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Post 20

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 2:45pmSanction this postReply
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Ron Paul has, like Aristotle and Thomas Jefferson had by holding slaves, his own problems. But, like Aristotle and Thomas Jefferson, his positives outweigh his negatives.

For a quarter of a century, every elected president has worked to advance this country more and more toward statist collectivism (though some, like GHW Bush, did it much more slowly than others, like GW Bush, did). Rand said that the overriding political issue was individualism vs. statism.

Ron Paul, warts and all, has been more of a champion of individualism than any other candidate -- with the possible exception of Fred Thompson.

Let's see a comparison of highly-relevant voting records and settle this issue once and for all.

Ed


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Post 21

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 2:45pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Pilotte, go here, read it all, and follow the links.

I admit, "scumbag" was a completely inappropriate term to use against Lew Rockwell for expressing the views linked to in that entry.

However, my dilemma was that the more accurate term that I had in mind would have risked my blog being banned by the host site.


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Post 22

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I've just added more links to and citations of statements and views of Ron Paul in my lengthy blog post on the topic.

I believe the material posted below the cover photograph might prove enlightening about whether he is a true champion of individual rights -- or, rather, of what one clever critic has labeled "Confederalism."

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Post 23

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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None of the other Republican candidates take a suicidal anti-US interests approach to foreign policy. None of the other Republican candidates to my knowledge has used racially charged paranoid conspiracy theory literature to raise funds for their political careers. Ron Paul warts and all, has a moral obligation to clear at least these circumstances of the newsletters he used to make money for his political career. He also has a moral obligation to return the campaign contributions given to him by racist organizations. He has the opportunity here to explain himself, make amends, call out who the ghostwriter is and if he still has regular contact with him then he can cease his association with him, and we can move on (but that still leaves us with a suicidal foreign policy stance of isolationism) to date Ron Paul has not demonstrated the scruples he claims he has. I think we have an obligation to judge others, fairly of course, and let the judged respond, and ultimately let the marketplace of ideas decide.

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Post 24

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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LOL, "Ann Coulter."   I'm surprised you didn't through a few "neo-cons" into your one liner, Steve.

It's amusing to see all of this "disappointment" and "sadness" from Paul's supporters.    Some counter arguments would be nice, but I won't hold my breath.

Geesh, the heat gets turned up a little bit, and poof!  "Support" turns into grumbling, off hand comparisons.

Bidinotto's blog is pure gold, but clearly a lead balloon to some.  I think it's important to identify motives when confronted with something so hostile a cherished value.  What are Robert's motives? Are they simply to malign a candidate for the sake of misalignment?  What would he gain by this? Does any of this have merit, etc?

Instead of defensive, knee-jerk "blurts," how about some real thought? 


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Post 25

Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I was hoping for a side-by-side comparison of all of the Republican candidates' voting records for the top-20 most-important issues facing our nation. I didn't get that kind of helpful insight from you increasing the number of hyper-links in your blog article. So I went online to try to find such a thing without success. If anyone can help, please do.

Here are the places I've visited. There may be a Republican voting record comparison somewhere within them -- but I failed to note such a thing from a cursory examination of them:

http://www.ontheissues.org/TX/Ron_Paul.htm
[supposedly has info of every Congress member on every issue]

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/p000583/
[The Washington Post's Votes Database]

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ron_Paul
[something called "Congresspedia"]

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BC031929
[Project Vote Smart]

http://www.opencongress.org/people/show/400311_ronald_paul
["Open Congress" by Sunlight Foundation and PPF (Participatory Politics Foundation?)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul
[a Wiki on Paul's Political Positions]


Ed


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Post 26

Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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When I went here there was a Java link to a window of comparison for Bush and Kerry (2004). The comparison covered the following 8 issues (curiously, Foreign Affairs showed up at the end -- rather than alphabetically) ...

Abortion
Civil Liberties
Economy
Education
Energy/Resources
Health Coverage
National Security
Foreign Affairs

Is there anyone aware of a similar side-by-side comparison involving Ron Paul?

Ed
 


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Post 27

Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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There's a political quiz here which matches your answers to the candidates. My answers matched me up with the following candidatorial hierarchy ...

Total58% 
Social38% 
picture Duncan Hunter
Republican Representative (CA-52)

Biographical Profile  
Duncan Hunter's answers
Duncan Hunter's stances  

Total53% 
Social38% 
picture Ron Paul
Republican Representative (TX-14); Libertarian nominee for President in 1988

Biographical Profile  
Ron Paul's answers
Ron Paul's stances  

Total48% 
Social13% 
picture John Cox
Chairman of Cook County (IL) Republican Party

Biographical Profile  
John Cox's answers
John Cox's stances  

Total45% 
Social44% 
picture Rudy Giuliani
Former Mayor of New York City; Republican Candidate for 2000 Senate (NY)

Biographical Profile  
Rudy Giuliani's answers
Rudy Giuliani's stances  

Total45% 
Social31% 
picture Fred Thompson
Former Republican Senator (TN)

Biographical Profile  
Fred Thompson's answers
Fred Thompson's stances  



Solicitation of Feedback:
RoR participants, please feel free to question the wisdom of my answers, as some of the questions confused me; e.g., "illegal aliens earn citizenship" could mean that they have to earn it -- or that they get it right from the get-go from the legislation (WITHOUT earning it!)]

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/19, 2:35pm)


Post 28

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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See, I got Rep. Cynthia McKinney only because there was no question there about the right of Capitol Police to detain those without identification.  I do not even line up very well with my first choice. 


Total48% 
Social38% 
picture Ron Paul
Republican Representative (TX-14); Libertarian nominee for President in 1988

Biographical Profile  
Ron Paul's answers
Ron Paul's stances  

Total40% 
Social13% 
picture John Cox
Chairman of Cook County (IL) Republican Party

Biographical Profile  
John Cox's answers
John Cox's stances  

Total35% 
Social0% 
picture Alan Keyes
Former candidate for Senate (R, IL)

Biographical Profile  
Alan Keyes's answers
Alan Keyes's stances  

Total35% 
Social56% 
picture Cynthia McKinney
Green candidate; Former House member (D, GA)

Biographical Profile  
Cynthia McKinney's answers
Cynthia McKinney's stances  

Total35% 
Social44% 
picture Mike Gravel
Former Senator (AK)

Biographical Profile  
Mike Gravel's answers
Mike Gravel's stances  


  • I took the quiz several times and the results usually look like this:

Abortion is a woman's right
Require companies to hire more women & minorities
Sexual orientation protected by civil rights laws
Teach family values in public schools

Death penalty
Mandatory Three Strikes sentencing laws
Absolute right to gun ownership
More federal funding for health coverage
Privatize Social Security
Parents choose schools via vouchers
Replace coal & oil with alternatives
Drug use is immoral: enforce laws against it
Allow churches to provide welfare services

Make taxes more progressive
Illegal immigrants earn citizenship
Support & expand free trade

More spending on armed forces
Stricter limits on political campaign funds
The Patriot Act harms civil liberties
Replace US troops with UN in Iraq


(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/20, 11:46am)


Post 29

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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[deleted double-post]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/20, 12:38pm)


Post 30

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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When I left "blank" (a default of "no opinion") those questions which I found confusing, I got the following top-5 hierarchy ...

 Scores & Analysis

Candidate

More Information
Click on 'Social' and 'Economic' for analysis of
your answers compared to each candidate's answers.
Click on 'Answers' and 'Stances' for complete details
of the sources of each candidate's answers.
Total40% 
Social13% 
picture Duncan Hunter
Republican Representative (CA-52)
Biographical Profile  
Duncan Hunter's answers
Duncan Hunter's stances  
Total40% 
Social6% 
picture Alan Keyes
Former candidate for Senate (R, IL)
Biographical Profile  
Alan Keyes's answers
Alan Keyes's stances  
Total40% 
Social13% 
picture Ron Paul
Republican Representative (TX-14); Libertarian nominee for President in 1988
Biographical Profile  
Ron Paul's answers
Ron Paul's stances  
Total35% 
Social0% 
picture John Cox
Chairman of Cook County (IL) Republican Party
Biographical Profile  
John Cox's answers
John Cox's stances  
Total33% 
Social6% 
picture Fred Thompson
Former Republican Senator (TN)
Biographical Profile  
Fred Thompson's answers
Fred Thompson's stances  


And here are my answers ...

Individual rights
Start Here Individual Rights Domestic Issues Economic Issues Defense/International Issues
Where do you stand on these questions of individual rights?Click on the question for more information!


Abortion is a woman's right
Require companies to hire more women & minorities
Sexual orientation protected by civil rights laws
Teach family values in public schools


Domestic Issues
Start Here Individual Rights Domestic Issues Economic Issues Defense/International Issues
Where do you stand on these questions of domestic issues?

Death penalty
Mandatory Three Strikes sentencing laws
Absolute right to gun ownership
More federal funding for health coverage
Privatize Social Security
Parents choose schools via vouchers
Replace coal & oil with alternatives
Drug use is immoral: enforce laws against it
Allow churches to provide welfare services


Economic Issues
Start Here Individual Rights Domestic Issues Economic Issues Defense/International Issues
Where do you stand on these questions of economic issues?

Make taxes more progressive
Illegal immigrants earn citizenship
Support & expand free trade


Defense / International Issues
Start Here Individual Rights Domestic Issues Economic Issues Defense/International Issues
Where do you stand on these questions of defense and international issues?

More spending on armed forces
Stricter limits on political campaign funds
The Patriot Act harms civil liberties
Replace US troops with UN in Iraq


I guess I'll have to choose between Ron and Fred, when the time comes. I'm quite curious if there are any Objectivists who have different answers to any of the questions which I didn't leave "blank" (leave at the default "No Opinion" position). If so, I'd like to be able to discuss our discrepancy. Thanks.


Ed


Post 31

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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Mandatory three strike is interpreted to allow a previous misdemeanor strike to be counted as a felony if they want to put you away later on a felony.  Say, for instance, you are a writer for an Objectivist blogsite and your township says that as a business you need a license and you tell them to fuck off and they hit you with a fine and yo cave.  Strike One.  (See where this is going...)  So, it is a tool of oppression, not justice.   Another problem with three strikes is that it ups the ante on coercive violence.  If you are going down for the long count, might as well make it good.  Having two felonies now raises the bar on your third.  That is why the punishment must fit the crime.  If you hang people for stealing, then thieves kill to steal.  So, not being soft on crime, I vacilated between weakly opposed and weakly supporting.

Absolute right to gun ownership got only Mild Support from me.  Ayn Rand's point about handguns is consistent with Objectivist morality as instantiated by objective law.  The only purpose of a handgun is coercion and owning one infringes on the state monopoly in that that area.  (I know: I'm an anarchist, but this is a presidential poll, so context counts.)  So, there is that.  Also, an absolute right would mean that convicted felons would retain that right.  That's what "absolute" means. 

Also, you waffled on sexual discrimination, as did I back and forth between weakly for and weakly against.  The issue to me is whether such laws apply to the government (proper) or to private individuals (improper).  I believe in the civil service merit system.  You could be a Martian (naturalized as a US citizen, of course), but if you pass the test, you get the job. 

(I don't know where my button choices went to.  One thing is, if you click on them, they change, but apparently not permanently.  I could make you a raving statist liberal, print out the page and tell all the Objectivists we know about your real self.)


Post 32

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Mandatory three strike is interpreted to allow a previous misdemeanor strike to be counted as a felony if they want to put you away later on a felony. Say, for instance, you are a writer for an Objectivist blogsite and your township says that as a business you need a license and you tell them to fuck off and they hit you with a fine and yo cave. Strike One. (See where this is going...)


No.....I don't.

Maybe I would see where your going if say the Objectivist blogger then went on to rob a liquor store at gun point.....twice.

Absolute right to gun ownership got only Mild Support from me. Ayn Rand's point about handguns is consistent with Objectivist morality as instantiated by objective law. The only purpose of a handgun is coercion


Is self-defense the same as coercion?


(Edited by John Armaos on 1/20, 6:56pm)


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Post 33

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I agree that Ron Paul's politics are most libertarian, which means most compatible with individual rights and liberty. Dr. Paul is tops on economic issues, because he is the only candidate who has studied and understands the economics of von Mises, Rothbard, and Hayek. This is why only Paul supports a gold standard, as the cure for our destructive fiat money system; this is why Dr. Paul advocates repealing the vast burden of state programs and taxes, since he understands why free market processes would enrich all Americans, especially including those at the margins of society. And of course, only Dr, Paul advocates returning to a sane and ethical foreign policy of Don't Tread on Me and We'll Mind Our Own Business. In fact, Ron Paul is the only candidate in either party who grasps the inexorable connection between the BIG STATE and Wielding a Big State Stick abroad. He's the only candidate who is willing to state out loud that our foreign policy actually threatens the lives and rights of Americans from foreign blowback. He's the only one who is willing to state publically that US foreign adventuring is sending Americans into bankruptcy.

In contrast, Fred Thompson sneers at Dr. Paul's thoughtful and clear advocacy of a return to a gold standard and bristles at the thought of ending aggressive military adventures abroad. 

Finally, it is sad to read Robert Bidinotto's attacks on Ron Paul, which employ a blatant double standard. Robert takes great offense at border-line racial comments made under Paul's name in his Congressional newsletter 20 years ago. Robert insists that all ahould recoil in disgust and outrage from such commentary that signals (supposedly) imperfect appreciation for the implications of individualism.

But I see no expression of outrage on this site by Robert concerning the record of his favorite, Rudy Giuliani, whom Robert has characterized as (paraphrasing) representing many of the best virtues of Americans. Of course, one can set aside Giuliani's far from admirable record as Mayor, (favoring, as I seem to recall, gun control and other nanny-state interventions) on the grounds that none of the other "respectable" Republican cadidates is ideal, and so one must choose. But one ought to recall the event that launched Giuliani's political career: his thuggery as US attorney in New York, in which he wrecked the career of an innocent man and brilliant financier, Mike Miliken, whom he dragged into court on trumped up charges based on vaporous and indefineable "technicalities". Miliken served several years behind bars and paid a fine to the federal governemnt of $500 million dollars, all for the purpose of advancing Giuliani's "career".


Post 34

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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He's the only candidate who is willing to state out loud that our foreign policy actually threatens the lives and rights of Americans from foreign blowback.


The same could be said that defending the rights of Americans from foreign threats could result in blowback. This isn't a rational position and the logic internally of a fear of blowback can only mean the proper response is pacifism.

Robert takes great offense at border-line racial comments made under Paul's name in his Congressional newsletter 20 years ago.


Sorry they weren't borderline. They were outright racist.

Of course, one can set aside Giuliani's far from admirable record as Mayor, (favoring, as I seem to recall, gun control and other nanny-state interventions) on the grounds that none of the other "respectable" Republican cadidates is ideal, and so one must choose. But one ought to recall the event that launched Giuliani's political career: his thuggery as US attorney in New York, in which he wrecked the career of an innocent man and brilliant financier, Mike Miliken


I don't wish to defend Giuliani but could you provide links as source for this? I'm not aware of who Mike Miliken is or what Giuliani did to him as NYC prosecutor.

Post 35

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.mikemilken.com/biography.taf?page=controversy

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Post 36

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

... it is a tool of oppression, not justice.   Another problem with three strikes is that it ups the ante on coercive violence.  If you are going down for the long count, might as well make it good.  Having two felonies now raises the bar on your third.  That is why the punishment must fit the crime.  If you hang people for stealing, then thieves kill to steal.
Thanks for catching this, Michael. Back when I supported the 3-strike rule (earlier today!), I was mistakenly using Bill Dwyer's Utilitarian Standard for justice -- where we punish folks in order to stop crime, rather than to more simply and more literally enforce "justice" (i.e., retributive retaliation).

The only purpose of a handgun is coercion ...
See John A.'s (post 32) rebuttal to this.

Also, an absolute right would mean that convicted felons would retain that right.  That's what "absolute" means.
I'll bet it's not what the quiz-writer meant, though. I'll bet s/he meant innocents get to own guns ala` the 2nd Amendment. I agree that convicted felons shouldn't get to exercise their right to a gun, but innocent folk should get to have guns. Conceal & carry, too -- for that matter.
 Also, you waffled on sexual discrimination, as did I back and forth between weakly for and weakly against.
That question confused me. "Sexual orientation protected by civil rights laws"? What is it here that we need to protect via positive law? Are there crimes being committed (for which we'd need a new positive law)?

The issue to me is whether such laws apply to the government (proper) or to private individuals (improper).  I believe in the civil service merit system.  You could be a Martian (naturalized as a US citizen, of course), but if you pass the test, you get the job. 
Michael, would you please elaborate more on this point? It would be especially fruitful if you were to talk to me like I'm young and inexperienced regarding the concepts; because I actually don't see where you are coming from here.


Ed


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Post 37

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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The apparent "double standard" that Mark Humphrey finds in my views of Rudy Giuliani and Ron Paul is explained in this post, where I present the considerations I employ in judging candidates for political office.

I am very mindful of Giuliani's chequered history; his early persecution of Michael Milken stands as one of the worst aspects of that history. I also have read that over the past year or two, Giuliani has surrounded himself with a number of free-market and limited-government advisers, and these individuals have influenced him significantly in a much better direction on domestic issues -- as witness many of his current economic proposals. On social issues, Giuliani has always been much more "liberal" than fellow Republicans, and he's moved toward more conservative stances only recently, reluctantly, and mostly rhetorically. His heart and mind aren't in it. On national defense, he's outstanding -- by my lights, though certainly not by Mark Humphrey's.

It's largely a moot issue, however. Giuliani is fading fast, and it appears that it will take a series of heart attacks among other contenders to propel him to the nomination. Ron Paul has always been an ideological advocate, never a viable candidate. Fred Thompson is essentially a goner, too, and so, fortunately, is Huckabee. Among Republicans, that leaves McCain and Romney to duke it out for the nomination, with the winner to face either Hillary or Obama.

Facing these alternatives realistically, I'm laying in a large store of decent wine and planning to stay numb for the next four years.

Post 38

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 4:32amSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto wrote: "... Giuliani has surrounded himself with a number of free-market and limited-government advisers, and these individuals have influenced him significantly ..."
That brings up a metaphysical problem.  Is there any candidate whose ideas do not come from a coterie of "advisors"? So, rather than picking the candidate, we should pick the advisors ... or be the advisors...?

MEM: The issue to me is whether such laws apply to the government (proper) or to private individuals (improper).  I believe in the civil service merit system.  You could be a Martian (naturalized as a US citizen, of course), but if you pass the test, you get the job. 
Ed Thompson: Michael, would you please elaborate more on this point? It would be especially fruitful if you were to talk to me like I'm young and inexperienced regarding the concepts; because I actually don't see where you are coming from here.



What I mean is that at the basic level of "why" we have these anti-discrimination laws is that they apply first and foremost to the federal government itself.  Then, they apply in those areas where the federal government has jurisdiction, such as interstate commerce.  The idea that the government can just come in and tell you who to hire or rent to is a power fantasy of liberals and paranoid nightmare of conservatives.  It does not work like that.  Yes, the "intent" of the law does reflect the "national culture" (if that has meaning).  But at the workaday level, a law against discrimination on the basis of gender orientation (or whatever) would apply to government agencies -- and government contracts and federal government funding of state programs. 

The problem is that government is never "limited."  So, yes, I recognize that if we have a law like this, next thing you know, we're like Alberta where if you insult someone's feelings they can bring you in front of a commission.  

They still need grounds for doing so.  Here in America today, right now, most of these anti-discrimination laws at the state or federal levels do not apply to businesses below a certain size (five employees) or housing units of a certain kind (more than two or five apartments in a single structure).

For my own preferences, this is fine as far as government operations go.  As an Objectivist -- this being MLK Day -- I support the Dream of Dr. King that in the best world, people are judged not by irrelevant attributes but by their minds.  (".... not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character...")  But the goverment does discriminate in hiring because ultimately, after the civil service test, there is some kind of interview.  So, these anti-discrimination laws are first and foremost job descriptions for hiring managers.  So, I am sort of for them... it is the extention of those laws (inevitable with goverment) that worries me.


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Post 39

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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The merits of candidates are not worth considering except in the context of a larger plan to find a candidate that actually supports capitalism and the proper role of government as a whole. None of the current candidates is close. Without that context and that plan in mind you are simply arguing in support of, voting for, and sanctioning different means of your own death. In four years you'll find yourself slighly worse off and doing it all over again.

Ethan


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