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Post 0

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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Wow. And Dan Rather will live to be 103...

Post 1

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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 And Dan Rather will live to be 103...

cows never die - they just bovine away...;-)


Post 2

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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Why is this posted as a 'thread' to an Objectivist website? Is there a point to a random celebrity death we need to discuss? Does he have an impact on or connection to Objectivism like Buckley did.

Let's convert this to a random news site. And then have people chew up bandwidth posting one-liner humorous responses.

New threads:

--Floods in Iowa.

--New quasar discovered.

--Tom Cruise enters triathlon.

--Corn crops converted to Ethanol. New windmills in Holland.

--Paris Hilton gives birth to three-headed child.

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Post 3

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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I thought Tim Russert was the best t'v' journalist in America by far. No-one was better prepared, more intelligent, or diffidently asked more probing and insightful questions. After his recent interviews with Obama, Hillary, and Ron Paul, I actually thought he devastated all three campaigns. He undressed them and their beliefs so easily and yet so politely. Curiously, no one seemed to notice or care afterward. (I can't explain this.)

Russert evidently wasn't cut from heroic cloth -- but his sheer competence, focus, controlled energy, and dedication made him a giant. He also seemed to hugely enjoy his work and his life. This is an unexpected tragedy and a serious loss.


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Post 4

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
Why didn't you just say that you don't consider Russert's death to be of any importance instead of criticizing those who do? You're entitled to your opinion, or course, and so am I. Here's one of mine: you can be a real asshole sometimes. Have you considered therapy?

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Post 5

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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"We also seek to be a microcosm of the world we want to create. The rebirth of reason starts here. If we want to create a better world, we must start with ourselves. If we want a healthier culture, we have to create it here. If we want to promote reason, accomplishment, and happiness, we need only look to ourselves."

Take it up with Joe, Phil.

There are fora here for jokes, videos, banter, etc. Many people here stay up on the news, watch "Meet the Press" and have realized the loss of some value, no matter how small, in the passing of this apparently decent gentleman.

No one here associates only with Objectivists, reads only explicitly Objectivist literature, writes only about explicit philosophical matters, thinks like a robot only about abstractions divorced from the accidents of real life. Life has content as well as form.

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Post 6

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn expressed genuine concern for his fellow RoR poster when he wrote:

Phil, [...] You're entitled to your opinion, or course, and so am I. Here's one of mine: you can be a real asshole sometimes. Have you considered therapy?

Not to worry, help is on the way!
 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 6/13, 8:16pm)


Post 7

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
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> I thought Tim Russert was the best t'v' journalist in America by far. No-one was better prepared, more intelligent, or diffidently asked more probing and insightful questions.

Ok, well then SAY that in the original post, if that's the point you want to get across. I certainly don't know him or what his journalism is like...and that would be true of any reader who does not regularly watch and compare the Sunday talk shows.

Don't just "lazy post" that someone died with no explanation and expect that we all follow political talk shows that closely.

.......

Oh, and calling someone an "asshole" because you don't agree with their point of view displays a junior high school level of disagreement. The frequent temptation is that the more strongly you disagree with someone, the quicker an insult springs to mind to express the violence and extent of your disagreement. (Or that you want to express your -personal contempt- for the person you are disagreeing with -- something that has unfortunately become almost part of the DNA of Objectivists.)

The trick is to instead take a deep breath before you let fly and make enemies and do what Zantanovich did: offer his reasons and his evidence, precisely and in detail. And possibly even educate me or others about something new. My respect for him has increased.

Don't imitate Perigo and his cheapness, his level of discussion and discourse.





(Edited by Philip Coates on 6/13, 10:41pm)


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Post 8

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
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Don't imitate Perigo and his cheapness, his level of discussion and discourse.

Hear, hear....


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Post 9

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 11:32pmSanction this postReply
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You can't have it both ways. Your complaint, Phil, was much more than that Jonathan didn't explain (to you) why he was justified in posting this item.

Why would you berate him for this, but not me for posting about an emm effing unicorn? My reference to unicorns and concept formation was obviously a joke.

If a thread doesn't interest you, just don't post. Move on. It's a feast, not a famine. Start your own thread. Start your own forum. The Perigoification you are referring to consists in the desire to control, to mandate, what other people think is important. He can't do it. You can't do it - there's no compulsion, no berating people into agreement. You have to offer people value, not paternalism. Or schism.

If I can (and please, no one ever mention this again) sanction Kyrel and Glenn above, the least you can do is consider that "lazy posting" is not the problem here.

Post 10

Friday, June 13, 2008 - 11:55pmSanction this postReply
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> No one here associates only with Objectivists, reads only explicitly Objectivist literature, writes only about explicit philosophical matters, thinks like a robot only about abstractions divorced from the accidents of real life. Life has content as well as form.

I very much agree. Thanks for making that point - it's a very important one!

My personal interest in daily news items is generally low, but people have different preferences - and if Tim R is anything close to deserving the high praise KZ gives him, his loss is to be regretted and it certainly is an important news item.)

My original post was poorly worded - it was to the unexplained nature of the news item..and why it would be of interest. KZ's post clarified that for me. (As far as personal insults are concerned, once I have someone pegged as liking to discourse that way with strangers, since my time is quite limited and I have such an enormously strong distaste for that manner of dealing with people and since I consider it a major benevolence issue, I mark them as someone to ignore in future, no matter how perceptive the individual may be in other ways.)

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Post 11

Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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Phil,
I'm curious about something.  If someone says (or does) X and you say "saying (or doing) X is stupid", do you think that is different from, or more civil than, saying "you're stupid"?  You said:
...calling someone an "asshole" because you don't agree with their point of view displays a junior high school level of disagreement.
Do you think that is really different from saying "Glenn, you're acting like a junior high school student"?  I don't need to study predicate logic to get the point.  If I had said "People who criticize others for posting stories that they're not interested in are exhibiting asshole-like behavior", would you have reacted differently?  Does this make it more impersonal, and therefore more palatable, to you?
You said:
Or that you want to express your -personal contempt- for the person you are disagreeing with -- something that has unfortunately become almost part of the DNA of Objectivists.
So, as an Objectivist, am I not supposed to be insulted by this because it wasn't directed at me personally?


Post 12

Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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**basics of civility: personal insult vs. honest debate or criticism**

The difference is that:

(i) saying someone is [I wouldn't normally use your example, the simplistic term 'stupid'}: --acting below their maturity level, --like a kid, --being rationalistic --illogical --non-objective, --sloppy, --careless .... or the like is not an insult but a very specific charge or criticism.

It's especially valid if it's TRUE - as was my statement that the use of insult in dialogue is acting like in junior h.s.

(ii) saying someone is an "asshole" on the other hand: Its only purpose and content is the intent of being a deliberately offensive act, a rude expression intended to "get even". In a junior high school type way to inflict a wound.

Or express contempt.

Even a very strong or personal criticism is not the same as an insult. Nor is one you view as unfair or inaccurate.

Very simply, it's the attempt to be abusive not to point out a fact. Everyone knows the difference, as would you if you were on the receiving end of the "asshole" attack.

It's a substitute for a civilized discussion and tends to short circuit or kill all future possibililities of same. That's why they teach you not to do it.

........

If you wish to *retract* the insult (in the same way that I corrected my original post above, then you and I can start over. If you feel your integrity/manhood/standing are at stake and wish to proudly stand by the "kassy" insult in a Perigo type way, you and I are done.



(Edited by Philip Coates on 6/14, 10:42pm)


Post 13

Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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(wrapping up)

> If someone says (or does) X and you say "saying (or doing) X is stupid", do you think that is different from, or more civil than, saying "you're stupid"? [Glenn]

Very different, obviously:

The first, a specific criticism of one action X; the second a condemnation of someone's -person-.

> "express[ing] -personal contempt- for the person you are disagreeing with -- something that has unfortunately become almost part of the DNA of Objectivists." So, as an Objectivist, am I not supposed to be insulted by this because it wasn't directed at me personally?

Never be "insulted" when something objective, factual, precise is stated.

Even if it stings. Or harshly criticizes your 'group'.




(Edited by Philip Coates on 6/14, 10:51pm)


Post 14

Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 10:45pmSanction this postReply
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The Junior Highschool Student calling the Sophmore Black?

Phil, I still think you were wrong for your overreaction, but here's Mr. Fletcher's first ever (yes, ad hominem) interaction with me on this list:

"This kind of specious, "sophomoric" reasoning is understandable in a 10th grader, but not in an adult."

If the shoe fits...Mr. Fletcher can keep wearing it. His remarks in post 11 above are hilarious, given his exact same behavior using almost the exact same words against me.

I'm no saint, but Rotfl!

Surely we can now let Mr. Russert lie in peace?

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Post 15

Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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Tim Russert was a decent man, focused, hard-working, very respected by people from all walks of life. In many ways a good role model, even for objectivists. That could have been the focus of this thread but for the self obsession of one particularly obnoxious school marm "Objectivist". Hat's off and sanctions to Glenn Fletcher.

Post 16

Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 11:36amSanction this postReply
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I found Russert to be intelligent and well-spoken, but he was always another liberal journalist to me. I preferred watching MacNeil-Lehrer or the McLaughlin Group.

Jim


Post 17

Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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this is another take on his death, and the aftermath......

http://barelyablog.com/?p=659


Post 18

Monday, June 16, 2008 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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Phil,
I interpreted your post #2 to be saying that Tim Russert's death was of no significance and you were criticizing those who posted about it.  Also, you appeared to be trivializing it by comparing it to tabloid-like headlines like "Paris Hilton gives birth to three-headed child".  If that was not your intent, and you seem to be suggesting that it wasn't in post #10, then I apologize for over-reacting.  If it was your intent, then my post #4 stands.

But I want to address some of the other things you said in subsequent posts.  Much of it I disagree with, but a discussion of that will have to wait.  But, in post #13 you said:
Never be "insulted" when something objective, factual, precise is stated.
This was in response to my criticism of your statement that
... express[ing] -personal contempt- for the person you are disagreeing with -- something that has unfortunately become almost part of the DNA of Objectivists."
This statement is neither objective, factual, nor precise.  But it is insulting.  You seem to think that the passive-aggressive approach of saying that an individual is an example of an insulting generalization, rather than confronting them directly, is not an insult to that person.  I disagree.

Finally, as an aside, I don't respond to Mr. Keer's posts.  If anyone is interested in why I don't, they can look at his post that followed my "ad hominem" attack on him that he referred to in post #14.  Oh, wait: you can't look at it.  It was deleted because the administrators thought it was too offensive.  BTW, this was not at my request.  I would have preferred it remain as a source of insight into Mr. Keer's character.

Thanks,
Glenn



Post 19

Monday, June 16, 2008 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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> [your view that] Tim Russert's death was of no significance...you appeared to be trivializing it by comparing it to tabloid-like headlines like "Paris Hilton gives birth to three-headed child". If that was not your intent...

It was indeed my original intent in writing a parody of contentless or bizarre or Unconnected To Any Discernible Point news threads I've seen too often here. But KZ, for example, summarized (rather than skated past or presumed) its significance. And because of that (as opposed to what I call Lazy Posts), I've been reading a lot of commentary on the worth of the man and his sense of fairness as an interviewer which makes me wish I had watched enough of "Meet the Press" to be able to judge for myself.

Bill Kristol just had a good NYT piece, as have several liberal writers. The idea that Russert would skewer -both sides- with tough questions is something very rare in today's era of velvet glove bias.

Every time I did see part of MTP, he -did- seem to be pointing out the contradiction between something someone says today and what he said once years ago. I have mixed feelings about that dominating an interview, though: It's too easy to find something someone said differently years ago.

What's important is the substance of present views and reasons for them. Not sensationalist "gotcha'. Or trying to trap someone into a (too often) concrete-bound change of position or pander.

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