RoR: Forum

Mike, you should take great pride in your achievements. Thank you for sharing. I encourage you to continue your education. See my video "From Tenth Grader to Professional Engineer in Ten Years or Less" for insights. Having an engineering degree could open new doors for you. I hope you get the key books listed in the video, read the chapters related to your remaining courses, work those problems, and then complete the courses at your nearest university. There are numerous online options now worth investigating as well.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/12, 1:26pm)

Post 21

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 3:11pm

Mike,

Thanks for posting this article. It seems everyone is talking about Amy Chua's article nowadays.

As I am both a Chinese daughter and a Chinese mother, I naturally relate very much to the article. I do share the same parenting principles and values with Amy Chua. Though in execution, I am nowhere near as strict as Amy, not because I disagree with her in principle, but because I really don't have her energy and tenacity to carry things through.

Yes, setting high standard, working hard, doing one's absolute best, that's what we expect of our children. We use both positive and negative means to motivate them. Amy obviously knows her children's potential and therefore she pushes them hard. There are also other aspects in traditional Chinese philosophy that influence Chinese parenting that are not mentioned in her article. For example, while it is a child's filial duty to obey his parents, parents have the obligation to raise their children under the best condition they can provide. It is a crime of the parents if they don't care for or discipline their children. I wouldn't want to have my own child write something like Mike's post #3 when he grow up.

My teenager son knows me very well. Once, he got 96 in a math exam. The first thing I said to him was "how did you get deducted 4 points?" He looked at me and said "I've predicted that's exactly what you would say!" Oh, well. At least, I have a much broader view of what activities are worthwhile and in the end, he is very much free to pursue his various interests.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/12, 5:43pm)

Post 22

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 6:17pm

Steve,

I'm not sure who you think I'm glorifying or what the "Beautiful People fallacy" is.

The Beautiful People fallacy is where we fantasize about far away lands where the rivers flow with milk and honey -- it's a grass-is-greener-over-there fallacy. It was actually dubbed the "Beautiful People Myth" by Michael Shermer in his book: The Borderlands of Science.

When you said certain groups were more innovative and less insecure than Americans, I think you were glorifying them too much. It's probably okay to glorify them somewhat, but not to the point of saying that they as a whole are better (even in such restricted arenas as innovation and psychological security).

Ed, I know some exceptional people in England ...

Point conceded. English people can, and often do, rock.

My impression of Italy was that they have given one another permission ...

Point partially conceded. Even still, according to my hypothesis, even getting the permission (to act like a 3 year old) wouldn't necessarily be a good thing. I get what you are saying though. A peer of mine remarked that Italians don't hold grudges -- because they let it all out as it comes in.

This is sort of like a book I faintly remember. It was either "Zen & the Art of Motorcyle Maintenance" or it was "Way of the Peaceful Warrior". In the book (author: Dan Millman?), I remember something about feelings. We're supposed to feel our feelings. Not just a little, either. In fact, we are supposed to feel our feelings so deeply and thoroughly, that when we are done there is nothing left to feel.

Stub your toe? Then scream like a madman in writhing pain. Get loud. Get real loud. Shake. Yell. Scream. Throw things. And when you are done -- the author semi-promised -- you will feel pain no longer. You will have felt all that you can feel, and that is the is the purpose of emotions (to give us short roller-coaster rides). The army says to 'be all you can be'. This book said to 'feel all you can feel' (for short, sparse intervals). I wonder if it has been translated into Italian. But now I am starting to digress.

The Germans seemed to use rules as a kind of backbone strenghener. ... In Germans this deference to rules does seem to relate to collectivism.

Point well taken. Of course, as you may have already ascertained from years of reading my own writing ... I'm part German.

I can feel my "German-ness" inwardly compelling me toward rule-worship, like the Italians are, at least statistically, compelled toward whim-worship. In order to be completely objective and rational -- something which I attain much more often than "average people" do -- I have to fight my inner tendencies to worship rules. Of course, this seems like I'm advancing evidence that genes affect your character -- which can lead to ideas like eugenics and gas chambers -- but I'm not willing to go on record as saying anything of the sort.

Perhaps my inner disposition or tendency to worship rules has nothing to do with the fact that I have ancestors who resided in Germany. It could be mental laziness, for example. It's real easy (in the short run) to follow rules. Anyway, now I digress.

You said "East-Asians" - there are big differences...

Point well taken.

Japanese, being descendents from both the Koreans and the ancient Ianu, may carry the culture or genome required for their differential rates of suicide. The 'people of the orient' of which I spoke were, in fact, Korean. The Chinese might not be susceptible to committing suicide like some other 'east-asians' seem, at first glance, to be. Perhaps it's because they don't care what others think of them, or perhaps that they don't care what they think of themselves. Perhaps they do care, but in more life-affirming ways. Anyway, I digress again.

It's easy to digress on this subject.

:-)

Ed

p.s. I'm secretly fond of emotional, Italian women. I really like the twin-idea of openness and honesty (among other things). I guess I could really go for just honesty, though -- which means I could be thoroughly happy with an Asian gal. She may not wear her heart on her sleeve, but she'd show you her heart if you asked her to.

It's hard to find good American women (which supports Steve's hypothesis), but that's because of Kant. Everything (bad) is because of Kant.

You can track Kant's thought to the current sentiments in this country today. I just conversed with two of my blood relatives -- one male, one female -- about how you can know what to do (with your life). They both parroted answers that'd receive glowing admiration from old Immanuel the Spirit-Destroyer. Aagh. It can be terrible to be a hero nowadays. Then again, I suppose there was never a good time to be a hero. Willfully mediocre people always tugging at your coat-tails, pulling you down. Anyway ... yeah, you guessed it correctly ... I digress.

:-)

Of course, most of this talk is, or can be (if it descends into collectivism), complete and utter gibberish. One has to attempt to speak about it experientially (existentially?) -- without jumping to hasty generalizations about groups of people (collectivism). Anyway, I tried to do that. I might have failed. But I tried. I often do. [long pause] I'm starting to think I may have forgotten to take my medication. Does anyone else out there get that impression?

;-)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/12, 6:38pm)

Post 23

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 7:17pm

I think that there's an important point that has been missing here. The whole strategy of the Chinese mother tactic is to prevent the child from making mistakes, either in life choices or in knowledge. This may lead to distinguished careers as musicians, and so on, but I'm unconvinced that they are as innovative, spontaneous and perhaps happier than those who have grown up with a somewhat less strict upbringing and have been allowed to make mistakes and learn from them. The mother's traditional values, whether they be in classical music or art, for instance, will slow down any non-traditional efforts in the children. Are there any notable Chinese jazz musicians? There are plenty of classical musicians.

It seems to me that truly original concepts arise from an uninhibited frame of mind and the authoritarian approach to upbringing must certainly constrain a leap of brilliance.

Of course I may be wrong and examples refuting that premise will be forthcoming.

Sam

Post 24

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 7:54pm

People make the mistake of thinking that the Japanese moved ahead of American auto companies because of American auto unions, the lower cost of labor, the lower amount of regulation, etc... and those ARE all important contributors, but the fact is that the Japanese innovated in engineering, management, administration, and manufacturing process. Anyone who has owned a Japanese vehicle and an American one can see that. They make better cars than we do - due to innovation. They have also taken the lead in in many areas of electronics and robotics.

It is a mistake to think that a sustained capacity to innovate doesn't require personal discipline. There is a big difference between being allowed to make mistakes, and never being encouraged to succeed. To become a classical pianist or a jazz pianist are both paths littered with many, many mistakes that have to learned from in order to succeed.

Despite the fact that Jazz is American and despite the fact that music is culturally biased (do the Chinese like Jazz as much as Americans?), Wikipedia has 1,930 entries under "Chinese Jazz Musicians"

Here is a simple fact: Every person innovates in some way. It is the key feature of humans. We imagine a difference between what we know and what might be. It could be a way to drive to work that is faster, it could be a better way to communicate with a co-worker, it could be a better way to phrase a sentence, it could be an improved electronics component... the list is endless. We imagine what isn't but could be. The more things that exist, the more things there are to improve - that's why technology expands exponentially.

Post 25

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 8:25pm

Steve:
"It is a mistake to think that a sustained capacity to innovate doesn't require personal discipline."

I totally agree that personal disciple is necessary, but it can be applied in different ways and I still contend that the linear, drum beat approach can be overdone. Rote learning such as the times tables are certainly necessary and I was astounded when I was tutoring 5th and 6th graders math that they still weren't fluent in that skill.

I'm thinking of the trial-and-error garage tinkerers that are so part of the American tradition. Steve Jobs is the quintessential exponent.

Sam

Post 26

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 8:36pm

Sam,

I've been extremely impressed with Steve Jobs, but maybe in a slightly different way. I don't know of anyone in the industry that is a harder driver. He takes his vision of the future and then he is relentless in his drive, and in how demanding he is off everyone around him, to bring that vision into being - and in a state of near perfection. He is the Chinese mother of Apple's excellence. He cracks the whip and makes them live up to his vision of what he knows they can do. And his personal preference is a little more authoritarian than I like in some ways. You can't write software the way you want to for any of his platforms... only in the way he wants. He had to be brought into the world of common standards and open architecture kicking and screaming.

Post 27

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 9:31pm

Hong,

I hoped you might see this thread and reply. I thought of you when I read the article the first time. I like the approach, in my mind it is the most compassionate approach. It is hard to learn discipline if we are not made to be disciplined. I was fortunate to have a couple of managers early on in the workplace who had high standards and forced me to pay attention to every detail. One guy was a real asshole, I mean a real asshole. He'd pick on some really minor omission out of weeks of work and say "Don't bring me this F'n garbage". God, do I remember him. But I really, really went over every detail of every project after that before submitting it.

One experience I had taking Physics sticks with me. I never studied seriously until taking the Calculus and Physics series for scientists and engineers at the local community college. I did really well but I had to study, and first learn to study. During the last semester of physics I was doing a derivation from first principles of the speed of light, I think. It came out perfectly. I unexpectedly had a feeling rush over me, I was simply awed. I had to use much of what I'd spent the last couple of years learning to do this problem. Each step we had lab experiments, proving every law, hammering in the basics. Everything finally tied together. I'm sitting there thinking "this is really real, this is how everything works, all these simple things, put them together, you have everything there is." It was like I was staring into the face of god. I had goosebumps running down my back. I was in a state of awe for several days. The problem is, I was forty years old. I should have had that experience when I was your son's age. I didn't have the self discipline until I was a very mature adult to force my mind along that path.

I think how children are educated is the key to future civilization. The left knows this, that's why they want to take education away from parents and make is a "socialization" experience, brainwashing children into being little leftist sheep. Perhaps Montessori is an antidote to that. Perhaps "Chinese Mothers". Or perhaps the principles haven't been fully identified yet. I think you're close. Your son is a very lucky person. Best wishes always for you and your family.
-Mike Erickson

Post 28

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 9:38pm

Luke,
Thanks for your compliment and encouragement. I watched a few minutes of your video and I like it very much. I will watch the whole thing this weekend. I will recommend it to a couple of people. For myself, I'm approaching retirement! Well, not for a few years, but I am 62 now. I hope to go back to school but I planned on taking physics again, and all the astronomy courses I can find. I'd like to move to Arizona in the mountains near Flagstaff and spend my evenings staring at the stars with the telescope I haven't bought yet. If the world hasn't fallen down around our ears, that is.
Your video does seem very good. You have a pleasant, but no nonsense voice. Motivating. Good job.

Post 29

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 11:20pm

Steve,

Anyone who has owned a Japanese vehicle and an American one can see that. They make better cars than we do - due to innovation.

This was true in the 80's and 90's, but it is not true today.

Ford's Fusion (Motor Trend's 2010 Car of the Year) is a good example. Projected resale value on a Ford Fusion is higher than on a Toyota Camry. The Fusion is a better car than the Camry, or the Nissan Altima, for that matter. Anyone who has owned late models of these cars can see that.

We make a better car than they do -- due to innovation.

:-)

Ed

Post 30

Wednesday, January 12, 2011 - 11:59pm

Ed,

"Projected resale value" - projected by who? Are you saying that isn't a marketing ploy? And this is the car being built in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico, on the CD3 platform, which is Mazda's current GG chassis, right?

Here is the data from Kelly Blue Book:

...........Ford...........................Toyota
...........Percent........Ford........Percent.......Toyota
AGE....of NEW... .Amount......of New.....Amount
New.... 100%.......$19,695.00..... 100%.....$19,820.00
2.........48%.........$9,453.60........55%.......$10,901.00
3.........39%.........$7,681.05........46%.........$9,117.20
4.........31%.........$6,105.45........37%.........$7,333.40
5.........25%.........$4,923.75........30%.........$4,923.75

Looks to me like Toyota wins every single projected year.

But lets go back to the argument. I said that the Japanese innovated - now, if Ford is in the process of catching up, that is great! But it hardly invalidates my argument.

Do you really want to make the argument about the new Ford model versus Toyota... or is the more important discussion about what this key human characteristic: innovation? :-)

Post 31

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 4:54am

My "discipline" came from being forced to work on my father's farm. After years of chasing cows and trudging through their excrement, not to mention shoveling wheat, hauling hay, driving tractors, and generally slaving, I had a very strong motivation to live a better life. Education was obviously the way out.

So far, I think the Montessori method looks like the most humane and compassionate way to cultivate focus, the root of self-discipline.

It is hard for me to emphasize enough the unimportance of "excellence" in the big scheme of things. Constantly striving for it creates undue stress and deprives the striver of enjoyment of other activities. Some tasks, such as brain surgery, demand such hard work and focus. Others, such as cleaning the bathroom, do not. All actions come with a cost and a benefit. The question remains: What are the cost and benefit of excellence versus adequacy? Allow me to cite from my review of an important book:

Slacker: One who has developed a method of operation that requires less than half the effort of the average person's, while achieving comparable results, thereby freeing up time to pursue more enjoyable activities.

After I graduated, I had a major surprise. My new employer offered me a job for fairly decent cash, and he never once
1. asked about my college;
2. asked to see my diploma.
Would he be paying me more if I'd gone to Yale or Harvard?

I know I could apply for a hundred jobs, each time claiming a different college as my alma mater, and never get caught. If nobody checks, how important can it be? [...] And what about those other hassles -- grade point average, attendance record, class rank? Meaningless. Corporate interviewers want to know if you can turn a profit for the company. They don't care how you did in Biology 101.

But enough philosophy. In their way, your parents and teachers were right: If you want a well-salaried career, get a degree. The days when you could work your way up from the mail room to corporate mogul are long gone. [...] (The bad news: You wanna ride the train, you gotta have a ticket. The good news: Once you have it, nobody looks at it.)

Enough!

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/13, 6:27am)

Post 32

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 5:24am

Steve,

I realize it's minor but I'm sticking to my guns. By the way, following your lead, I did that Blue Book search and your retrieval numbers for the Camry (from same website?) don't match mine. I'm looking at the 2010 models only:

...........Ford...........................Toyota
...........Percent........Ford........Percent.......Toyota
AGE....of NEW... .Amount......of New.....Amount
New.... 100%.......$19,695.00..... 100%.....$19,395.00
2.........48%.........$9,453.60........47%.......$9115.65
3.........39%.........$7,681.05........39%.........$7564.05
4.........31%.........$6,105.45........31%.........$6012.45
5.........25%.........$4,923.75........26%.........$5042.70
--http://www.kbb.com/new-cars/toyota/camry/2010/resale-value?id=248546

The info I was originally working off of comes from:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ford-vehicle-residual-values-rise-1300-on-average-from-2009-to-2010-model-year-industrys-largest-gain-79604217.html
... where Ford kicked the crap out of Toyota.

The take-away point is that there is no longer a quality-superiority of Japanese cars over American. American cars nowadays often run hundreds of thousands of miles without major repairs. There was a time when only German and Japanese cars could do something like that. That time is gone now.

Ed

Post 33

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 7:31am

American car companies were the ones that were innovative in the SUV and pick-up truck market and the Japanese were trying to catch up. They couldn't make as cheap a sedan as the Japanese could but since SUVs were considered a luxury vehicle the higher labor costs associated with the UAW were more absorbed into the sticker price, (i.e. it would be an expensive vehicle to begin with being an SUV). But with the rise in gas prices SUVs are not as popular as they used to be.

Post 34

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 8:11am

Steve:

He had to be brought into the world of common standards and open architecture kicking and screaming.

During this time, Jobs experimented with psychedelics, calling his LSD href="http://rebirthofreason.com/wiki/LSD">LSD experiences "one of the two or three most important things [he had] done in [his] life".^[35] He has stated that people around him who did not share his countercultural roots could not fully relate to his thinking.^[35]

^{I'm not arguing in the least that Jobs isn't a hard driving, focussed task master; on the contrary. However, he obviously doesn't fit the model of an obedient, unquestioning pupil.}

^{I'm influenced in my personal opinion by the process by which I learn. It's almost all by induction and trial and error. In my engineering studies I'd attend lectures to get a context for the subject, go home, examine the exercises to see what was the object, examine the Schaum's Outline examples and try to follow them, and then read the chapter in the text to try to get it all together. Admittedly, this in inefficient if one has the smarts to do it otherwise but I think it had advantages in being able to think out of the box. It's certainly non-linear. I've always had a poor memory and I would always have to go back to basic principles rather than remember a certain formula, for example.}

^Sam

Post 35

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 10:49am

Hong wrote:

For example, while it is a child's filial duty to obey his parents, parents have the obligation to raise their children under the best condition they can provide.

I recall a conversation here years ago about this. It had to do with how much freedom of association children could legitimately demand from their parents while still on their dole. (The specific context was dating.) Adam Reed said aloud that parents owe their children an education without demanding obedience in return. I bellowed "Bullshit!" on that claim. I thought it was funny later how Adam's daughter came to the board and made creepy accusations against him. Obviously his parenting methods led to outcomes other than gratitude for the "education" and "non-obedience" she supposedly enjoyed.

My own take models that of Objectivist psychologist Dr. Michael Hurd. He argues for the "freedom/responsibility" principle, meaning that parents ought to grant their children as much freedom as they can responsibly handle. I would caveat that with a cash flow consideration. Rich parents can afford to bail their kids from trouble while poor ones cannot. So I can hardly blame poor parents for restricting the freedoms of their dependent children with that consideration in mind. In fact, ultimately, the demand for freedom should answer my "Six Words to Shut Their Traps": "Show me your cash flow statement."

Any child who demands freedom of action without commensurate responsibility for consequences lives in a world of willful self-delusion. Parents have an obligation to supply their children with the educational path that makes them productive to the point of financial independence as soon as possible. All other child-rearing goals need to fall into service to that overarching goal.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/13, 11:21am)

Post 36

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 1:46pm

Luke,

Virgina Satir was a great family therapist for working with teens and the lesson she taught them was that they could get freedom, but the only way was to pay in advance with the appropriate level of responsibility. When they really grasped that, it was a game changer for them.

Post 37

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 2:11pm

Ed,

My apologies. I put together my little chart by using two different pages and didn't notice that they represented two different years (2011 and 2010). Ford wins, but as your chart shows, they only win by a very small amount (and this after a decade or so of losing badly).
--------------

I said, "Anyone who has owned a Japanese vehicle and an American one can see that. They make better cars than we do - due to innovation. They have also taken the lead in in many areas of electronics and robotics."

I should have changed that second sentence to read, "For a long time, they made..." (past tense)

I find it silly that you want to dwell on the least significant detail of an minor example of an argument in such a way to totally avoid the actual issue: Are Asians are capable of significant innovation? I maintain that people who think that they aren't are dwelling at a low level of superficial stereotyping in this area. I've lived in S. E. Asia, and I believe that old image of Asians as robotic and only capable of copying is absurd.

Post 38

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 5:15pm

http://www.tvkim.com/watch/326/kims-picks-north-korean-girl-guitarist

Steve:

I believe that old image of Asians as robotic and only capable of copying is absurd.

I have only been arguing that the severe "Chinese mother" approach might not foster innovation as well as a little softer tactic. I don't believe that children of Chinese mothers are robotic or incapable of innovation ... just that they might be more so, otherwise.

Check this out:

Sam

Post 39

Thursday, January 13, 2011 - 6:41pm