About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Monday, January 10, 2011 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
For awhile, as I was reading the article, I thought it might be a parody on overly strict parenting. I soon realized she was serious! What jumped out at me was her statement that her children were never allowed to play any instrument other than the piano or violin or to not play the piano or violin. Wow! No freedom of choice whatsoever. No individualism, no independence.

China certainly has an authoritarian legacy, but I didn’t realize that it played such a strong role in the home environment. It’s sometimes said that the Asian mindset lacks creativity and innovation. If true, the emphasis on cultural conformity and obedience to authority may be partly to blame.

A friend of mine whose wife is Chinese said that even her Chinese friends thought the author goes too far.

The following reply to Ms. Chua entitled "In defense of laissez-faire parenting" also appeared in the WJS and is worth reading.

http://blogs.wsj.com/juggle/2011/01/10/in-defense-of-laissez-faire-parenting/




Post 1

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Neither article mention Montessori, the method that seems best to integrate freedom of exploration with needed structure.

I hope the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) eventually offers a rebuttal from an experienced Montessori parent or teacher.

From what I know of the method, it takes full advantage of natural curiosity and cultivates the habit of long periods of unbroken concentration.

The book Montessori: The Science Behind the Genius contrasts four parenting styles based on degrees of control and warmth:

1. Authoritarian (high control and low warmth)
2. Permissive (low control and high warmth)
3. Neglecting (low control and low warmth)
4. Authoritative (high control and high warmth)

The author favors this last one with the "control" being the structure of the Montessori classroom. I will not write a long summary of the method. I encourage readers to visit the site and order the book, now available in Kindle format for instant download.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Would anyone care to elaborate how this mother differs from Peter Keating's mother?

Both mothers hound their children into making their mothers happy rather than letting them free to make themselves happy.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/11, 8:54am)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I found this article very interesting. I experienced a lot of "low warmth" with a baffling mix of high control and permissiveness. I have mocked "public school rote learners" before on this forum and other places but the reality is, I couldn't memorize a poem longer than two lines if my life depended on it. I've never gotten past the community college level. I work as an engineer but I'm well aware of my deficits compared to my well educated colleagues. My organizational skills leave a lot to be desired, I procrastinate, I have left projects unfinished more often than I would like to admit even to myself. So, sometimes I wonder where I would be now if I'd had a "Chinese Mother". It's so obvious that this women loves her daughters very much. It's obvious to them too. I think Lulu has a lot of independence in her: Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" It doesn't seem like she's afraid of her mother. There is a lot of testing of wills. What better way to make a will stronger than testing it? That said, I don't think very many mothers could pull this off. I still like the point: "Nothing is fun until you're good at it". So very true.

Post 4

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mike Erickson wrote:

I've never gotten past the community college level. I work as an engineer but I'm well aware of my deficits compared to my well educated colleagues.

Please share with us the full story on this. Becoming an "engineer" today normally requires completing a bachelor of science degree at a university certified by the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET). I see nothing wrong with a "good enough" college that lets someone earn a productive living in his chosen career. Much of "university life" amounts to pompous hot air anyway. I have learned the hard way: The excellent is the enemy of the adequate.

Regarding memorization, that is my pet peeve. I never memorized all 50 states and their capitals despite the demands of my elementary school teachers. Bitches! One teacher caught me cheating. Boo-hoo. Nothing came of it. Einstein had the right idea when he refused to memorize his own telephone number, observing that he could read it in the nearest telephone book. I would say the same about much rote material.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/11, 9:07am)


Post 5

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That Chinese mother is teaching her daughter the value and experience of purposefulness, discipline and achievement - so, there is more to that picture than meets the eye.

Mike picked up on some important points - Lulu's independent spirit and the contest of wills. I don't buy into the premise that she is being taught to be submissive. (That business about Asians, particularly Asian women being submissive is a Western myth... or better, a misunderstanding of their concepts of gender roles.) And the business about Asian's being less innovative is probably also a myth that some of us tell one another as we watched the Japanese, then the Koreans, then the Indians, and now the Chinese pull away American business - and not just because of cheaper manual labor.

The differences between Western cultures and most of the Asian cultures is in where the heart of their morality lies. It is more family centered. Both cultures present a duty to family, to community, to nation and to their religions - but the relative weights are very different. Family comes first for the Chinese. Also, the Chinese are much less sensitive, much thicker skinned about criticism or conflict of many kinds than Americans. Hell, most cultures are - including those found among the English, the Germans, the Italians, etc.

I'd say that parenting for high levels of happiness and functionality in a context of rational individualism (as opposed to a high duty-oriented context) is complex and difficult. It requires a tight-rope walk between nurturing independence while teaching drive, discipline and 'testing of wills.'

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would not fault Lulu if she left home after reaching legal adulthood and never spoke to her mother again.

Some "achievements" come at too high a cost.

I will never forget being labeled "gifted" in seventh grade. We had a system of pass-fail grading marked as S for satisfactory or U for unsatisfactory. I hated social studies and did the bare minimum needed for S. Every quarter, my teacher would chastise me for doing only the minimum required. He said he "expected" more from a "gifted" student. Boo-fucking-hoo.

My mother taught the piano. My father "expected" me to learn. He intimidated me. He bullied me. He threatened to spank me. I resisted and never learned. Boo-fucking-hoo.

The awesome children's show The Space Giants played every afternoon after school. I loved that show! It made life enjoyable. Time spent on that joy could have been squandered on social studies or piano practice. I have fond memories of the adventures of Goldar, Silvar, and Gam battling the nemesis Rodak. I feel a deep sense of self-love as I reflect on the time I spent watching that show to make myself happy rather than bending to the wills of overbearing adults who demanded I sacrifice my time to make them happy. Yay-fucking-yay!

This article brings to mind other terms such as "Stockholm syndrome" and "drapetomania" which I will leave to others to explore.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/11, 10:37am)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Luke,

I think you are projecting your childhood experience onto Lulu. I tried to point out in my post that different cultures generate different psychological contexts. I didn't get the idea that Lulu was at all angry with her mother AFTER the incidents came to an end. Her cultural/psychological context was totally different from yours. There was an enduring problem between you and your parents and their approach, that didn't exist between Amy and Lulu: ("...she came to sleep in my bed, and we snuggled and hugged, cracking each other up.")

Clearly, this was a context in which they could have sharp disagreements without any unhealthy emotional residue. This context was one where they could have and express anger without a fear that it would taint the relationship. Some relationships are like that, and some aren't.
-------------

In the article she writes, "I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently."

That's true. Sometimes American parents are projecting a fear of 'what others will think' onto the kids, a fear of not being liked, or a fear of failing, or a fear of not being good enough. Sometimes the parents don't feel a deep-down sense of maturity adequate to being a parent. Their motivations aren't from rational reasons, but out of these fears. The big problem with all of these is that they hit the child, on the subconscious level, as 'this isn't about me, it's about them.' The parents seem weak or brittle or disconnected, and their reasoning seems strained. Even very young children start to pick up on motivations. The first thing a fear-based, or anger-based approach teaches is fear or anger.
-----------------

"...Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything."

This is what I was saying about the culture's moral center. That it is based on a duty to family. In the article it is mentioned as "Confucian filial piety" but it is much more deeply woven than that.
----------------

"...Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children."

Everyone THINKS they know what is best for their children. And if they are the adult and the child is the child, they SHOULD know what is best far more often. The difference here is that the Chinese parent is more confident in their knowledge - and that moral center of the family backs them up.


Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve,

And the business about Asian's being less innovative is probably also a myth that some of us tell one another as we watched the Japanese, then the Koreans, then the Indians, and now the Chinese pull away American business - and not just because of cheaper manual labor. ...


Also, the Chinese are much less sensitive, much thicker skinned about criticism or conflict of many kinds than Americans. Hell, most cultures are - including those found among the English, the Germans, the Italians, etc.




I disagree. I think you're glorifying them too much (the Beautiful People fallacy). Neither of us believe in collectivism, so I am assuming that we're just talking here about statistics, complete with outliers who don't fit the model. I've been to England and Italy, but not to Germany or China. When I, below, talk about the people there, keep in mind that I didn't stay long enough to really get to know the culture thoroughly.

In England, snide comments are thrown around because of quiet desperation. So, what you get is a bunch of people making fun of each other because they are not in a position to better their own lives. If I had the hopeless sense of angst that they do, I'd sit around and sarcastically tease my friends and family, too (either that or I'd take up the hobby of hurting small insects). They don't just have thick skin, they have walls and walls of defense and isolation. These people are withering and dying in psychological foxholes. 

In Italy, communication can be loud and emotional without ramification. And it can start out of nowhere and end abruptly in quiet and peace (if the emotional personal has felt listened to). It's expected for people to get emotional and argue loudly. It's a country populated by 3 year olds. 

The few east-asians I've known were very sensitive. It was really important what you thought of them (like it was for Peter Keating). They had an extra psyhological need for second-hand pride. One guy even attempted suicide based on what someone else thought about him. That's crazy. 

Caveat:
Remember what I said above about statistics. Also keep in mind that I do not offer answers as to the origin (genetic, cultural, etc) of the behaviors I noted above. I just described my past experiences with some people.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/11, 3:14pm)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A question comes up: is this the culture of China or is it the culture of people with high standards?  In the latter case, that would be what moved the grandparents to emigrate, the parents to expect a lot of their children and the children to excel.

This would be a straightforward matter to test, by comparing emigrant Chinese (around the world) with the Chinese back home and by comparing Chinese-Americans with other immigrants in the US.  If the China thesis is correct, you'd expect to find similarities between Chinese families at home and Chinese families abroad over the generations, and a difference between Chinese and other immigrant groups in the US.  If it's the high-standards thesis, you'd expect immigrants from anywhere to show similarities here in the US and differences from the people who stayed in the old country.


Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
These Chinese piano and violin players, how many of them produce original works?

If anything, the article itself and the comments and reflections here suggest that inductive leaps must be properly integrated to be valid.  Generally - to be general here - the differences within groups are greater than the differences across groups.  China is a pretty complicated place.  I saw a documentary about a girl, one of literally millions in the largest human migration in history, happening right now.  Kids from the rural areas come to the cities -- Shanghai, Sherzhen, Guandong -  lie about their age, and work in "sweatshops" to have a chance at success.  Missing from this documentary was the Chinese mother excoriating her daughter to learn the violin.

Are we to believe that Professor Chua came to her success because when she was young, her mother forced her to study law and write sociology three and four hours a day?
World On Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability is a 2002 book published by Yale Law School professor Amy Chua. It is an academic study into ethnic and sociological divisions in regard to economic and governmental systems in various societies. ... She believes that democratization can increase ethnic conflicts when an ethnic minority is disproportionately wealthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_on_Fire

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/11, 7:54pm)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

I'm not sure who you think I'm glorifying or what the "Beautiful People fallacy" is.

I've been to England about 4 times and on two ocassions I was there for several months. I was engaged to an English woman some years ago who lived here in the states. As for Germany and Italy... I've only made short, tourist-like visits so I can't claim to know them that well. As for Asia, I was engaged (at a different time in my life) to a woman in Thailand and I've been there many, many, many times and lived their for as longs as 8 months at a time.

The English as simply more direct and in nearly all circumstances. I saw none of the "quiet desperation" nor the "hopeless sense of angst" you mention. I have no idea who you were spending time with, but I'd as soon not get to know them! The folks I got to know were doctors, sailing instructors, naval aviators, and people who worked with me on my boat (shipwrights, sailmakers, mechanics, etc). I also got to know managers, business owners, corporate executives, and others interested in deep-water sailing and so on. I saw a culture that is more comfortable with speaking their minds. It didn't have anything to do with collectivism versus individualism but rather more of a psychological difference and a bit of an ettiquete difference. I mistook it for being snide or callous but only for a day or so and then saw that instead Americans (modern Americans) have become overly sensitive.

Ed, I know some exceptional people in England and to damn them because their political culture has been on a downward slide doesn't make any sense to me. The people I know are no more responsible for England's problems than you are for us having Obama.

My impression of Italy was that they have given one another permission (on a cultural level) to be more direct as an expression of emotion - as if their particular social-psychology requires the more intense emotional expression and that meant they had to sacrifice being as thin-skinned as we often are. Again, nothing to do with collectivism versus individualism.

The Germans seemed to use rules as a kind of backbone strenghener. If you stray from the rules, they have implicit permission to speak harshly of you and too bad if you don't like it. Some Americans seem to adopt this strategy - to pull some of their psychological strength from rules - to get on a moral high-horse for attacks they wouldn't otherwise make. There it seemed more cultural and here it seems more like this or that individual adopted it as a defense. In Germans this deference to rules does seem to relate to collectivism.

You said "East-Asians" - there are big differences... huge differences between countries. A Chinese lady I did an indepth interview with (6 hours total) for a cultural-psych project told me how much fun it was for the Chinese to tease the Japanese tourists by doing things the Japanese thought to be rude. You are mixing up "face" with sensitive. And no Chinese guy would attempt suicide based upon what someone else thought of him. A Japanese might, but it would depend upon who the other person was and what they thought. I'm not glorifying that - I'm just saying that it won't take you anywhere worth being to make jump to conclusions about cultures so different from ours.

Peter suggests a test that compares recent US immigrants from China. If you measured their children's success (long term successes in career, relationships and happiness, for example) you'd find they do much better than many of the natural American families children of the same age. I'll explain why I think this is the case in another post.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 12

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 5:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Peter Reidy observed:

A question comes up: is this the culture of China or is it the culture of people with high standards? In the latter case, that would be what moved the grandparents to emigrate, the parents to expect a lot of their children and the children to excel.

In my home state of North Carolina, many Hmong refugees have settled. They work very hard. My father rented small plots of land to them for a number of years so they could grow gardens. He also sold them sacks of wheat to feed to their chickens.

In 2005, the state started its Learn and Earn Early College High School program. Based on the one school in the system that I visited, I consider it notable how many of its students are immigrants or children of immigrants. The same goes for the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, founded in 1980, though the latter may have more international types because admissions wants to create a melting pot of "diversity" there.

In any case, I think Peter is right that those who have the gumption to move here, especially from across an ocean, will have more self-motivation that the locals. It seems self-evident. But a formal study would be needed to provide scientific evidence beyond the "anecdotal evidence."

Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
And then there's this:
13 of the 21 Cornell student suicide victims since 1996 have been Asian or Asian-American – and Asian/Asian-Americans comprise only 14% of the total Cornell student body.

See an interesting take on this discussion here.  Here's one quote:
Excelling in our culture is based squarely on “being better than someone else, preferably someone whose parents your parents can’t stand.” I grew up being constantly compared and contrasted with other kids.

Thanks,
Glenn

(Edited by Glenn Fletcher on 1/12, 9:04am)


Post 14

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Is China a nation of Peter Keatings?

Post 15

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Luke, "keeping up with the Joneses" is an Americanism (see below). 

It is impossible to typify a billion people.  Moreover, China is old and unlike the West has a continuous history.  We cannot read hieroglyphics or cuneiform, but their script is legible across the millennia.  So, generalizations are as much projection and intention as fact. 

Ban Zhao (circa 45-116 CE), was a woman who wrote "Admonitions for Women."  Mothers were told to sleep their baby girls at the foot of the bed, not in it, and to give them only a broken piece of clay for a toy, all to teach them how lowly they were.  Sounds bad.  But the same essay tells the woman to make a copy of this and give it to her daughter for when she is a mother. That means that the women were literate and expected literacy.  Fifteen hundred years later, during the Late Ming, instructions for family life told women not to be always nagging their husbands and to be supportive of his new plans.  Clearly,there was a lot of nagging going on and men were making plans.   It is complicated.  (By the same standards, judging from the sermons of Cotton Mather, it is easy to think that Puritans were dour people dressed in black.  But if that were true, why all the sermons?)

Also, we need to keep in mind how singular our ideas of individualism are in the scope of things.  The Chinese are no more collectivist than the Greeks.  Traditionally, all societies were "high context" -- defined by your relationship with other people.  What, after, all was the point of Aristotle's Politics?  It was not to guarantee an individual's right to be different.

In Rome, the Censors looked into people's houses to see if they had too many luxuries.  That was considered the enforcement of republican virtues.  In Plutarch's biography (written in the imperial era) Cato the Censor was praised for working naked in the fields alongside his slaves.

We can find the tendrils and taproots of individualism here and there, but something unique and wonderful happened in the Renaissance.  I have a standard reference book on art medals.  Medals were invented in the Renaissance.  The book is called The Currency of Fame.  People used the format of money made large, overlarge, to carry their own portraits and inscriptions, not as cash for the marketplace, but as gifts of themselves to friends.  To tout your own achievements is still considered impolite.  We have a lot of "Chinese" ideas in our culture.

Mike M.
www.washtenawjustice.com
http:///necessaryfacts.blogspot.com

KEEPING UP WITH THE JONESES The phrase was popularized when a comic strip of the same name was created by cartoonist Arthur R. "Pop" Momand. The strip debuted in 1916 in the New York World. The strip ran in American newspapers for 28 years, and was eventually adapted into books, films, and musical comedies. The "Joneses" of the title were neighbors of the strip's main characters, and were spoken of but never actually seen in person. An alternative explanation is that the Jones's of the saying refer to Edith Wharton's father's wealthy family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses
  

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/12, 10:28am)


Post 16

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is making waves over on Facebook -

http://blog.american.com/?p=24765
http://blogs.babble.com/strollerderby/2011/01/11/the-problems-with-amy-chuas-tiger-mother-hypothesis/
(Edited by robert malcom on 1/12, 10:39am)


Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Post 17

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael maybe it's just me but these two lines sound contradictory:

"It is impossible to typify a billion people"

"The Chinese are no more collectivist than the Greeks."



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 18

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I suppose it's not possible to have an objective discussion about child rearing methods.  Do you think John Galt emerged fully formed as an Objectivist Superman from the womb?  Perhaps it would be useful to speculate on what the early years of John Galt might have been like.  I like Richard Feynmann's descriptions of his father and how he was motivated to learn from his fathers immense curiosity about the world.  Perhaps a Chinese mother and Richard Feynmann's father would be a good combination?


Post 19

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Luke,
I received my basic electronics education in the Navy.  I have about thirty years working in electronics manufacturing companies, mostly small companies, start-ups.  I started at the bottom, worked my way up.  My first engineering job was a surprise to me.  A project was going undone (due to lack of engineering resources).  I was a production/service tech but with a reputation of solving the hard problems.  The engineering manager asked my if I could have a look at the proposed project.  I designed and built the prototype in 2-3 weeks.  After testing and some modifications the prototype was submitted and accepted by our customer.  I was moved to the engineering department, my new business card read "analog circuit designer".   The rest is history, as they say.  I've attended many industry seminars and courses, I have many thousands of dollars worth of test equipment and electronics engineering books and software.  I've always maintained a home lab where I design and experiment for my own pleasure.  I've completed the first two years of the electrical engineering requirements for the UC system at my local community college with a GPA of 3.9, while working full time.  I think my success is mostly due, though, to the fact that I know what I do not know.  I never take it for granted I know everything about a problem at hand.  I always know there's a better solution out there than what I've come up with so far.  I test the crap out of everything, testing beyond specifications and to failure.  I don't like to get blindsided by taking something for granted.  I hope this answers your question.


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.