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Post 100

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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The alternative to Deweyism is an intrinsicist? LOL - how droll...

LOLOLOLOLOL even......

(Edited by robert malcom on 10/04, 10:05am)


Post 101

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Not alternative Robert. Characterization. Of you.

Michael


Edit - I got to musing over the purpose of all those undefined Dewey snipes all of a sudden. They seem so pragmatic...

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 10/04, 10:30am)


Post 102

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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Well, dayam, I guess I'm the new Phil Coates here -- 'cause I'd moralize against the behavior currently presented (attacking the man before, or in lieu of, attacking his argument).

Michael, I disagree that there can be no "rights of one" (e.g. Robinson Crusoe Rights). Having the right to life -- by identity -- makes one feel appropriate to existence. Now, 'feeling' appropriate is not a good argument for something -- so this 'identity' thing (to which I, John, and Rand refer) begs to be fleshed out more. That'll take time and thought ...

Ed

Post 103

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Ergo the upcoming article...

The term "right" has had a horrible context-shifting mix of definitions in Objectivist literature.

Feeling appropriate to existence is not the same thing as having a right to life that cannot be infringed by another human being without punishment.

Michael


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Post 104

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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===========
Characterization. Of you.
===========

Musing now:
No offense to anyone is meant by this (I'm just reporting), but I just have to note the apparent extra power that these words appear to have -- when viewed next to Michael's subtitle!

Ed

Post 105

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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Dayaamm Ed!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...

Michael


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Post 106

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Michael K,

I think you are jumbling up a man's nature with his context in this discussion of rights.

By his nature as a rational being, a man has the right to life, liberty, and property without regard to the existence of any other human being.  For example, once Robinson Crusoe in his solitude builds himself a hut, that hut is his property.  It doesn't matter that there is no other human being to challenge him on the score.  His right of property in that hut exists.

Now let's change the context.  Friday shows up.  There are now two human beings in the same place.  However, Crusoe is metaphysically the same as before.  The hut is still Crusoe's property.  His right to property was not conjured up by Friday's presence.

As a practical matter, Crusoe and Friday may agree to a set of rules for their little society that acknowledges the existence of their rights.  But that acknowledgment is just that.  It is a recognition of what already exists and not a creation of what did not exist before the agreement.  This is what people mean when they acknowledge that a right of mine is God-given.  They mean it exists because I exist and cannot be alienated from me.

I can live with that, because that is not a whole different from the Objectivist description of rights.  What is dangerous is the idea that rights are a social construct that arise only in the context of government.

Andy


Post 107

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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Moreover - between Crusoe and Friday, there was no government... so government did not 'create' rights...

Post 108

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
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OK, Andy. I'll play. Please define what you mean by right.

And Robert, will you please read my posts before you try to sneak in your bullshit? I have stated absolutely the contrary to "government creates rights" since I can remember being conscious - and most certainly since starting to post on Solo.

Discussion is one thing. What you do is far too pragmatic...

Michael


Post 109

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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Oo, oo, oo ... I would like a couple shots at defining individual rights! My first attempt (adapted from James A. Donald's defense of Natural Law):

Individual Rights -- follow from an Evolutionary Stable Strategy (ESS) for the use of force: Conduct which violates Individual Rights is conduct such that, if a man were to use individual unorganized violence to prevent such conduct, or, in the absence of orderly society, use individual unorganized violence to punish such conduct, then such violence would not indicate that the person using such violence, (violence in accord with Individual Rights) is a danger to a reasonable man.

This definition is equivalent to the definition that comes from the game theory of iterated three or more player non zero sum games, applied to evolutionary theory.

The idea of Individual Rights, of actions being Rights-violating, has the emotional significance that it does have, because this ESS for the use of force is part of our nature.

To recap: It's a formerly-unwritten -- but altogether undeniable and unavoidable -- rule of life that life will do what it can to preserve itself. It's also a rule that life is what matters because values aren't intrinsic (all values are DERIVED from life -- instead of being primary things). Different creatures will be adapted differently for this all-encompassing life-sustainment axiom. Humans are so adapted as to encompass (ie. require) the principle of Individual Rights. It's what folks need to live. It's a Natural Need for creatures with human natures. This is true for everyone, always, and everywhere.

My first draft -- and it may have a couple kinks in it, but I'm counting on criticism (from SOLOists) to help me work these out! One example that comes to mind is the anchoring of the concept in the "use of force." Folks like Michael might then say: "See, rights REQUIRE society!" My first retort to this is that individuals -- e.g. Robinson Crusoe -- do use force (if only on their environment!).

Ed


Post 110

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You are starting to get there. You wrote:
My first retort to this is that individuals -- e.g. Robinson Crusoe -- do use force (if only on their environment!).
Now notice that in terms of environment only (no other people), the term "values" has great meaning but the term "rights" does not.

btw - Just to add a bit to gasoline to the fire, I also think that certain rights are "inalienable" (which means non-transferable) Guess who you would transfer them to if you could? Other people, of course!

I also define the word "absolute" for logical (volition-based) contexts, as the way people use it nowadays, it smacks of being a package concept.

Michael

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Post 111

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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The 'non-transferability' of rights is a consequentalness - rights are inalianable because they are inherant to the nature of the being, the human being, and thus are non-transferable...the concept 'inalienable' itself does not mean 'non-transferable'...

Post 112

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition:

"Inalienable - Not capable of being transferred to another."

I just Googled this and the same thing keeps popping up in too many places.

Rober Malcom's amazing statement,
...the concept 'inalienable' itself does not mean 'non-transferable'
is precisely the kind of intellectual fog in defining terms that I want to help dispel.

Also, I gotta help him with his crusade agains the children of Dewey...

Michael

Post 113

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Okay Michael, lemme' get this straight. Would you agree with the following?:


Life is an absolute value (by which all other values are relative, and not absolute).

Each man is, individually, inescapably inside a morality -- hopefully the right one (ie. he must act either for, or against, his life).

Men in solitude (Grizzly Adams, Robinson Crusue) will be guided solely by their morality (and they will either live or die, because of it).

Individual Rights are merely the social extension of the proper morality (as the proper morality ENTAILS Individual Rights whenever and wherever men live together).

Therefore, Individual Rights aren't floating abstract principles, but derive -- inevitably -- from the proper ethics (they are the social extension of the proper ethics).

Do you find this line of reasoning compelling, Michael? What about others (comments by others are welcomed)?

Ed

Post 114

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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I’m with Robert. Inalienable only implies non-transferable and only because inalienable means inseparable from the being, part of its nature.

Post 115

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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You certainly are getting there Ed.

Now look at your basic premise:
Life is an absolute value (by which all other values are relative, and not absolute).
Life is only an absolute value (whadda loaded term, too!) for those holding reason as their absolute manner of understanding reality. For those who believe in an afterlife, however, life is not an absolute value, merely a stage of development.

Both are premises. The word "philosophy" is used to characterize them both. However, there are good and bad (i.e. rational and irrational) philosophies.

The same thing applies to the word "rights." (Rational and irrational rights.) Where I strongly contest the Objectivist/Libertarian viewpoint is that they have tried to take exclusive possession of the word in order to alter the meaning to become the mystical one (being endowed thus by a Creator - or for atheists, being "created" that way).

If "absolute" is taken to mean metaphysical fact, then I disagree with the concept completely - it is a Platonic construct. If it is taken to mean based on reason (which is a metaphysical fact), always leading to the same conclusion about social rules, then I agree - even with the inalienable (non-transferrable) part. More coming later.

btw - In "delegated rights" (Ayn Rand's term), apparently some rights are alienable...

Michael

Post 116

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Sorry Jon - much as I  hate to say this, for once [it can happen, y'all know] MSK is correct in that specific quoted part of my statement, and I stand corrected... [even the gods can go slumming]...  the rest of the original statement, however, stands...

As for delegated rights, nothing there need imply alienating, merely a transferance of the applying - a legal terming if you will - whereby another can act as a rep to the one having the rights...

(Edited by robert malcom on 10/05, 10:57am)


Post 117

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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OK, Andy. I'll play. Please define what you mean by right.
Yes, Michael, I think that would be a good idea.  A right is what I own.  Because of its economic connotations, "own" isn't a precise word for the concept I want to explain.  But it is a down and dirty one that gets to the gist of this discussion.

I own my life.  I own the freedom to sustain, through my own efforts, my life.  I own the fruits of my labor.  I have my life, liberty, and property for no other reason than I exist.  They are mine because if they weren't I could not sustain my life as a human being.  This is true whether or not anyone else exists.

To say that I have right to my life, the freedom to sustain my life, and what I produce with that freedom is to say I own these things - without the economic connotation of that verb.  These rights belong to me simply because I exist.  They precede any society I may be a part of.  It is for that reason I dispute that a person's right to life, liberty, and property only exist in the context of two or more people.

Andy


Post 118

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

You definition of rights is a bit vague. By that definition, an animal like a lion can have rights - even the right to the deer he kills and eats, which he did by his own actions and ability. Of course, in that case, he violates the right to life of the deer, who simply loses all it owns with that particular meal.

More precision and elaboration is needed if rights is to be the basis of government and society.

Robert M - With that admission, it is starting. Once you start to see, the light comes flooding in.

Michael

Post 119

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
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By that definition, an animal like a lion can have rights - even the right to the deer he kills and eats, which he did by his own actions and ability.
Well, no, Michael, because whatever the lion does it can never live its life as a human being.  It lacks the rationality to do anything more than respond to its appetites.  It makes no genuine choices in its life, thus it has no freedom.  Unless freedom is possible for a being, such as a man, the concept of rights is meaningless.
More precision and elaboration is needed if rights is to be the basis of government and society.
I articulated how rights precede society.  I also clearly stated what these elemental rights of a man are:  Life, liberty, and property.  What further elaboration would clarify what I think are the necessary rights for government to acknowledge and safeguard?

Andy


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