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Post 60

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting, horrifying, and amusing.

At the end I wondered if her children ever developed an imagination?  Whom and what do they admire (besides mom, of course)? Did they ever play? Personally, I consider play to be a child's productive work.


Post 61

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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For those who love their careers, work is play.

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Post 62

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa I think you bring up a good point. Can you develop any kind of creativity and imagination when someone else has taken control of every minute of your life and planned out every minute of your day?

When I visited Greece last year I spoke with one of my first cousins that teaches at University of Athens. She lamented that her students when given some leeway on an assignment seemed lost and confused on what they should do. She said these days kids are enrolled in all kinds of extracurricular activities because their parents want the absolute best for them. Although it was probably a bit of a superfluous observation on my part, I told her I couldn't help but think because these kids were constantly told how to spend their time that when they entered college, when given some freedom on what to do with their time (asked to be creative on an assignment) the students would obviously not know what to do because they have been conditioned to receive instructions on what to do their entire childhood. "What, do something on my own? But mom and dad always planned out every minute of my day! What do I do?!" I don't know, figure it out on your own!

I'm not saying that it's better to plunk a kid down in front of a T.V., but sometimes I think you need to teach a kid to fend for himself. Go, get out of the house! Play! Here's some free time, figure out what you want to do!

By the way I do not think Asia has cornered the market on innovation. Almost every major industry that has been created since the Industrial Revolution was created here in America, only to be exported later. Cars? Who started that industry? Computers? Dot coms? Financial services? Stem cell research? All of it industries created by the imaginative minds of American entrepreneurs.



(Edited by John Armaos on 1/14, 9:24pm)


Post 63

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,
Chua certainly is not everyone’s cup of tea. But I do share her values in parenting. Actually what she described are quite familiar to me, if you water it down a bit. The only thing I don’t do is to call my son bad names.

When my son brought home bad grades last year, I also screamed and shouted, and then tried to work with him to improve his performance. Yes, I also consider that for him, in general, a grade below 95% is pretty bad, 98% or 99% maybe OK, and if he got 100%, I have an urge to ask “who else in the class also got 100%?” (If other kids also got 100%, then it’s not a big deal). Of course this is not absolute. If he really did his best (such as spending hours and hours studying, which he rarely does) and still got a B, it would be OK and even better than an effortless 100%.

Just last week, when he got a 3rd place in a very competitive math competition, both his dad and me are surprisingly pleased. I told him so and he mocked me “Oh, my parents have so low expectation of me, I am so hurt! Waa, waa”. I think he takes our criticism and praise very well.

There was even a similar instance when I forced my son to memorize and perfect a particular piano piece before he could finish the day’s practice (for about half or one hour longer, instead of well-into the night). In fact, my son also plays both piano and violin, just like Chua’s daughter.

I don’t forbid my son to go to playdates, sleep-overs or play an instrument other then piano and violin, because I think these things are OK. He played percussions for two years in school band and I always enjoyed his concert. Who wouldn’t want to play percussions?! I also encourage him to do sports and be more social. But he himself prefers to be a nerd. He doesn’t play video game, doesn’t do Facebook, doesn’t watch much TV, and doesn’t do a lot of things that I might have had to forbid him to do. Maybe Chua’s daughters are like that too. Maybe they are happy to pursue music and academics, to be the No 1, and to play solo at the Carnegie Hall? Why is it not possible? I know that all the kids in my son’s orchestra were absolutely thrilled when they played at Dallas’ Meyerson Symphony Center. My son also gets great satisfaction whenever he found a simple and elegant solution for a particularly tough math problem. (Mike Erickson obviously are still like that :)). He enjoys making up math tasks and asking me to solve it (urrrrrrrrgh). When parents like Chua and her husband work hard and set examples of excellence, children take notes. It’s not hard. All parents raise children in their own images and according to their values. It’s only natural. Chua herself comes from a family with a typical traditional Chinese scholar’s values. That’s exactly what she’s trying to install in her children.

I notice that many people here actually have not raised kids. They may not realize that many kids are actually very smart, adaptive and resilient. They deserve much more than we usually give them credit for. There was one incident in my son’s class last year that’s very telling. The class overall did poorly on a science test and the science teacher remarked that this class was the worst among the four classes that he had taught so far. This remark caused an outrage among many parents. I asked my son and his friends what did they think (my son got 100% on that particular test, BTW). They said that since the fact was that they did get the lowest average, then what the teacher said was simply true. They thought those parents were overreacting and they were sillier than the kids. So, folks, don’t do that.

I don’t know exactly what is behind the Asian girls who commit suicide. Are they all because of their parents? Actually this question itself is silly. Grown-ups should be responsible for their own action instead of blaming other people.

Many comments about communism, individualism, etc, are simple too far a stretch. Chua’s family is traditional Chinese and they never lived in communist China. And the communistic traits are not uniquely Chinese. It’s everywhere. As for individualism, let’s respect Chua and her family’s individual choice. She obviously has no intention of imposing her method on others. As you may have detected in this post of mine that I have been bragging about my son. I think that's what Chua had done as well - bragging about her daughters and mocking herself. Her pride in her children is tremendous and she showed much respect for them now that they are old enough. I am absolutely certain that her two girls will grow up to be wonderful adults, despite all these media brouhaha.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/14, 9:51pm)


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Post 64

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, there are a lot of talks about creativity.

I agree that strict discipline and hard work will not make a person more creative and imaginative. But will it necessarily destroy a person's creativity? I don't think so. Take Mozart and Beethoven, both had "Chinese mother" type of father and were mercilessly driven to practice when they were young.

On the other hand, an innately creative person will not achieve anything if he doesn't exert himself.

Post 65

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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So what is it with the violin and piano thing? Seems strange to place some higher value on those instruments over all others. LOL, does China's musicians only play those two instruments? They must have a hard time forming a full orchestra :)

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Post 66

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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I see my own childhood experience in the way Chua is parenting her children, to a certain extent. I think Chua is a little too extreme and in some instances irrational (only piano and violin? huh?) My parents were very critical of me if I didn't get a good grade, they enrolled me in Greek grammar school and forbid me from having sleep overs. When I was accepted to B.U. my mother was disappointed it wasn't an ivy league school like Harvard. But I must say they definitely gave me unstructured time. My Dad definitely would tell me to get out of the house and get out his hair! I wasn't enrolled in a lot of extracurricular activities and my summers were always free. No way was my childhood that choking. Degrading a child by calling him names is pretty deplorable. I don't see how that's anything less than child abuse. But I was certainly told plenty of times by my mother I was too fat, but, fatty? No. No degrading insults. Honest truth but no degrading comments like that.

By the way I looked up suicide rates by country, South Korea is second and Japan is sixth (according to wikipedia) and the U.S. is 40th. Maybe there's an Aristotelian golden mean that should be sought after here between laissez-faire parenting and extreme and very strict parenting?


(Edited by John Armaos on 1/14, 11:03pm)


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Post 67

Friday, January 14, 2011 - 11:45pmSanction this postReply
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I grew up next-door to a family who escaped here from the Middle East. The parents were very strict and demanded academic excellence from the kids. The kids weren't allowed very much free time at all. There were 3 children. The nicest people I ever had dinner with. It was like having dinner with Ward Cleaver's family. Everything seemed picture-perfect and full of love.

All 3 kids had eventual falling-outs with the parents (mostly with the father). The father was strict, everyone knew that, but he was such a grand gentleman in public. The father was more than just strict, though. All 3 kids feared him, "joining ranks" with the mother. A birth in that family was like getting drafted into the army, only worse. They had an extremely good reason to fear their father. The son threatened the father's life (before attempting to take his own). It gave me a new perspective.

Sometimes, outwardly-perfect families are actually terrible basins of unrepentant evil. Sometimes, being strict and demanding excellence from your kids doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with actual love or with loving them.

Ed


Post 68

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 2:37amSanction this postReply
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Can anyone here talk about a happy slacker family where everyone got along fine with passing grades and spent free time doing what they felt like doing?

My only real incentive my entire life for earning good grades was just to feel good about myself and eventually to spin the flax into gold. (I also loved science my entire life so earning good grades was like play time for me in that subject.) I do recall being a total slacker in first grade. My mother forced me to sit down at the dinner table and actually do the writing assignments. I hated it but I did it anyway. After I realized I could never get away with the slacking, I stopped slacking.

My father never seemed to understand the time required in middle school to complete homework assignments. I would get home from school, he would be gone to his second shift day job, and he would have some "sonny do" farm work written on a note on the kitchen counter for me. That would take all evening and leave no time to complete the damned homework. I still got passing grades on my report cards but failed a few individual assignments because of that. Bah!

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/15, 2:50am)


Post 69

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 6:51amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Hong. Thanks for the response. This topic has been in the news a lot lately. Chua has been on NPR, on the Today Show, and she has responded to some of her critics in the WSJ. Apparently the "Chinese Mother" described in the WSJ article was the "early" Chua. She admits that she had to change her methods as her daughters got older. I don't know how she adapted; it's in the book, so if anyone ends up reading it, please let me know. But, on the Today Show they showed her younger daughter, Lulu, playing tennis; something she had chosen herself. What a novel concept!

Again, I see a big difference between your methods and the methods of Chua. And that big difference is your son's having some (if not a lot) of choice. You say he prefers to be a nerd. That's great; that's his choice.

Anyway, I appreciate your remarks and I wish you further luck in your difficult job as a parent.

Thanks,
Glenn

Post 70

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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"So what is it with the violin and piano thing?"

I think they are like King and Queen of Western music instruments, aren't they? There are so much more solo music written for these two instruments than for any others.

Post 71

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the well wishes.

To comment on several other posts in this thread - Amy Chua actually said in one of her interviews that Chinese kids are no more smarter than Western or American kids. They just work harder, partially because of their cultural background, family expectations, and parental pressure, etc. I very much agree with her there.


(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/15, 10:02am)


Post 72

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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the violin and piano are so used for more fundamental reason - they alone of the instruments signify 1)vocal substitute and 2)choral...played by a single person...

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Post 73

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I'd say that bag-pipes and accordians do these tasks equal or better than do violins and piano. So I am now prepared to tell you the answer on why mothers choose piano and violin for their kids: It's because they have "social clout" (second-hand reverence).

Piano and violin are "exquisite." They are "high-brow." Picture top-hatted men taking pastel-faced women clad in billowing dresses to hear the maestro: Victoria ... are you enjoying the performance? Oh, yes, William. It is such a grand experience. Like honey poured ino my ears. Oh how splendid, darling. I do love you so. Oh dearest me. All my friends will be jealous whence they learn of my partaking in this delectable event.

Ed

p.s. It is unlikely just a coincidence that Hong utilized royalty as a metaphor for piano and violin.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/15, 3:22pm)


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Post 74

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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LOL!

Post 75

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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JA Post #17: Michael maybe it's just me but these two lines sound contradictory:
"It is impossible to typify a billion people"
"The Chinese are no more collectivist than the Greeks."

You are right: it was too easy of a glide.  I did explain that I was speaking of high-context societies.  High-context societies place value on long-term, family-orientation relationships between people.  As Don Vito Corleone cautioned: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."  So, if you use even Google Scholar and search for "individualist versus collectivist societies" you will find statistically valid samplings that array people along axes. 

I am looking at two textbooks, one for organizational behavior (business management), the other for social psychology (sociology).  They present broadly similar facts: Mexico is collectivist; New Zealand is individualist; and so on.  They do differ in the studies the present, and  the characteristics they measure.

No matter the numbers, of course, samples do not define individuals.  There are 1.1 billion people i China.  If only 1/10 of one percent of them are individualists as we understand the term, that's 1.1 million.  You cannot ignore that.  So, that is why I caution against writing off the entire nation as "collectivist" though predominanlty, its culture is so, just as ours is individualist.

Oddly enough, perhaps, the former East Germany, Hungary, and Romania now evidence individualisms within the population.  Perhaps they were supressed or officially denied, but -- again as you and I would understand it - these are people who have no church, thin or no religion, little trust for the state, and lingering suspicions about their neighbors.  Though statistics do not define individuals.

Moreover, though 90% of the Chinese are Han, they have 80 distinct ethnic groups.  The cultures are not all the same.  One map I have here of Africa shows the whole continent to be "collectivist" but another chart in another book finds Kenyan undergraduates only less individualist than their American counterparts and way more so than the Masai.   So, it is always important to be explicit and I was not.


Post 76

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 3:52pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, for all that I love bagpipes, let's be honest - the only vocal substitute they for is stepping on cats' tales... ;-)

if the only piano that comes to mind to you is the grand, ye missing a lot - seen, and used to own one, so many parlor uprights in non-ritzy homes over the years of growing up, the elitist attitude ye expressing is plain silly... and as for 'social acceptance', ALL instruments [with perhaps the accordion exception, except for polka players ;-)] are social instruments...

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Post 77

Saturday, January 15, 2011 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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John asks, "So what is it with the violin and piano thing?"

Hong replied: "I think they are like King and Queen of Western music instruments, aren't they? There are so much more solo music written for these two instruments than for any others."

Yes, I think you are correct, Hong. If I'm not mistaken, the piano and violin were traditional Western instruments that American children were taught to play. I know they were popular with my parents and grandparents. I was not introduced to either of them, however, so there was definitely a break in tradition there. I wonder if the Chinese and Asian cultures have simply adopted this American musical tradition upon moving to the West and are now carrying it on, or if these instruments were common in the East as well.

I think the best influence that parents can have on children is to set a good example. If the parents have a personal interest in the kinds of educational and cultural activities that they want their children to be interested in, it can make a difference. Kids that get poor grades often come from single-parent families or those in which the parents are non-intellectual or anti-intellectual, have few if any books in the home, are on public assistance, abuse drugs or alcohol and are in other respects dysfunctional.

I still think it's inappropriate for parents to browbeat their children into getting good grades. Parents should certainly stress the importance of good study habits and work with their children to acquire these skills, but they should not make their children feel terrified to reveal anything less than a high or perfect test score. Some of the instructors at my college are reluctant to give their Asian students poor grades, because they know what awaits the students when their parents find out.

The individualism issue pertains to the relationship between the parents and their children, not between the parents and the rest of society. While domineering parents may be acting "individualistically" vis-a-vis the rest of society, they are not doing so with respect to their own children if they don't allow the children an appropriate amount of freedom to choose their own goals and values. Of course, children have to be supervised and subject to age-appropriate restrictions, but they must also be given a measure of freedom and personal choice, if they are to develop a healthy psychology.

In Post 13, Glenn refers to an article that I found fascinating. In the article, Jane Chin writes about her own experience as a child and the depression it fostered:

http://www.chinspirations.com/mhsourcepage/asian-students-depression-and-suicide-begin-with-the-parents

"Asian American students are expected to excel. More accurately, 'be better than.' Excelling in our culture is based squarely on “being better than someone else, preferably someone whose parents your parents can’t stand.' I grew up being constantly compared and contrasted with other kids. Why couldn’t I play the piano and the violin and be the first seed on the Tennis team like so-and-so’s kid? Why couldn’t I speak three languages (Chinese doesn’t count) like so-and-so’s son? Oh- why didn’t I score a perfect 1600 on the SATs and get early admission with full scholarship into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton like those twins? And my favorites: 'You scored a 99% on your test? Why didn’t you get 100%' and 'You scored 100%? How many more students scored 100% in the class?' We’re just never good enough.

"When you are brought up to think of yourself mainly in reference to someone else, you aren’t sure exactly what to think of yourself, or how to see yourself. For most of my life, I saw myself as a portfolio of academic grades, scholarly achievements (or lack thereof), SAT scores (and it was nowhere near 1600), what schools I got into, and whether my chosen vocation would bring pride to my ancestors.

"I haven’t even gotten into the subject of emotional abuse in the Asian household. That would be a whole website in itself.

"Is it any wonder that I suffered from depression most of my childhood, adolescent, and adult life?"

All this is not meant to diminish the value of excellence in academic achievement, which Asian-American students are known for. But, in some cases, it can be pursued at too high a cost. In a recent episode of the "Dr. Phil" show, widespread cheating among students was the subject of discussion. One girl (who was white) said she cheated because she felt pressured to get straight A's, and that was the only way to do it. She said that her mother and her sister were valedictorian, so she had to be valedictorian. I wonder how she would feel if her boyfriend or husband cheated on her.

Perhaps, we should also be teaching our children that winning at all cost is not a desirable goal, and that it's important to keep the values of life in their proper perspective.


Post 78

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 2:09amSanction this postReply
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Good post Bill.

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Post 79

Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 7:39amSanction this postReply
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Bill:

"The individualism issue pertains to the relationship between the parents and their children, not between the parents and the rest of society."

Yes, I understand that. However, young children are not persons yet in that they are not able and not mature enough to make knowledgeable choices. And no, they don't have the freedom to choose which school they'd go to, which subjects they are going to study, or even when to eat or go to sleep. Almost everything need to be taught to them. That's when parents make the most impact on their characters. Hopefully, by the time they are teenagers, they'll be able to make reasonable choices on their own (meaning the choices parents would approve :)).



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