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Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jews and Christians are still free to wear clothes in a "clothing optional" world just as Sikhs are free to wear turbans. I find it interesting how the author fails to address every other faith and only focuses on Marx versus Christ. Man is the "rational animal" and not the "clothed animal" as the author postures. As far as I know, anthropologists explain clothes as a way to protect body parts exposed by the upright walking of humans as well as a defense against harsh elements, e.g. furs in cold climates. I think some primitive tribes in moderate to hot climates still practice "clothing optional" as the norm. That writers like this one can still smuggle these evasions speaks volumes of the ignorance of his target audience.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/08, 7:14pm)


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Post 1

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 10:20pmSanction this postReply
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Tonight as I am working it is -22F plus windchill. I will take option B and wear my winter gear as a rational but cold shivering animal of course!!

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Post 2

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
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The author writes,
Leftism seeks to undo most of the values that are distinct to Judeo-Christian religions. That is why the left has always been so anti-religious and especially anti-Christian. Karl Marx understood that a vibrant leftism and a vibrant Christianity could not coexist. He was right."
On the contrary, Marx had the same altruist/collectivist morality as Christianity. A few Biblical quotations are sufficient to bear this out:
Karl Marx: "From each according to his ability to each according to his need."
Christianity: "All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." Acts 2:44-45
John, the Baptist: "The man who has two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same." Luke 3:11
"The multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common." Acts 4:32
"That in the kingdom of God, every loyal citizen is subordinate joint-owner with God of all things." Rev. 21: 7.
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
"Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the earth."
"When human beings walk around with their genitals uncovered, they are behaving in a manner indistinguishable from animals. A major difference between humans and animals is clothing; clothing separates us from -- and in the biblical view, elevates us above -- the animal kingdom."
Then why did God create Adam and Eve naked? And if the major difference between humans and animals is clothing, then why are people born naked? The basic difference between humans and animals is much more fundamental than the practice of wearing clothes. Even the Christian Scholastics recognized this, for they defined man as "a rational animal," not a clothed one. Clothing is a consequence of rational behavior, not a fundamental characteristic distinguishing man from other animals. The Christian Scholastics got their definition of man, not from the Bible, but from Aristotle, who stated in the Nicomachean Ethics that the human being "has a rational principle," meaning that what differentiates man from other animals is that he functions by means of reason.
"But one of our human tasks is to elevate us above the animal. And covering our genitals is one important way to do that."
This is an arbitrary assertion with no rational support. If the premise is that wearing clothes differentiates us from the animals, it doesn't follow that doing so makes us superior to them. Humans do all sorts of things that animals don't do. Humans commit mass murder, whereas animals don't, but no one would say that this elevates humans above animals.
"The second reason to oppose public nudity also comes from the list of separations: the concept of the holy, or sacred."
There are reasons to oppose public nudity -- such as respect for other people's sensibilities -- but religious dogma is not one of them, for it is even less defensible than public nudity itself.
"For the left, little is sacred -- certainly little in the ways that Jewish and Christian civilization has usually understood the term.

"That is why an 'artist' achieved cult-like status in the left-wing cultural world with a depiction of a crucifix in a jar of his urine. The crucifix is sacred to hundreds of millions of people -- I will pee on it. Or why a major European art award was given to a German artist for his sculpture of a policewoman crouching and urinating (a puddle of her urine was sculptured beneath her). Whatever Judeo-Christian convention held sacred, true believing leftists have sought to desacralize."
One doesn't have to be a Christian to oppose this kind of trashy art, but if we're going to talk about what is sacred, how about the sacredness of human reason and dignity? How rational or sacred is it to idealize the sacrifice of one's very own deity by commemorating his crucifixion at the hands of barbaric Roman soldiers?! If one is a Christian, how uplifting is it for Jesus Christ, one's highest moral ideal, to be treated as a sacrificial animal in order to atone for the moral transgressions of others? If human beings have sinned, why should their God be punished for it? If anything is profane and morally degrading, that certainly is! Even today, Christians in the Philippines celebrate Good Friday by having themselves crucified. Does crucifixion elevate man above the animals?!
"The first thing Adam and Eve discovered after eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was that they were naked. And the first emotion they ever experienced was shame over their nudity.
This doesn't make any sense. Why would Adam and Eve feel ashamed over their nudity, if God created them that way? Quoting the Bible to justify contemporary standards of morality is a dead end, since there are many events in the Bible that are not remotely rational or justifiable, like stoning people to death for working on the Sabbath. Morality should be based on rational standards of value, on the vital needs and values of humans beings, not on the arbitrary dictates of Biblical precedent or of religious authority. The United States is not a theocracy, nor was it ever intended to be.
"San Francisco, America and the west are going to have to choose whether Stardust or the Bible is right. By one vote San Francisco decided in favor of the Bible. But a judge, who may well have Stardust's values, is yet to rule."
As if choosing between "Stardust" and the Bible were the only alternative. Of course, people shouldn't be ashamed of their nakedness, but that also doesn't mean that they should flaunt it on public streets. A decent respect for other people's sensibilities should govern one's social behavior. The city has every right to ban public nudity on city streets, just as a private mall or store has a right to ban it, if it's offensive to its customers. The city owns the streets (whether it should is a different question), and must set standards that accommodate the values of most of the public that uses them." And finally, there's this:
"And it's hard to see why a liberal judge would not rule the law [banning public nudity on city streets] unconstitutional. Because the fact is that there is no secular reason to ban public nudity."
Sure there is, just as there is a secular reason for a business to ban behavior that is annoying to its customers, or for a host to ban behavior that is rude to his guests -- social compatibility. You don't need religion for that. Nor, contrary to the author, would religion qualify as a good reason to ban it. There is in fact no religious reason to ban any kind of bad behavior, because to base morality on commandments would make it entirely arbitrary and subjective. Morality must rest on objective criteria independently of anyone's commandments, in which case, God's commandments cannot themselves be the ultimate standard of morality. Suppose, for example, that God had commanded us to kill the infidels -- as some Muslims have claimed. Would we be justified in obeying that commandment? No? Then the foundation of morality must lie elsewhere -- in the life serving values of man.

Religious authoritarianism has more in common with a collectivist dictatorship than it does with a free society.


Post 3

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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Jules writes,

"Tonight as I am working it is -22F plus windchill. I will take option B and wear my winter gear as a rational but cold shivering animal of course!!"

Holy Icicles, Batman! You Canadians must be some pretty tough customers! Here we are in Northern California, complaining and shivering, because the nighttime temperature has dropped to a "frigid" 47F.

And I say this, as someone who grew up in Minnesota, playing ice hockey outside at night! But we never played in weather that cold. It was usually no colder than about 10 above, which was fine, when you're skating your ass off. In fact, it was rather pleasant. I'd go home afterwards and sleep like a baby. I understand that nowadays in Minneapolis, all the skating rinks are indoors. Unfortunately so, because nothing can replace skating outdoors at night, especially with a gently falling snow. Very pretty!

I will say that I did go skating one day when it was -20F. I was restless, and had to get outside. Not surprisingly, I was the only one on the ice, which was so hard, my skates couldn't cut it. I was slipping and sliding all over the place. That was -20 before they had the wind-chill factor.

Now, as a Callfornian, I've become completely deaclimated. I wouldn't return to Minneapolis, if you paid me. The older I get, the less able I am to handle cold weather.



Post 4

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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http://danieldickey.com/naked-fat-girl-looks-like-homer-simpson/

Another good reason- to keep our eyes from bleeding!

Post 5

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 3:46amSanction this postReply
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Wanna see my images of American coins and banknotes?  When the Greeks moved into the Mediterranean from the north, they gave up clothing.  Women began covering in public about the seventh century BCE.  As late at the 100s BCE, the Roman republican Marcus Porcius Cato was considered virtuous for woking naked in the fields alongside his slaves.  In equatorial climates, clothing is rare, but the natives adorn themselves with necklaces, etc.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/09, 3:51am)


Post 6

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
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Bill about 15 years ago I had the displeasure of having to do what normally would have taken 15 minutes stretched out to about 5 hours. It was -68c thats about -94F and there was no wind. Literally I was outside for 5 minutes and had to go back in the truck for half hour to "defrost!". You HAD to breath veryyy slowly and only in through your nose. If you took a breath through your mouth you would freeze burn your lungs.

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Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 5:24amSanction this postReply
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A BBC series on DVD called The Weather is worth watching. The show talks about how man's means of adaptation to different climates is his brain, hence the invention of clothing, etc. I disliked the nattering about man-made climate change. But the rest is good.

Bill wrote:

"Religious authoritarianism has more in common with a collectivist dictatorship than it does with a free society."

I am currently reading Human Action by Ludwig von Mises and he makes this point repeatedly.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 12/09, 5:27am)


Post 8

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Tonight I watched the youtube vid Ed posted with Glen Beck and Penn Jillette. His chalkboard diagram also stressed that the old "commies on the left nazis on the right" model is completely wrong. I was pleasantly surprized hiw he correctly labeled communism,nazism anddd theocracy all under the same totalitarian banner.

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Post 9

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
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Jules,

I'm still surprised (and incredulous) when people use the European model of "Left and Right" (Commies on the left, Nazis on the right), when they should be using the American model, when speaking of the U.S. political system.

Its the European model which makes people believe that we need to be "moderate" because either extreme of the European model is (or leads to) totalitarianism. It's the European model that leads people to confuse the "rightists" of the U.S. with the "rightists" (i.e. National Socialists) of 1930's Germany (though, to be fair, some "rightists" in the U.S. only differ in degree, not in kind, with the "rightists" of 1930's Germany). 


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Post 10

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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You are right Kyle. When I was in highschool I got kicked out of social studies for the day, the teacher was explaining the european model. I told him there was a better way of explaining it.
Communism is the left butt cheek, the nazi's are the right butt cheek and everrrything in the middle is a big stinking shithole being squeezed from one cheek or the other! Capitalism does not belong on that chart anywhere its like a big freeking boner standing out front and proud! Yes those were my exact words.

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Post 11

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Jules,

You undoubtedly gave your peers an education they will never, ever forget.

XD


Post 12

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 9:00amSanction this postReply
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Jules,

I hope you know that posting such unkempt, rough-around-the-edges language in here breaks just about every orthodox rule for internet manners (rule #1: Don't unnecessarily offend others). That being said, I could not help myself but to reward it with a half-dozen shiny, golden Atlas points! Go figure.

What your post lacked in proper etiquette was surpassed by what it offered in issue-illumination -- a case of one step backward and 5 steps forward. That's actually not that bad of philosophizing from a potty-mouth!

:-)

Ed


Post 13

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Even I cringed at Jules' post, I must be spending to much time around polite folk.

Still, I prefer Jules' crudely expressed truth to eloquently worded bullshit.

I think you do too, Ed.

Additionally, I think Jules' statement was appropriate given the context of a public school, the topic being discussed, and with whom it was being discussed.



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Post 14

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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See this joke posted on this site years ago for some truly foul language!

Post 15

Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Luther,

I must hereby take a brief moment to express that I am really quite fond of the animated motion picture Team America: World Police. Most expressly, the grand speech given in the libation establishment, to one Monsignor Gary Puppet, involving the uncanny similarity of various and sundry anatomical body parts to the preeminent political factions of our present day. I found it to be both terribly poignant and outrageously instructive in a manner in which only a precious few communicative endeavors ever acquire.

I hope this message finds you well.

My very best regards,

Edward
[okay Kyle, maybe you are right!]


Post 16

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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Bill about 15 years ago I had the displeasure of having to do what normally would have taken 15 minutes stretched out to about 5 hours. It was -68c thats about -94F and there was no wind. Literally I was outside for 5 minutes and had to go back in the truck for half hour to "defrost!". You HAD to breath veryyy slowly and only in through your nose. If you took a breath through your mouth you would freeze burn your lungs.
Jules, that's incredible! It beats the lowest temperature ever recorded in Canada, which is -63c. Actually -68C is -90F, which is the lowest temperature ever recorded in Asia. The lowest temperature ever recorded on earth is −89.2 °C (−128.6 °F) at the Vostok Station, Antarctica.

I take it that you didn't expose any skin. How did you cover your face. When I was in -20F, I exposed only my eyes, but -90F is unimaginable! Btw, what were you doing in that weather?

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Monday, December 10, 2012 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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It was not officially recorded, it was literally in a small isolated area in the north west territories about a 5 hour drive down ice roads. We had to x-ray 3 welds for a section of pipe that had burst to avoid a huge clean up/ environmental hazard. The inspector for the job had a digital thermometer built into his truck so it may have had a variance of +- 10%. We used thinsulate full balaclavas. Literally outside 5 minutes and warm up half hour.

Post 18

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Kyle,
I'm still surprised (and incredulous) when people use the European model of "Left and Right" (Commies on the left, Nazis on the right), when they should be using the American model, when speaking of the U.S. political system.
That didn't come about accidentally. Socialists and Progressives that infest our universities like to act as if their positions are moderate while anyone to the right of them is a Nazi. It is just another example of ad hominem argument. For over 100 years they've been steadily moving the Overton Window to the left with lies and misdirection. Also, they don't recognize freedom - from their warped perspective Capitalism is economic oppression of the working man by the rich.

Jules, That is a frighteningly low temperature. In Laramie, Wyo., I bundled up and went out in 52 below (Fahrenheit) just to see what it was like. It felt like it was freezing my lungs even though I breathed in through a thick muffler. I turned around after just minutes and went back inside.

Post 19

Monday, December 10, 2012 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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I have never been in temperatures that cold but even in much milder winter nighttime desert temperatures, a strong wind cuts through clothes like they were not even there! Ouch! I appreciate Florida living by contrast.

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