well argue about other movies like the earlier The 300 Spartans [a bit more realistically focused re 'the battle', maybe], Braveheart, Spartacus, etc.)

     The 'theme' is of, whatever one thinks of the 'group' per se, a handful of 'last stand' resistance-fighters fighting-to-their-expected-death (!) against an invasion of a tyrant whose attitude is "Accept my rule...or DIE." --- The response is NOT 'altruistic'; it's "SCREW YOU, ASSHOLE."

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 3/14, 10:43pm)


Post 22

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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     Does anyone think that the movie 300 has any present-day-intended analogic meaning in its production (its 'graphic-novel' base nwst), or, for that matter...a sociologically-interpreted symbolic meaning in its popularity?

LLAP
J:D


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Post 23

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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And personally, I think that the conservatives here who want to kill Islamo-fascists should enlist.  Even if the US Army won't take you, a private contractor will.   If you believe in killing "Islamo-fascists" then go ahead and meet them face to face, hand to hand.... and we promise to remember you..
And everyone who believes in law and order should be a police officer, and everyone who believes in representative government should be a political official, and everyone who beleives in sanitation should be garbage men, and everyone who opposes the Iraq War should take up arms against the US military with the insurgents. 


Post 24

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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MeMe: R ye Malcom hath writ: ... on which is played the THEME of the movie, the 'message' the movie is showing ...
Would that be "self sacrifice for a noble cause"? 
While the theme could be, "Democracy versus Monarchy, not in politics, but on the battlefield,"  there is no doubt that this is about self-sacrifice.
RM replied : If that is the case, what is so great about the movie?

I am not sure.  Perhaps the bloody computer generated graphics are the point.  Perhaps this is like politicizing The Dirty Dozen. Was that movie about democracy versus nazism?

By definition, all works of art have a theme.  The theme of The Dirty Dozen is "the opportunity for redemption (commuting of death sentences) offered in exchange for acts of extreme heroism."  The plot-theme is "12 soldiers who are convicted murders are offered an alternative to execution in a desperate attack on a military stronghold." That highbrow translation at once captures and misses the essence of the movie.  Three scenes define the film: when the dirty dozen outwit the other team in the war games by creative action; when the dirty dozen gels as a team in the shaving incident; and when Archer Maggott (Telly Savalas) sadistically murders the prostitute in the fortress, at once differentiating the motives for murder and therefore condeming himself as unredeemable.  But that reads too much into a war movie.  It was all about blowing up Germans.  Nothing more.  Themes and plot-themes are for other movies. 

On the other hand, the world seems to have noticed the reaction.  Google  300 Tehran and count the hits.  So, there is that -- and the original 300 Spartans was also really about the Cold War.  The United States military named a long litany of weapon systems after Greek and Roman gods and heroes: Hercules missiles ... and Atlas booster ... and Athena second stages ... and Nike missiles...  Jupiter, Mercury, Gemini, Apollo,... (The new manned moon rocket is to be named Ares. That is an ominous parallel.)  There is no doubt what the message was.  We were the Greeks; they were the Persians.  We were the Romans; they were Carthage.


Post 25

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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MEM speculated:
The new manned moon rocket is to be named Ares. That is an ominous parallel.
Oh, goddamn it, Marotta!  Ares gets its name for the long range plan for a Mars trip!  Your conspiracy theories only further erode your credibility.


Post 26

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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MEM brings up...

     ...analogic comparisons in terms of sociological-symbolic-concerns re the original The 300 Spartans.

     Much has been analyzed down such lines re the original movies of: Frankenstein, King Kong, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, The Fly, Alien, (and their sequels/re-makes, etc.) --- Great concerns, no argument!

     Now, about the same questions I already implied about THIS movie in my last post...any comments?

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 3/15, 9:31pm)


Post 27

Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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I am quite intrigued by this movie, but am loathe to see it in the theater where I might have to walk out should the violence prove too lovingly gory. Would those who have seen it describe it more as stylized violence (such as in House of Flying Daggers or Hero) or does it focus on throat slashings and disembowellings as in Hannibal? I'd hate to go see it with a guest and then have to leave due to my post-9-11 inability to stomache certain brutal images.

Thanks,

Ted

Post 28

Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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If anyone really wants to know about the "real" Sparta, there was an absolutely wonderful documentary aired a few years back on PBS.  I think that it may have originally been made by the BBS. 

The narrator was a stunningly beautiful woman, and the tight jeans were not only worth a look by themselves, but they were totally appropriate to the story as well.  Her attitude was cool, too. 

I say "Real" Sparta, because in fact the Sparta of the "300," was not at all the original Sparta of Homeric legend.  That original Sparta was utterly wiped out, along with most of the coastal Mediterranean civilization, in the "Thera" event, the volcano that blew up most of Crete, and also raised a tidal wave of perhaps 400 feet high.

However, the Homeric legends had been passed along and survived quite well.  A new group, unrelated to the Homeric Spartans, much later invaded the area of Sparta and siezed it from its inhabitants, who they enslaved, calling them "Hellots."  They were aware of the legends of Sparta, and decided to adopt them as their own history. 

From an objectivist point of view, Sparta is interesting for a number of good reasons.

First, it was a nation deliberately created according to a distinct philosophy.  Every aspect of Spartan life and custom flowed from its central premises, expressed in the Law of Lycurgis.  Some other nations have had similar experiences, of course, including the U.S., with its constitution and China under Confucianism, for example, and, of course, the various Marxist dictatorships.

Few have been as thoroughgoing about it as the Spartans, however.

As to the movie, right away there is a gross historical inacuracy, when Leonidis calls the Athenians, "boy lovers."  NOBODY took 2nd place to the Spartans in boy loving.

The part about his being taken from his mother at age seven is historically accurate, but the grief of the mother herself is probably out of character.  When a boy was taken from his mother, he immediately was assigned to a male mentor, typically a young man.  One of the first things the boy learned was how to sexually satisfy his mentor.

Sex mainly occurred between men and men or boys on the one side, and between women and women or girls, on the other.  Such sex as did go on between men and women was generally strictly for procreation.  In fact, mothers were SO harsh toward their sons that the one thing that every Spartan man feared above all else was a Spartan woman.

This was exemplified in the Spartan marriage custom of having the bride cut her hair short and wear a boy's clothing.  Otherwise the groom would be so petrified by fear that sex would have been impossible.

Sparta was a matriarchy in all but name, in fact.  The men were almost exclusively devoted to warcraft and had taken vows of poverty besides, eating in communal dining halls, for example.  Their clothing was typically rags.  The only point of vanity for the Spartan man was his body.  The Spartan men and women both spent inordinate efforts on physical perfection.  It was not unusual for them to spend the entire day at the gym.

The Spartan women were truly independent, at a time when women elsewhere in Greece were socially similar to the Afghan women under the Taliban.  They covered their bodies completely and only left the home escorted and in groups.  The Spartan women, on the other hand, wrestled nude with both men and women at the gym on a regular basis, and had no qualms about public nudity, if they happened to feel like it.

The Spartan women had it good.  They owned and managed virtually all the farms and businesses and they had a lot more sex than the guys - just with other women.  Spartan women were quoted in the PBS special as commenting upon going to bed at dawn exhausted after a night's "hard ride" on another woman.

At one point, a Spartan woman decided to win the Olympic charriot race.  Spartan women competed in the Olympics - the only Greek women allowed to do so - and not against other women, but together with the men.

So this woman buys a chariot, a team, a trainer and wins the next year's race.  Then, being a typical Spartan, she pays personally to have a monument raised of herself inscribed with a message something like, "I, Lucretia, have defeated all the puny MEN of Greece with my splendid charriot racing...."

Another Spartan woman was described by an Athenian who witnessed the encounter between her and a group of berobed Athenian women. 

The Spartan woman is wearing a halter and a very short dress, sans underwear, riding her horse bareback, of course.  The Athenian women see her and are awestruck at her beauty.  They are saying, "Oh, how lovely she is.  Look at her breasts, her hair."

To which the Spartan woman replies, "My breasts?  Why don't you look at my ASS?  (raising her dress as she speaks)  It's like oak."


Post 29

Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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An Appeal to those who have Seen & Liked this Movie...

Can you please describe the nature of the violence in this movie as I requested in post #27? I'd like to go see it on a big screen in the theater, but not if I'd have to walk out in disgust from the bloodshed.

Thanks,

Ted

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Post 30

Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, I've watched the movie (awesome). The violence and bloodshed isn't what I would classify as "gory", rather it's more like a comic-book style of violence. The battlescenes are based on what a realistic battle would look like, but with slight embellishments.

Come to think of it, "Saving Private Ryan" was far, far more gorier than 300. The battle scenes of 300 are actually more artistic than anything.


Post 31

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Warren!

Post 32

Monday, March 26, 2007 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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I agree, I didn't think the gore was all that explicit.

Post 33

Monday, March 26, 2007 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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It is strange that when I spoke to my physical therapist of some of my facial tension and how I sometimes have nightmares about physical violence (the reason I was wary of this film) he told me without prompting, "Then don't go see 300, I've been having nihtmares all weekend." I was surprised, and expressed the points made on this thread. He said the movie was indeed brilliant and the violence cartoonish or video-game-like, but that he subsequently dreamt of Iranian terrorists destroying Manhattan, and being stranded alone in the city. His son and girlfriend loved the movie, and went to see it a second time without him.

Ted

Post 34

Monday, March 26, 2007 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Ahah - the doctor is sick, sick, sick........

Post 35

Monday, March 26, 2007 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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Just saw this movie! If you see it be prepared to feel like you can take on the Persian army yourself! (Definitely feel like I need to work out more) I found this film to be very uplifting, and visually stunning.

It is very violent, but definitely done so in a visually stunning way. The themes were simple, freedom and justice againt tyranny and mysticism. It's no wonder liberal movie reviewers are trashing the film. It's just too objective for their tastes!

Also be prepared to find yourself screaming periodically around the house "For Sparta!!!! Aaaahhh Ooooo!!!! Aaaahhh Oooooo!!!!"

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Post 36

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Sad to say, the real Spartans were among the most mystical of Greek cultures...  Also, perhaps the most collectivist.  Your only purpose as a Spartan was to serve the state of Sparta.  The men spent all their time learning how to be violent and survive, because the Spartans had a nasty habit of stealing whatever they wanted from whoever happened to be available.  Also, the only way they were able to stay so focussed on physical perfection and martial arts was that they were much more dependent upon their slave population than the other Greeks, so they had to keep themselves in shape and maintain their image of invulnerability, or the slaves would revolt - which they eventually did.  Sparta was the only Greek culture to enslave other Greeks on a mass basis.

Because of the fact that they were virtually 100% gay, there was a slight problem in keeping up the birth rates as well.  In fact, it was so bad that they eventually started making promising Hellots into honorary Spartans, just to try to keep up the numbers in their army.  However, it was technology that finally defeated them.  Their last battles ended in ignomious defeat to the Athenians, who sent in unarmored bowmen who simply kept their distance and picked them off one by one.  The Spartans called them all sorts of coward and the Athenian marksmen just laughed and shot them down.


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Post 37

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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First off Phil I would request when going into details about Spartan history to please offer some references. I'm not saying you're lying only that I don't know the validity of your historical analysis here. I've never heard that Spartans were 100% gay? That is the first time I've heard of such a thing about Spartan society.

But honestly that's besides the point. One of the more annoying critiques I've been hearing a lot about this film is its historical inaccuracy. Which is nothing but a strawan critique because the film was not and never was intended to be presented as a documentary. If it was it would be on the History Channel and be quite boring. I seriously don't think the filmmakers thought there really were goat men, large monsters, and that Xerxes was 14 feet tall. To harp on the historical analysis here (which is largely from Athenian records because the Spartans did not keep historical records, and the Athenians hated Spartans, you can't consider it to be an unbiased source) solely misses the point of this film and glosses completely over all of the themes, and is just patently silly considering the fantasy elements present in the film.

The film reminds me of a Homer epoch. The Iliad and Odyssey are filled with fantasy elements but would people seriously critique the historical inaccuracies of a film adaptation of the Iliad? It's not important because the film does not try to fraud the audience into thinking they are watching an accurate representation of history. It's a heroic epoch, about men who are willing to die defending their values. A struggle between western civilization that respects reason, liberty, and logic against the barbaric hordes from the East that represent tyranny, and mysticism. Let's not look past the essentials here.


Post 38

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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> please offer some references.

I second that -- especially if you are going to go into great detail in an area which requires a lot of special knowledge. We don't know your credentials, how careful a reader you are, etc., etc.

I'd like to address the same comment to many other posters:

I / we don't know any of you personally and I certainly don't mean to accuse you (or any other poster of this, but there is a long tradition of "Crackpot Objectivist know it alls" who give long and detailed rewritings of history or are instant oracles in almost every field.

And having seen this over and over, one is simply wary of long and highly detailed posts on physics or history or any other subject which don't cohere with what those of us who are widely read have seen elsewhere.

....

[I, for example, have read a great deal about Ancient Greece, and would like to know where some of your information comes from.]



Post 39

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

If I recall, it seemed far less grisly than "Saving Private Ryan", where the gore has a point & far less so than current horror / chainsaw type movies where the gore has no point whatsoever and which I refuse to see.

And the heroism, fierceness of the Spartans was immeasurably stirring.

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