RoR: Forum

This is just a wonderful example of Chinese music and dancing and has nothing else pertinent to this thread.

Shanghai World Expo Closing Ceremony

p.s. Does anyone have an explanation of the apparently seated musicians?

(Edited by Sam Erica on 1/16, 12:25pm)

Post 81

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 1:25pm

I added this article because it was interesting to me and the subject is a critical one. Children grow up, the quality of human life from generation to generation depends on the quality of adults these children become.

A free society cannot exist without a majority of honorable men and women with high levels of self esteem, strong principles and the courage to live by them. And the ability to make promises and keep them. Individuals like this don't spring up by happenstance. For instance, I don't think persons who have not overcome a serious challenge, tried and succeeded at something personally difficult, can fully know what making a promise, either to themselves or others, with the intention of keeping it means. Do you leave these character building experiences to chance or do you build them into your child rearing method?

How did we get to be a nation full of people sitting around waiting for handouts, with "rights" (no effort required) to food, housing, medical care, education, and who knows what else? One plausible answer: not enough "Chinese Mothers".

Post 82

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 1:59pm

Hong,

Who said that children were knowledgeable enough to make the kind of choices you're referring to? Of course, children are not fully autonomous human beings. I never suggested they were. But they should be given a reasonable sphere of personal choice in their lives. Otherwise, they'll never develop the capacity or the self-confidence to make their own decisions. You stunt their personal development if you never give them that opportunity.

Parental control and guidance is an essential part of child rearing, but it can be overdone to the point that the child never really learns to think for himself, because he is so used to taking orders from his parents and to letting them make his decisions for him. Ideally, as he grows, he should be granted an ever increasing sphere of independence and autonomy until by the time he is ready to leave home, he has learned to think for himself and to make his own decisions.

Of course, while a child is under the parents control, he or she cannot be allowed to make demonstrably unwise or harmful choices, like taking drugs or engaging in risky or irresponsible sexual behavior, but a child should be permitted the freedom to choose among perfectly acceptable alternatives, like which musical instrument to play, whether or not to act in a school play or which sport to try out for. It is in these kinds of choices that the child's individuality should be upheld and respected.

Post 83

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 3:13pm

Bill,

It is more complex than that. I suspect that everyone knows that parents can micro-manage a child and cause harm, or that a parent can fail to be directive enough and cause harm. That there are extremes to be avoided is obvious.

In real life a good parent is pushing harder when needed and being totally permissive when that is the appropriate stance. A good parent let's a child make safe mistakes, and encourages them taking on more choices. But that same parent will become adamant, unbending, and a real tyrant when it comes to not letting the child form a bad character trait.

It is obvious that a good parent will put their foot down with issues like using drugs or other risky behaviors, but in most cases it would be far worse for a child's future should they grow up without a sense of honor, without a good set of ethical principles, or without the ability to exercise self-discipline, and these lessons might be the real focus that on the surface is mistaken to be about a piano or a piece of music.

In practical terms there are only two ways to teach those important lessons and they both must be deployed. By example, and in the practice of a child's day to day life (like a fight over a piano lesson) - because they will never be taught by lecture. Lectures on abstract issues don't do this job.

Post 84

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 8:35pm

Steve: that's very well said.

Post 85

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 11:44pm

Steve wrote,

A good parent let's a child make safe mistakes, and encourages them taking on more choices. But that same parent will become adamant, unbending, and a real tyrant when it comes to not letting the child form a bad character trait.

Character is something that a person develops through the exercise of his own freedom of choice. It is not something that is pounded into him by a parental tyrant. A parent should certainly be unyielding when it comes to preventing a child from doing things that are harmful to him, but you cannot coerce good character. You can teach it, but you cannot impose it. A child who behaves because his parents force him to is not doing so out of good character but out of fear of punishment.

It is obvious that a good parent will put their foot down with issues like using drugs or other risky behaviors, but in most cases it would be far worse for a child's future should they grow up without a sense of honor, without a good set of ethical principles, or without the ability to exercise self-discipline, and these lessons might be the real focus that on the surface is mistaken to be about a piano or a piece of music.

Self-discipline is not parentally imposed discipline. Honorable behavior is a reflection of voluntary action; it is not behavior that is done in order to avoid punishment or an angry reaction by the parents. Ethical principles can only be practiced by choice. An action that is coerced is not a reflection of moral behavior. Browbeating a child into practicing a piece of music does not inculcate good character.

In practical terms there are only two ways to teach those important lessons and they both must be deployed. By example, and in the practice of a child's day to day life (like a fight over a piano lesson) - because they will never be taught by lecture. Lectures on abstract issues don't do this job.

What you're teaching a child by forcing him to practice a piano piece that he hates doing is that he must obey his parents if he wants to avoid being punished. What this has to do with honor, character or ethical behavior is beyond my comprehension.

Post 86

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 2:51am

Bill, although I sanctioned your most recent post, I see from your Extended Profile that you have no children. So your posts are not informed with firsthand experience. If you have in fact raised children not your own through extensive babysitting, etc., please tell us about those experiences.

Steve, I can say the same about you.

I have chosen to remain childfree in part because of all these begged questions in a world where the Nanny State keeps intrusively answering them for us, effectively treating parents like children. (Compulsory education to state standards comes immediately to mind.) Moreover, one has to love children so much that the other values forfeited in favor of raising them feel like investitures rather than a sacrifices. That quality does not describe me.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 3:26am)

Post 87

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 3:08am

Mike Erickson asked:

How did we get to be a nation full of people sitting around waiting for handouts, with "rights" (no effort required) to food, housing, medical care, education, and who knows what else? One plausible answer: not enough "Chinese Mothers".

How did China become a nation ruled by tyrants operating a Nanny State where everyone's life is run lockstep by a Communist regime? One plausible answer: too many "Chinese Mothers."

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 3:10am)

Post 88

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 7:37am

Luke,

Something I overlooked in Steve's post that he may have been alluding to is the idea that if you force a child to learn a piece of music, even to the point of browbeating it into her, it will show her that persistence pays off and that that is a valuable lesson. Okay, I can see that, if that is what he meant. Still, it doesn't show much respect for the child as a human being who has her own values and preferences.

I can also see how it's important to teach the child a respect for other people and not to tolerate disrespectful behavior towards others and that this can be an example of the ethical values that he was referring to. The problem comes when the parents are themselves disrespectful towards the child in an overly harsh disciplinary environment. As Jane Chin points out, the child could become depressed and unhappy. He could also rebel and become disrespectful towards those around him.

No, I haven't raised kids, and as you and Hong point out this may disqualify me from an experienced opinion on this issue. Still, I am able to learn from the experience of others, and the high rate of suicide and depression in Asian households is certainly evidence that this manner of raising children has its drawbacks.

I am also an Objectivist and value the independent spirit, which I think deserves as much respect and nurturing as possible even, and perhaps especially, among children.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 1/17, 10:50am)

Post 89

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 11:16am

Luke,

I come at this issue as a psychologist, with formal training in the theories and practices of parenting and children's developmental psychology, licensed as a Marriage, Family and Child Therapist, and with a decade of working with kids through Los Angeles County's Children's Protective Service.

You mentioned that China is a nation ruled by tyrants and is also a nation born of Chinese mothers. But that article's title wasn't chosen by the author, and she is actually talking about Chinese-American mothers who left China and it's Communist rule, and you are mixing up cause-effect aspects of politics and child rearing in ways that don't make sense.

Post 90

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 12:14pm

In my own defense, Steve, if Mike Erickson wants to make a flip remark suggesting that household tyranny can lead to global freedom, I can make a similarly flip remark suggesting the opposite, namely that household conditioning for tyranny can lead to its acceptance as a global human condition in adulthood.

I am glad to know that you have the training and experience needed to make informed comments about parenting.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 12:19pm)

Post 91

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 1:55pm

Posting this per Teresa's request:

I am enjoying reading this discussion. I see some value in Hong and Steve's comments but I also see some value in Bill and Luke's comments. As I said before I think there ought be a balance here. Children do not always follow your example (I've seen it in my own siblings who haven't) but sometimes they do. I think there's value in allowing your child choices over things that are non-essential to their development, such as which instrument to play, or what sport they want to play, but the making the choice itself I think is an essential as it teaches individuality. But I also find value in making that child commit to their choice once they made it "You wanna play the guitar? Then don't complain about practice!", in that sense I agree that you are teaching your child how to commit to an activity and see through it to the end. I've seen people around me lack this trait and easily give up when something becomes slightly difficult. Pushing someone out of their comfort zone has value because once they see the reward, a valuable lesson is learned which will contribute to that person's long term happiness. When I choose to do something I am a very committed person because of my parents teaching me this lesson, my wife will even accuse me of obsessing.

I also agree with Bill that holding up your child against another as a measure of success is misguided. All children cannot be the first in their class, obviously this is an impossibility, but I don't think it's wrong to expect your child to work hard and get a good grade (a class can have more than one student with an A), and take part in tutoring the child if he falls behind on a subject.

I don't know anything about the Montessori method but I am intrigued.

Post 92

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 2:41pm

The Montessori method allows the child to choose among a limited set of valid options. The book I cited near the start of this thread identifies studies showing that an optimum set of choices exists for a child (or even an adult). Too many choices overwhelm the chooser and too few make the chooser feel confined. Visit this link to learn more and to order the book. My local Ayn Rand Meetup will discuss it next month.

John and TSI, thanks for posting that video!

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 2:52pm)

Post 93

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 2:51pm

Thanks Luke I'll look into it more as I'm considering having children this year.

Post 94

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 3:35pm

Flip? I wasn't being flippant at all Luke. And "household tyranny" is not at all descriptive of what I admire about Amy Chua's method of raising her children. I admire her goal oriented and purposeful approach. She knows her children very well, she has a great deal of respect for their abilities, the abilities they don't even know they have. She builds their confidence in themselves by pushing them to achieve things they didn't know they could achieve. You call that tyranny. I call it respecting your children and caring about what they become.

"Chinese Mother" was intended to be a conceptualization of the purposeful and goal oriented approach to child rearing I described above, not as a glorification of the totality of any culture.

Rather than making a smartass remark about the last sentence I wrote why don't you address these remarks:

[ A free society cannot exist without a majority of honorable men and women with high levels of self esteem, strong principles and the courage to live by them. And the ability to make promises and keep them. Individuals like this don't spring up by happenstance. For instance, I don't think persons who have not overcome a serious challenge, tried and succeeded at something personally difficult, can fully know what making a promise, either to themselves or others, with the intention of keeping it means. Do you leave these character building experiences to chance or do you build them into your child rearing method? ]

My own experience as a parent was as a step dad. My step son lived with me from the age of 4 until 12. I advised my wife to enroll him in the local Montessori school which he attended from first through sixth grade and I paid for. Just before he turned twelve his mom and I divorced and she enrolled him in the public school system. While we were together I taught him to ride a bike and to take it completely apart and repair it. I also taught him basic electronics (try explaining space charge layers and transistor action to a 10 year old sometime), and basic programming. In high school he got an after school job at a bike shop building and repairing bicycles. He now works for Comcast as an installer. We still see each other from time to time and are friends. He chose to join the Navy after high school and served four years. When he came home he talked some about going to college did attend some classes. He enrolled and completed EMT school at the local community college but chose not to pursue that as a career. He did some construction work for awhile, worked as a veterinary assistant. Some other jobs, I'm not sure what. He is very personable, gets along well with people, people like him. He's not interested at all in academic subjects though he's reasonably bright. I think Montessori helped a lot with him being able to get along well and work with others. I don't think they piqued an interest in him in academic subjects at all. A school environment, no matter how good, cannot replace parental involvement and commitment.
(Edited by Mike Erickson on 1/17, 6:44pm)

Post 95

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 4:04pm

Mike, I take no issue with your stated goals or methods. But your goals and methods have far more flexibility and respect for the individual than do those of Chua. So rather than speculating that America has too few mothers of her persuasion, perhaps we should consider that it has too few fathers like you.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/17, 4:11pm)

Post 96

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 7:42pm

What I find missing in all this discussion is the subject of hobbies for children. In my opinion, hobbies provide self-directed activities that develop focus, determination, motor skills, etc. all derived from a special interest emanating from the child himself. As a child, I was into model airplanes, as were my buddies. Later it was soap box derby. Activities like this which are largely separated from parental wishes and controls seem to me to be very positive in childhood development.

Sam

Post 97

Monday, January 17, 2011 - 11:59pm

John, you wrote:

But I also find value in making that child commit to their choice once they made it.

"Making" the child commit to their choice once they've made it? Why? The child isn't free to change his mind? Suppose he discovers that it's not as valuable an activity as he thought it was, and decides that he no longer wants to pursue it? Does he not have that choice? For example, suppose that your son decides that he wants to play football, and latter discovers that he doesn't like the physical demands of the sport. Would you force him to continue playing it just because he had chosen it initially? I don't see that as being justified, nor as consistent with his having the option of choosing it to begin with.

By the way, thanks for the Lisa VanDamme video. I thought it was superb.

Post 98

Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 5:45am

Sam, I doubt I would work for NASA today had my parents not granted me the freedom and resources to build and launch model rockets as a boy. Whatever my complaints about the farm work, living in a rural area with a large acreage granted me the freedom to do things city dwellers could never do. Launching model rockets in my back yard was one of them.

Bill, I agree with you in general though there are some life skills a child "must" learn to live successfully. I would confine force to those while accompanying them with explanations of their crucial, life or death importance. These skills include literacy in language and mathematics, basic physical fitness, etc. I might even include basic self-defense in that category, e.g. learning lower levels of karate to defend oneself from bullies and other assailants.

Post 99

Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 5:50am