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Post 0

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Nice cover on the magazine. Did you know that Ron Paul never voted to raise taxes?

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Post 1

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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A few years ago, a prominent libertarian (Jim Peron) in Objectivist circles was outed as a supporter of pedophilia. Some investigators in New Zealand found copies of a magazine he published on the topic, including an article in his own name.

The responses at the time were very curious. I would have expected libertarians and Objectivists to try to distance themselves from his viewpoint, or to condemn that ideas he had promoted, or to distance themselves from him. Instead, their was an outpouring of sympathy for him. He has a right to free speech, they said. This is just a witch-hunt, they said. He claims no knowledge of any of it, despite the article penned in his name, they said. That was decades ago, they offered. Age of consent laws are arbitrary(!) they began to argue...

On and on, people who had already supported him found ways to dismiss this significant information about him. They determined that there was no significant loss with having libertarian or Objectivist ideas falsely connected to child-rape.

It was shocking to me at the time for a few reasons. One, because the hatred and disgust that most people felt was for those who brought out the facts. Two, because while the issue should have been about someone promoting pedophilia, people tried to ignore that and hide behind the freedom of speech principle. And three, because when these didn't seem enough, people actually started making arguments to try to make it seem more respectable, starting with age of consent laws being arbitrary.

After reading some of the controversy on Ron Paul, which I don't think is nearly as bad, I noticed similar behavior. Plenty of excuse making, blaming those who brought the facts to light, and even arguments to try to justify the comments in the newsletters.

The biggest excuse, of course, is that Ron Paul says he didn't write them or know anything about them, despite his name on the banners. But there are other excuses. It was a different time. It was decades ago and is old news. They were probably just jokes and people are taking them too seriously. He's already "dealt" with this subject years ago. He's not promoting them now, so what's the problem? That sort of thing.

The smearing also start. The New Republic? They're obviously ideologically driven. You can't trust anything they say. They have an agenda! How dare they make a big deal out of something that happened so long ago! The author is not trustworthy!

And the arguments. Things like racism is not that big of a problem, and people are just hyper sensitive.

Many of these appear to be knee-jerk reactions. As soon as their hero is attacked, they rush in to deny or dismiss it all without even caring what the facts are, or whether it's true. Evidence doesn't matter. Without even looking into the matter, they're willing to disregard everything and often blame those who brought it up.

When I brought up the topic to one Ron Paul supporter, who hadn't heard, he didn't bother reading the original article before claiming it was obviously just a smear job. His response was "Whatever!".

Since this situation gave me such a powerful feeling of deja vu, from the Peron incident, I just thought I'd point out the similarities.



Post 2

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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For me I think its more that I really like the idea of not having an IRS. Are you for another candidate because you want universal health care? Joking. I'm pretty sure its his foreign policy that you dislike, that you put a higher preference to foreign than economic policy.

Post 3

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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While it's very pleasant to have politicians say the right things, and sometimes that can even have beneficial practical results, is there any reason to believe that Paul could have any positive effect -- even if he were elected -- on reducing (much less eliminating) the IRS?

In 20 odd years of public office, has he had any measurable effect on moving the U.S. government in a pro-freedom direction?

That's not a snarky comment; I honestly don't know the answer. I'm guessing that if he had, I might have read of it somewhere, but I could have missed it.

A President has to do more than say the right things -- though, god knows that would be a welcome sight! He has to be able, to some degree, persuade others to go along with his proposals.

I've seen no evidence that Paul has that ability in any measurable degree. Granted, even assuming the most generous interpretation of him and his actual philosophy, he's tilting at a very massive windmill.
(Edited by Jeff Perren on 1/17, 3:18pm)


Post 4

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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I heard about these newsletters some time ago, understood that Paul vehemently denied any involvement. But then he went on to support campaign ads that were painfully racist, in my view.  Radio ads that bitched and moaned about a non-existent North American Union that would destroy the US by removing her boarders with Canada and Mexico (read: "Mexicans are the real threat, not Canadians"  One television ad clearly appeals to bias against brown skinned people.  Not a single Canadian, that I can see. 

Bunch of Canadians running, swimming to the boarder?

I don't think Paul is overtly racist, but I do think he's a xenophobe. I could be wrong. He might be as hate filled as many of his racist supporters are.  I won't be voting for him, no matter what he promises to do about "liberty."   Whatever that word means in his screwed up head.


Post 5

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Wow, very enlightening blog from Mr. Bidinotto. I'm very glad to have subscribed to TNI.

For me I think its more that I really like the idea of not having an IRS.


Many Republicans support that including George Bush, Huckabee, etc. Not saying I particularly like those Republicans but I don't think it's a good reason to like Ron Paul over the others considering that. Ron Paul is not unique as a Republican in wanting to abolish the IRS.

Post 6

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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This is disappointing.

Ron Paul was a huge dose of hope for me.  The mere fact that he's the only one even considering ideas like a return to sound money seemed to out shadow the futility of his effort.  Is there any other candidate who stands out from the liberal/conservative fog?


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Post 7

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 8:06pmSanction this postReply
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What a can of worms!  Let's see what I can contribute to the bonfire...

I note that Mr. Bidinotto refers to Wendy McElroy as a source, which is like citing OJ as a character witness.  Wendy, IMHO - having had many sad encounters with her, is and has been for decades an intellectually dishonest and manipulative person.  I would not trust anything she said about anyone.  Then, the terrible Murray Rothbard is cited, as though association with him is somehow a mark of the beast.  Note that Rothbard was welcome at Rand's inner circle parties for some time, until he withdrew on his own after being (reportedly) treated with contempt by Branden, who insisted on calling him "Rossbott," in caracature of Rand's accent.  Rothbard is a very highly regarded economist, BTW, and not just in anarchist circles.

The general tenor of Mr. Bidinotto's attacks leads me to discount him more than Ron Paul.

Just for the record, in spite of John Armaos's slander against me, when I pointed out that the Spartan's were the number one practitioners of Man/Boy love in Greece, and that it was an accepted part of their culture, and he responded by implying that I supported child rape, I do not support rape of anyone.

However, the questioning of an arbitrary age of consent is hardly without merit.  I would suggest that many people are not mature enough to take on the risks of sex even at age fifty, much less age eighteen.  However, there is a wide variation in judgment and intelligence.  Recently, as noted on NPR, a bill was introduced in Canada, hardly a notorious hotbed of pedophilia, to raise the legal age of consent from the currently legal 14 years old.  In many states in the U.S., last time I checked, the age of consent is 16, and in some states even lower. 

When I moved to California in 1976 from Georgia, I assumed that it was 16 here as well, and I roomed with a very bright freshman scholar at Cal State University of Long Beach who was only 17, without a clue that I was doing anything illegal.  In fact, here in the OC, even though the age of consent is 18, due to state law, exceptions are de facto granted to ethnic Mexicans, who frequently get married in Mexico at age 14.

As to racism, I do not know Paul's position, and, for that matter, I am not even a big supporter of Ron Paul.  However, is it racism to note that about half of the black males in the U.S. have been convicted of some serious crime?  Sure, part of that is due to a biased legal system.  However, there are many areas in the L.A. area that are not safe for me to visit as a white man, simply because of my skin color.  There are correspondingly few areas where being black is likely to result in an assault - although historically this has not always been the case, for sure. 

I have nothing against someone for being black.  As Rand pointed out, this is silly barnyard socialism.  I have numerous black friends and have had several serious black girlfriends over the years, going back to the '60's in Georgia, when it was not safe.  I participated in the civil rights movement. 

That does not prevent me as a human being from noting that the urban black ghetto culture as such is not especially worthy of praise, and that there is a large subculture of multi-generational welfare mothers who live off other people's efforts.  I.e., they are parasites.  I recall Jesse Jackson remarking that it was sad but true that if he heard someone walking behind him on a dark street, and, upon turning, saw that it was a white man, he felt instant relief.  Is he a racist on that account?

Or, when I drove a cab in the OC during the '80's and quickly discovered that I had a 50% run-out rate from my black customers, as opposed to a zero run-out rate from Hispanics.  I asked the black drivers how I should deal with this.  The black cabbies told me that they got money up front from any black customer, each and every time without exception.

The solution is of course to find ways to deal with people as individuals.  This is not possible in many circumstances, such as being a cabbie.  (Of course, if we had a general social contract, then we could have private ID cards that certified that we were contractees in good standing and could be counted upon to pay our bills, which would go a long ways toward eliminating business behavior based on prejudice, in favor of the individual merits of the person.)

In the late '60's, and early '70's, when the black civil rights movement made its tragic shift to being the "black power" movement, there was a consequent major sea change in attitudes of both blacks and whites.  See Tom Wolfe's Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers  http://www.tomwolfe.com/RadicalChic.html.  I recall how the young radical blacks on the university campuses of the day raved about "offing honkies" and the coming (Marxist) revolution. 

In response to a wave of general rudeness and aggression by many blacks during this period, the whites who had quietly hoped that racism would just go away were often pushed into a state of prejudice.  It only takes a few nasty incidents before one starts unconsciously anticipating more of the same and reacting accordingly.  If this is the context from which critical comments by Rockwell or Rothbard are taken, then it hardly constitutes signs of racism. 

(Edited by Phil Osborn on 1/16, 8:44pm)


Post 8

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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Just for the record, in spite of John Armaos's slander against me, when I pointed out that the Spartan's were the number one practitioners of Man/Boy love in Greece, and that it was an accepted part of their culture, and he responded by implying that I supported child rape, I do not support rape of anyone.


That's a rather disingeneous description, why don't you link to the actual post in question instead of John's profile, so we might judge for ourselves?

Post 9

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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That's a rather disingeneous description, why don't you link to the actual post in question instead of John's profile, so we might judge for ourselves
I think he's referring to Post 50, but you should probably just read the whole exchange to get the proper context.

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Movies/0140_2.shtml


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Post 10

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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Am I out of line by asking Phil if he's a registered sex offender?

Post 11

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Phil refers also to this:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/GeneralForum/1031.shtml#19

Starts at post 19.



Post 12

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Read Phil's own words. He said he had nothing against man-boy love. He is at least tolerant of pedophilia. If I'm mistaken he can correct and explain his own words. Whether the issue of consent is possible between a child and an adult (which I would argue is not possible) doesn't remove the fact he has nothing against a grown man being sexually attracted to a child. That is the definition of pedophilia. I think that's certainly a fringe notion of what is sexually acceptable. Was I unfair in saying he was tolerant of child-rape? Perhaps I took it to an extreme interpretation, in which case I'm still not sure I should apologize since I don't believe it possible for a child to consent to sex. However he still ought to explain himself if he feels indignant about my comment. Now we have a cryptic post from him talking about not knowing his roommate was under the age of consent? I'm not sure what one wants to make of that, Phil certainly has left a lot of questions open about where he stands and his own moral character is questionable at best, I think considering those comments the onus is on him to explain himself.

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Post 13

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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If the issue is that of a child being one who is prepubescent, then you'd be right - but if the idea is that a child as being one who is under the arbitrary age of, say, 18, then you;re wrong about pedofiilia...
[see the book, The Case Against Adolescence...]


Post 14

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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Well Phil can explain himself. But honestly I think it's a little sick a grown adult would find an emotionally retarded teenager sexually desirable.

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Post 15

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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... on a thread that is not this thread. Please.

Post 16

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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What Dean said.

Ed


Post 17

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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I have no problem with that. Just reacting to the flurry of posts calling me out by name. But to get back on track:

I thought this was entertaining to read from a libertarian blog characterizing Ron Paul's actions through a fictional conversation with his business associate Burt Blumert who was responsible for the series of paranoid racist and homophobic newsletters that circulated from Ron Paul's offices for decades:

Or I suppose something like this could have happened:

Ron, 1989: Hey Burt, what’s all this racist crap in my newsletter?

Burt: Sorry, Ron. I had to fire a ghostwriter. It seemed OK when I first read it, but I saw that it was pretty nasty on second thought. Taken care of.

Ron: OK.

Ron, 1990: Hey Burt, what’s all this nastiness about my hero MLK about?

Burt: You like MLK? Sorry. We have evidence here in our folders that he was a commie and a pervert. I mean, I got this straight from J. Edgar Hoover and he never lied.

Ron: Burt, you should know never to trust the FBI!

Burt: Sorry, won’t happen again.

Ron, 1995: Burt, there’s more MLK bashing and nastiness and racism! What’s going on here?

Burt: Yeah, I had to fire another sub-editor. Sorry. But, on the bright side, we suckered another several thou off of the creeps on the far right!

Seems unlikely, no? Could Ron be that dumb?


http://wirkman.net/wordpress/?p=207
(Edited by John Armaos on 1/18, 10:59am)


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Post 18

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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Bidinotto sounds alot like Anne Coulter.  She also likes to use the word "scumbags" to add weight to her arguments.  Pretty sad.

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Post 19

Friday, January 18, 2008 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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Also sad you dismiss his arguments entirely because he appropriately used the word scum-bag to describe a scum-bag.

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