RoR: Forum

Of value to whom and for what?

Post 1

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 2:31pm

Of value to oneself for the purpose of gainful, meaningful employment that does not leave oneself in perpetual debt to student loans and at perpetual risk of long term unemployment.

Post 2

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 3:05pm

Luke,

"Gainful" and "meaningful" are subjective, so they can't be used to answer the question in the title. As far as the debt that one might incur in obtaining a PhD; well, that's an investment that you make. And sometimes investments don't pay off. I know that the investments I've made into my retirement account haven't.

Times are tough and jobs are scarce. What the article doesn't point out is that jobs are scarce for those with a GED also. And, in most cases (except where the applicant is considered to be over-qualified), the PhD has a better chance at a job than the person with the GED.

So, I don't see this article as adding anything to your view on the value of an advanced degree, a view with which I disagree.

Thanks,
Glenn

Post 3

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 3:40pm

Show me your cash flow statement.

Post 4

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 5:46pm

Well, I don't think the woman in the article would have BETTER luck finding a museum curator job with just a GED, do you? Maybe the problem is the sense of entitlement some people have: "Here's my PhD, now give me a good job." It doesn't necessarily work that way. That said, I'm glad I got my PhD in computer science. I am not good at job-hunting, and it gave me an edge. I think it also influenced my first employer to give me some of the more interesting assignments because I had the "credentials" to handle them. I didn't have any debt after my PhD; the tuition wasn't really that high, and I had assistantships.

Post 5

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:05pm

I've heard that sometimes being overqualified makes it harder to get a job. The company still has to train you, so they have to judge whether you're going to stick around and make their investment in training you worth it. If you're overqualified, you're more likely to leave this job at the first opportunity. They may prefer someone less educated, but more reliable in that sense.

Post 6

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 6:11pm

My main beef is with students running six figures of debt in majors for which the market offers no jobs.

If the PhD actually produces desired results for some people, bully for them!

I ran some numbers recently on a spreadsheet comparing different scenarios of college education, the most radical (and profitable) of which involved earning a GED out of tenth grade, attending a community college program for an AS in a technical field, and alternating semesters of school and work via cooperative education. In contrast with other possibilities, only that one left the student in the black after continuing to university and completing a bachelor's degree assuming no other forms of financial aid. I may investigate this further and write an article on my findings.

The best option for education beyond a bachelor's degree involves working for an employer who finances a master's or even a doctor's degree as an employee benefit. Many do this. Mine does.

Hey! I just reached five Atlas icons! Hurray!

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 5/13, 6:19pm)

Post 7

Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 8:02pm

LS: The best option for education beyond a bachelor's degree involves working for an employer who finances a master's or even a doctor's degree as an employee benefit. Many do this. Mine does.

Are you still an engineer with NASA?

Post 8

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 2:42am

Yes, MEM, and you can give me grief about it all you want, but I will continue to work for them whether you like it or not. (Frankly, I am getting tired of you asking me this silly question again and again. So let me make this clear: I plan to work for NASA until I die. So just assume I work for them until I say otherwise.) I met many employees in my master's program working for private employers who also financed their master's degrees. So the compensation package is the compensation package as an employee, period.

If you think I will engage in a martyrdom that will make no difference, you are dead wrong. You may as well give me grief for using government roads, government schools, and government post offices. The list goes ad nauseum and becomes absurd. So, no, I make no apologies for exercising the opportunity to do really cool stuff in a mixed economy during my brief life in this world.

I suggest the chapter on "The Crusade Hurdle" in Looking Out for Number One by Robert J. Ringer for more insight.

Sometimes I really do think you're nuts.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 5/14, 3:06am)

Post 9

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 6:46am

"Show me your cash flow statement."
Luke: is this what you would have said to Roark just before he turned down the Manhattan Bank project, having only $14.57 to his name? If it is, then it's about as useful as what Keating said to him.

Post 10

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 6:50am

In case you haven't noticed, I am not Howard Roark, nor am I Peter Keating. I am who I am. Take me or leave me.

I don't have my copy of the novel in front of me so I do not recall what Keating said to Roark.

In any case, this is real life and not some novel where the author can write any outcome she wishes.

I still view it an act of high hubris not to consider economic consequences of educational and career choices.

As for Roark, if he turned down a project I was soliciting, I would have simply said "NEXT!" and left him to fend for himself.

I have a very dim view of debt, especially student loans that have stiff penalties for non-payment. The Self is the ultimate value. All else needs to fall into service to that ultimate value.

I act accordingly.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 5/14, 7:49am)

Post 11

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 7:36am

LS: ... I am getting tired of you asking me this silly question again and again. So let me make this clear: I plan to work for NASA until I die. ...I met many employees in my master's program working for private employers who also financed their master's degrees. So the compensation package is the compensation package as an employee, period.

That was actually several questions at once and you answered them. You are still employed. You did not retire. NASA is, indeed, the coolest government job you could have.... outer space and all that ...

Being an employee at all is a basic choice and many people find it comfortable.

I was surprised to learn that there are still companies that reimburse or pay for degrees.

I agree wthat we all make choices and we are not completely responsible for every aspect of our social context -- public roads, post offices, etc. So, if you want to put Doric pillars on your bank so that people will lend you their money, your life is your own to so with as you please.

I hope you don't die working for NASA. That would be way too young.

There is a lot more to living right, to being moral, than the "window dressing" of lifestyle. A Randian Objectivist would say that it is immoral to be a park ranger at Yellowstone. I have a graduate school class in interenational enterprises. Last night we watched a Frontline video about illegal tax shelters created by KPMG. As supportive as I could be about these clever dodges that prevent predation by the state, I had to wonder what goes through the mind of an accountant who sells a product that they know is illegal.

That raises some fundamental issues on a forum like this one.

As for the basic question on this topic and its related discussions, if the purpose of an education is job training, then the goals and means are, as you say, employment. That is a tautology and is unarguable. Your argument is with those who claim that the $100,000 is worthwhile for instrinsic reasons.

Intrinsic is not objective.

If education is valuable for itself without further justification, then there is no reason to pursue a degree. You can just read books and do things.

So, those who argue for degrees are caught in a contradiction: they claim that education is intrinsically worthwhile, but that you need a degree to prove to others that you are educated.

Post 12

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 7:40am

Luke, I agree with you that economic ramifications are important in most decisions, and I personally think it can be the easiest and clearest way to identify the really bad decisions. However, the self is the final determiner of value. Money earned is primarily a barometer of the values of others. So it seems dangerous and destructive to use economics as one's primary assessment tool for value. Some things ARE more important, or at leasr should be.

Post 13

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 7:48am

The most amazing thing about Luke's post #10 is that it had been edited.

Post 14

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 7:59am

Again, Ryan, this is an economic issue. If a Self has the wherewithal to afford a six figure education without forefeiting other things of higher value to the Self (like food, clothing, and shelter), that's fine. As I have emphasized, the problem comes with the entitlement mentality that assumes a cause and effect between higher degree and higher salary without actually showing it. Certainly personal preference plays a role, but not an overarching whimsical role.

Glenn, my editing did not alter my basic message to you, it only elucidated it.

MEM, I have known people who worked into their 80s for NASA and remained productive until they retired. I have known others who "retired in place" many years before they retired in fact. I like working in the space program so I am in no hurry to retire. Space is cool!

Post 15

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 8:09am

Of course whim and sacrifice should never play a role in ANY decision. Certainly some half assed assertion by educators and parents that a degree always means money shouldn't be blindly internalized. But as a counterpoint, if I did a balance sheet on my proposed education it would look totally insane. I personally value some fields enough that its worth it to me, with little or no economic upside needed. Of course, part of my plan DOES involve economic success as well, but that is only one value among many.

Post 16

Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 10:10am

I like the idea of the spreadsheet, but it would be foolish to ignore the fact that life is lived for the experience - and all experiences are not equal.

For example, one could put together a spreadsheet that showed it to be far superior to get the GED and become a plumber right away, instead of spending perhaps a decade or more becoming an engineer with advanced degrees and getting a job with NASA. But to be useful, that spreadsheet should have a subjectively determined dollar amount assigned to one's personal preference for a life of engineering space missions compared to unclogging toilets and such.

In some cases the sheer passion for one career choice will rule out the others... but it is good to use a spreadsheet - just don't leave off important stuff.

Post 17

Friday, May 15, 2009 - 5:23am

I hope in the next couple of months to publish an RoR article called "Exploring the GED for Fun and Profit" to elucidate these ideas in more detail.

Suffice it to say that if I found myself completing tenth grade today, I would seriously consider taking the GED and enrolling in an AS mechanical engineering technology program at my local community college. This would allow me to take a semester or two of college courses relevant to my future engineering plans before starting paid cooperative education in a "hands on" technical field. Alternating semesters of school and work create a semi-steady, largely predictable cash flow leading to a useful AS degree. These same courses could eventually be used toward a four year BS in mechanical engineering if done rightly. Moreover, the undertaking would practically pay for itself with hardly any financial assistance needed -- not even from parents.

So, yes, I agree with the thrust of Ryan's and Steve's posts, but there are ways to integrate all factors for a much more powerful whole. The hard part involves simply discovering what one needs to know before the fact. Sadly, "the system" does not exactly help in this regard. I hope my article will.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 5/15, 5:26am)

Post 18

Friday, May 15, 2009 - 5:29am

I tend to concur with Luke on this one - especially the lack of info to allow seeing the viability of this approach, a deliberate consequence of the snob approach to 'intellectual' knowledge apart from practical knowledge...

Post 19

Friday, May 15, 2009 - 5:37am