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Post 80

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Joel,

You wrote:

"[Mr. Knapp:] 'It is only when they are able to credibly invoke the spectre of 'the infidel on Muslim soil' that the other 99.999% of Muslims respond with material and moral support.'

"False. I see you trusted the Islamic propaganda. According to Islamic law, 'Muslim soil' is the whole planet earth, my friend. And that's the canonical version, not the version of an alleged extremist offshoot."

You are correct in the issue that you're speaking to -- but it's not the issue I was speaking to.

Yes, canonical Islamic doctrine does hold out the goal of dar al Islam covering the whole earth. Of course, canonical Islamic doctrine also specifies certain behaviors for Ramadan, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of Muslims don't sneak a smoke or a sandwich during daylight hours, or swill bourbon and get laid when they are visiting the "decadent west."

When I specified "credibly invoking the spectre of 'the infidel' on Muslim soil," I was not talking about the canonical definition of dar al Islam. I was talking about the countries which are, at present, substantially Muslim.

Most Muslims do not dream, day and night, of embarking on a counter-Crusade to conquer earth for Allah. They have more important things on their minds -- like, for example, living. The jihadists, of course, do envision global Islamic hegemony, but to get the 99.999% of Muslims who are not jihadists to write checks to them, hide weapons under floorboards for them, strap on explosive vests and board buses, etc., they need something a little less speculative than "hey, let's take over the world."

That thing is "look out your window -- see the guy in the chocolate chip uniform carrying an M-16? He's an American, he's an infidel, and he's in your back yard."

"[Mr. Knapp:] 'That's why, for all intents and purposes, Islamist terrorism against the US simply did not exist prior to 1993.'

"False. In example, ask Jimmy Carter and his employees in Teheran. Or ask the Lebanese Christians (did you ever hear of Bashir Gemayel?). Or ask African blacks neighboring Muslim regions (the Darfur genocidal jihad is not recent news at all). Or ask the Copts of Egypt. Or ask the Armenians."

1. The Iran embassy hostage situation was incidental to Islamism. Iran had a revolution. The US, which had sponsored the dictator whom they overthrew, gave that dictator asylum. The revolutionaries would likely have done what they did whether they were Islamists, Bolsheviks or Rotarians. Furthermore, the specific group which occupied the embassy and held its employees hostage was the Mujahadeen el Kalq -- which the US is now allied with versus the Shiite regime in Tehran.

2. Last time I looked, Lebanon was not one of the several states, nor was Bashir Gemayel an American citizen, nor was his Christian Falange Militia a branch of the US armed forces.

3. My, my, we really do need a geography refresher. Please consult a globe, locate the African continent (including Darfur and Egypt), and Armenia. Then come back to the class and let us know whether any of those places lie within the borders of the United States. Or are you asserting a canonical doctrine that the entire globe is Dar al-Hardon, land "illegally occupied by non-Americans?"

The first significant Islamist attack on US soil occurred in March, 1993 with the bombing of the World Trade Center. Prior to that, there were three categories of attacks in which Muslims attacked Americans: 1) Cases where those Americans, usually in military uniform, were in the Middle East or in countries generally characterized as Muslim; 2) Cases where Americans were caught in the Arab-Israeli crossfire; and 3) Specific incidents relating to the US conflict with Libya, which had no significant Islamist element.

"If they did not attack before is simply because they were weak. Then, oil money emboldened them."

Funny how, even though the oil money has been flowing into Arab coffers for more than half a century, the beginning of the attacks correlate exactly in time with the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia, and with Islamist warnings that their continued presence there would be considered a casus belli. William of Ockham says you're wrong.

Regards,
Tom Knapp

Post 81

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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[Mr. Knapp:] “Of course, canonical Islamic doctrine also specifies certain behaviors for Ramadan, but that doesn't mean that the vast majority of Muslims don't sneak a smoke or a sandwich during daylight hours, or swill bourbon and get laid when they are visiting the "decadent west."”

True, but essentially irrelevant. The problem we face is based in that Islam is invoked by Muslims so they can gain honorability within its community. And they do. It’s like a German invoking the Mein Kampf or Der Sturmer propaganda as a justification to bait a Jew. (Of course a Nazi could be hypocritical and, say, fell in love with a Jewess, of course.)

 

 

[Mr. Knapp:] “Most Muslims do not dream, day and night, of embarking on a counter-Crusade to conquer earth for Allah. They have more important things on their minds -- like, for example, living.”

 

Yes. As the majority of Germans and Japanese did in 1942. I am talking about Muslim ideas, not Muslim individuals.

 

 

[Mr. Knapp:] “That thing is "look out your window -- see the guy in the chocolate chip uniform carrying an M-16? He's an American, he's an infidel, and he's in your back yard."”

 

The stress should have been put in the “he’s an infidel” part. That’s the central point, as the concept of private property (implicit in “your backyard”) is not Islamic. Moreover, there are American Muslims, which BTW are very valuated by the Umma (the global community of Muslims) from a strategical point of view, for obvious reasons.

 


[Mr. Knapp:] 'That's why, for all intents and purposes, Islamist terrorism against the US simply did not exist prior to 1993.'

[Joel Català] "False. In example, ask Jimmy Carter and his employees in Teheran. Or ask the Lebanese Christians (did you ever hear of Bashir Gemayel?). Or ask African blacks neighboring Muslim regions (the Darfur genocidal jihad is not recent news at all). Or ask the Copts of Egypt. Or ask the Armenians."

[Mr. Knapp:] 1. The Iran embassy hostage situation was incidental to Islamism. Iran had a revolution.

 

Still, that was an Islamic revolution. You can’t deny that point. A point that informs us of the appeal of Islamic ideology even in a basically non-Arab country.

 


[Mr. Knapp:] 2. Last time I looked, Lebanon was not one of the several states, nor was Bashir Gemayel an American citizen, nor was his Christian Falange Militia a branch of the US armed forces.

 

Sorry, I wrote it deficiently. my point here was that the Lebanese “civil war” (in truth, another jihadist war against non-Muslims) was before 1993. Lebanon was a mainly Christian state trying to be built in base of equality before the law between Muslims and non-Muslims. That was not accepted by the Umma, and Muslims from all over the Middle East (mainly from Syria and the disputed territories controlled by Israel) flowed into Lebanon to destroy the then existing Lebanese state.

 

 

[Joel Català] "If they did not attack before is simply because they were weak. Then, oil money emboldened them."

[Mr. Knapp:] Funny how, even though the oil money has been flowing into Arab coffers for more than half a century, the beginning of the attacks correlate exactly in time with the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia, and with Islamist warnings that their continued presence there would be considered a casus belli. William of Ockham says you're wrong.

 

Of course, they waited for a strategically appropriate moment. They are not naive at all.

 

Still, the oil money is an instrumental factor.

And, still, the Islamic fascists will always resort to the Koranic verses in order to justify, in its canonic terms, the slaughter of infidels, apostates, or “bad Muslims”, both in “Muslim land” and in freer lands.

Regards,

 
Joel Català





Post 82

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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And now, Sirs, from Mr. Galloway, straigh from MEMRITV via JihadWatch:

British MP George Galloway: We Need Al-Jazeera in English to Win Hearts in the US

Galloway might as well wear the zunnar, he's got the dhimmi act down so well. "British MP George Galloway: We Need Al-Jazeera in English to Win Hearts in the US; We Need Another Abd Al-Nasser; Britain Should Pay Compensation to Palestinians; G-8 Leaders Come to Scotland for Their 'Trial,'" from MEMRITV, with thanks to EPG:

The following are excerpts from an interview with British MP George Galloway, aired by Al-Jazeera TV on June 1, 2005.
Galloway: I am speaking for tens of millions, and maybe more, around the world, who know the truth about Iraq. Who know that the real criminals are in Washington. Not in the United Nations. The real criminals are in the White House, not in the Elysee Palace. The real criminals are in the Congress, not in the anti-war movement. So I have no respect for this...
This is one of the reasons why we need Al-Jazeera in English, so that we can reach the people who, if you can reach them, you can win their hearts. They are not bad people. The American people are not bad or evil people. But they are ruled by bad people.
Source: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006553.php

Perhaps here Mr. Galloway is only pushing your Anarchist goal, Mr Knapp?

Joel Català



Post 83

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Joel,

"Perhaps here Mr. Galloway is only pushing your Anarchist goal, Mr Knapp?"

I doubt that. He's very much a statist. He's occasionally the enemy of one of my enemies, he's good when he's doing the right thing (which he occasionally does), and he's entertaining. Doesn't mean I want to put him up and feed him breakfast in bed or anything.

Tom Knapp

Post 84

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 7:11amSanction this postReply
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[Mr. Knapp:] "Doesn't mean I want to put him up and feed him breakfast in bed or anything."

No, Mr. Knapp, you spread his deceitful propaganda in this forum under the banner of an alleged "entertainment" and/or a dystopian global Anarchy.

Watch clip #697 of the MEMRITV site, Sirs. There you will see what is collaborationism with the enemies of the West.

Joel Català


Post 85

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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[Correction:]

"No, Mr. Knapp, you spread his [Mr. Galloway's] deceitful propaganda in this forum under the banner of an alleged "entertainment" and/or an utopian global Anarchy."

Joel Català



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