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Post 120

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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"born again" lawyer. RD on steroids.

Post 121

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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The above is alot to swallow, Mr. Kelley, but it would appear you mean to say that Rand didn't mean to be taken so literally in phrase "Benevolent Universe"? It was just a artsy expression?

Fair enough. A possible good use of Occam's Razor. But it still doesn't explain the deeper issues involved, as to why such optimism is ultimately well-founded. Nor does it seem to fit Rand's reputation for expressing just the right words for just the right concepts.

Post 122

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Maurone, I'm here to resolve my questions about Objectivism, not hash out every byzantine ambiguity in Christian theology. One day I'll write a several-hundred page manifesto of what I believe and why I believe it. Just not tonight, and not on SOLO's bandwidth.

Post 123

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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Protaganist: "Mr. Maurone, I'm here to resolve my questions about Objectivism, not hash out every byzantine ambiguity in Christian theology. One day I'll write a several-hundred page manifesto of what I believe and why I believe it. Just not tonight, and not on SOLO's bandwidth."

Louis, friend or foe, you can call me Joe. :)

I'd like to believe you about being here to resolve questions. But as someone who came here originally with an oppositional attitude myself (I've since come back around to Objectivism), I have my doubts based on these words of yours:

"Sorry, I don't buy it."

" He believes that "rational faith" is not an oxymoron, but a necessary step in understanding existence and our conscience of it."

"Protagonist does not consider himself an "Objectivist" as strictly defined by Rand and her "intellectual heirs" due to the beliefs stated above."

"Protagonist is a born-again Christian, unapologetic over his apologetics, as it were."

"Rand's philosophy agreed with him; she had helped clear up and validate many of the philosophical/epistemological truths that he had held dear his whole life."

I can see the contradictions that would result in unresolved question, but your tone seems to be that of someone who wants to reconcile Objectivism with some kind of theism, and not someone who would choose one or the other. It can't be done, my friend! You're honest enough to admit that you're not an Objectivist as Rand defined it, but it seems you would redefine it...Rand herself said if you want to take parts of her philosophy and mix it with others, fine, but be honest and do not call yourself an Objectivist. No several hundred page manifesto needed.

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Post 124

Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Protagonist,

You just wrote:
But it still doesn't explain the deeper issues involved, as to why such optimism is ultimately well-founded. Nor does it seem to fit Rand's reputation for expressing just the right words for just the right concepts.
One error I see people do a lot is expect philosophy to explain the beginning of the universe. It does not do that. (That would be the realm of science.)

It's purpose is to be more like a technical instruction manual for living and using your mind. One of the BIG issues of philosophy is not the concept of God per se (although Objectivism is an atheistic philosophy). It is to define the proper use of the human mind for understanding and dealing with reality (or existence, or the universe, or nature, or whatever you want to call it). The Objectivist view defines the mental processes used in reason (all ultimately boiling down to input from the five senses - some say that there are even more senses for perceiving things like gravity, but that is a whole other can of worms, then going up in a hierarchical series of mental integrations).

There are other realms of philosophy, ethics (values), politics (men living in groups), and esthetics (objects made for contemplation on a sense of life level). However, I will limit this post to metaphysics (what exists) and epistemology (how we know it).

So here is the rub with the concept of God for Objectivists. You have to negate your reason - even negate the evidence of the five senses - to get there. This process is called faith. I don't know of a single Objectivist who would have a problem with believing in God if someday He presented Himself to our five senses and conceptual understanding. Or even if the human organism grew a new sense organ for perceiving such a being.

What cannot be tolerated as proper "technical instructions" is to use reason to understand and deal with reality, then negate it for further "understanding." You must build on reason, not negate it.

Getting back to the optimism. A philosophy like Objectivism does not say why the universe is knowable. It merely looks (hears, smells, tastes and feels) and perceives that it is and - in this specific case - identifies the axioms involved.

Why should it do that? In order to survive and grow towards "blooming" (according to man's nature), like all living organisms. One part of man's nature is his need for a proper emotional outlook in order to use his rational capacity. If he seeks pessimism, this will lead to suicide. Optimism (or benevolence, although they are a little bit different) will allow the rational faculty to function in a pro-life manner.

In short, the proper question for philosophy is not "How did I come into being?" That is for sciences like anthropology and history. The philosopher merely asks "What am I?" and "How do I know it?" (metaphysics and epistemology).

If you can find a concept of religion that does not contradict reason, then you can fit it into a view that does not contradict Objectivism. The problem is when a "fact" like the existence of God must be accepted without any sensory evidence whatsoever (faith) - and that does contradict reason.

I hope this helped.

About Rand using a phrase with an emotional "load," she did that frequently. That is one of the reasons for her popular appeal.

Michael



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Post 125

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
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Of course one can know why the universe is knowable - so one can survive in it...;-]

And since 'existence exists' means there can be no anticeedant, as something cannot come from nothing - yes, it can say something about the beginning of the universe - it doesn't have one...

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/12, 6:01am)


Post 126

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 6:03amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

"I thought Rand made it perfectly clear what she meant; she said that the universe was "benevolent" because if one followed the rules, one would gain the desired reaction.

You are explaining Rand.  She speaks clearly for herself.   The universe is benevolent independent of the action's of man.  If I and or a million others behave irrationally does that change the nature of Rand's benevolent universe?

As to proofs of God.  She was smart enough not to bother.  These proofs have been hashed and rehashed for centuries.  They go no where and are just a waste of time.  Rand did not waste a lot of time.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 11/12, 6:17am)


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Post 127

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
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Robert M,

You sidestep the issue on why the universe is knowable, but no matter. (Need is not a cause.)

If you reread my post, you will see that I did not say that the why is not knowable. I said that it was not in the province of philosophy, but of science instead.

The presumption that the universe has no beginning also is nothing more than that - a presumption. Not provable, but there are scientists working on it. Once again, proving that is not the business of philosophy.

Michael


Post 128

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

I do have an article about mysticism, but I was working with someone else and it ended up be placed elsewhere. I decided I had other topics more suited for SOLO. However, if you'd like to read it, send me an email and I'll make it available to you.

rde
rdengle@msn.com


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Post 129

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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Rich --

That isn't good enough.  You take constant jabs at Objectivists (including just yesterday)  here on SOLO over the issue of mysticism.  Isn't it reasonable for us to demand an explanation of our supposed errors?  You are welcome to have a personal opinion in opposition to the general ideology of SOLO.  This is after all a public forum for the discussion of ideas.   But by taking pot shots at us in public and then refusing to provide any valid reason for taking them is a violation of the spirit of this community.  You either need to provide reasons for your assertions here on SOLO or else you should keep your vague, unformed opinions to yourself. 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 11/12, 8:22am)


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Post 130

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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Need is a causal consequence - it is not the same as wishfulness - it is a necessity, this need to know,  especially in regards to being human [else we would not be human, and be as other living organisms, blissfully unaware of knowings]... so, as said, the universe is knowable because as humans we could not survive otherwise...
 
As far as 'presumption' is concerned - no, is not a presumption, as that is a claiming of something as true essentially on faith [as in many presuming the existence of God, or presuming you are blond because you are German, or a redhead because you are Irish, or an Objectivist because you like Rand, etc...]...  the non-beginning of the universe is an inference, based on empirical observations, the recognition of the primary axioms, and the use of logic [it being non-contradictory identification]... and, just as and in the same manner as George Smith proved the non-existence of God in his Atheism book, so likewise can thus prove this to be true as a consequence of adhering to the integrated non-contradictory view of existence, that is - reality...

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/12, 9:16am)


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Post 131

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Sorry Robert M,

We disagree about the function of philosophy. I personally go along with Ayn Rand on this. Here is an entry from her Journals dated June 19, 1958 (with comment in brackets by Peikoff). I fully agree with this approach.
"Cosmology" has to be thrown out of philosophy. When this is done, the conflict between "rationalism" and "empiricism" will be wiped out—or, rather, the error that permitted the nonsense of such a conflict will be wiped out.

What, apparently, has never been challenged and what I took as a self-evident challenge (which it isn't) is Thales' approach to philosophy, namely: the idea that philosophy has to discover the nature of the universe in cosmological terms. If Thales thought that everything is water, and the other pre-Socratics fought over whether it's water and earth and fire, etc., then the empiricists were right in declaring that they would go by the evidence of observation, not by "rational" deduction—only then, of course, the whole issue and all its terms are [thoroughly confused]. The crux of the error here is in the word "nature." I took Thales' attempt to mean only the first attempt at, or groping toward, a unified view of knowledge and reality, i.e., an epistemological, not a metaphysical, attempt to establish the fact that things have natures.

Now I think that he meant, and all subsequent philosophers took it to mean, a metaphysical attempt to establish the literal nature of reality and to prove by philosophical means that everything is literally and physically made of water or that water is a kind of universal "stuff." If so, then philosophy is worse than a useless science, because it usurps the domain of physics and proposes to solve the problems of physics by some nonscientific, and therefore mystical, means. On this kind of view of philosophy, it is logical that philosophy has dangled on the strings of physics ever since the Renaissance and that every new discovery of physics has blasted philosophy sky-high, such as, for instance, the discovery of the nature of color giving a traumatic shock to philosophers, from which they have not yet recovered. [AR is referring to the discovery that our perception of color depends on the nature of the light and the human visual system as well as on nature of the object, which led many philosophers to conclude that perception is subjective. ]

In fact, this kind of view merely means: rationalizing from an arrested state of knowledge. Thus, if in Thales' time the whole extent of physical knowledge consisted of distinguishing water from air and fire, he took this knowledge to be a final omniscience and decided on its basis that water was the primary metaphysical element. On this premise, every new step in physics has to mean a new metaphysics. The subsequent nonsense was not that empiricists rejected Thales' approach, but that they took him (and Plato) to be "rationalists," i.e., men who derived knowledge by deduction from some sort of "innate ideas," and therefore the empiricists declared themselves to be anti-rationalists. They did not realize that the Thales-Plato school was merely a case of "arrested empiricists," that is, men who "rationalized" on the ground of taking partial knowledge as omniscience.

Aristotle established the right metaphysics by establishing the law of identity—which was all that was necessary (plus the identification of the fact that only concretes exist). But he destroyed his metaphysics by his cosmology—by the whole nonsense of the "moving spheres," "the immovable mover," teleology, etc.

The real crux of this issue is that philosophy is primarily epistemology—the science of the means, the rules, and the methods of human knowledge. Epistemology is the base of all other sciences and one necessary for man because man is a being of volitional consciousness—a being who has to discover, not only the content of his knowledge, but also the means by which he is to acquire knowledge. Observe that all philosophers (except Aristotle) have been projecting their epistemologies into their metaphysics (or that their metaphysics were merely epistemological and psychological confessions). All the fantastic irrationalities of philosophical metaphysics have been the result of epistemological errors, fallacies or corruptions. "Existence exists" (or identity plus causality) is all there is to metaphysics. All the rest is epistemology.

Paraphrasing myself: Philosophy tell
s us only that things have natures, but what these natures are is the job of specific sciences. The rest of philosophy's task is to tell us the rules by which to discover the specific natures.

Thus cosmology (the beginning or not of the universe) is not "proven" by philosophy.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/12, 10:06am)


Post 132

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I don't see what my "tone" or my motives have anything to do with the question at hand. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by identifying me as a Christian. My personal ideology doesn't make the universe any more or less benevolent.

Also, sorry if I'm misusing the ObjectivistTM moniker incorrectly. I'll be sure to mail $.05 to the ARI for every time I typed it.



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Post 133

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Louis, I think you do know. But if you can't, I'm not going to bend my head into a pretzel trying to explain it to you. You can't mix oil and water, and you can't mix Christianity and Objectivism.

Post 134

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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MSK: If you can find a concept of religion that does not contradict reason, then you can fit it into a view that does not contradict Objectivism. The problem is when a "fact" like the existence of God must be accepted without any sensory evidence whatsoever (faith) - and that does contradict reason.
 
Exactly so. The thing is what someone means when they say "God". It is often not used in a deistic sense, it could be interchangeable for "extistence", "the universe," "all that is," or even "The Divine," "The Sacred," depending on who you are talking to.
 
And, again, the conversation has to be able to separate between ecclesiastical and individual religious experience.

And, to be mindful of the fact that some people choose to reinterpret existing religious materials (objects, scriptures, art, what have you) in a symbolic way, not a literal one- to look at the various aesthetics and symbols involved.

To separate liberal religious thought from fundamentalist religious thought.




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Post 135

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Using philosophy to say whether the universe has a beginning or not is not explaining the nature of the universe, only the nature of existing, so it is not dealing with cosmology but metaphysics...

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Post 136

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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Gee guys, from now on we have to be careful about the words we use on SOLO, because our words, even though they are used in a certain context might offend some people who use that word in other ways.  In fact we should reconsider even using words like toaster in the fashion that we normally use them.  From what I understand the Relativistic Humanitarian Church uses this word instead in the place of microwave and even though SOLO is an Objectivist website we have to (somehow) be able to encompass into our definitions their meaning of these words too.

The literal, contextual use of words is offensive and simple minded and should be avoided.  Instead our posts should contain irrelivant, superflous, trivial thoughts intermixed with petty pot shots against those who take rational discussion and the clear, contextual use of words seriously.  

 - Jason


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Post 137

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...

I don't know who you were addressing, but that was funny as all get out.

//;-)

Michael


Post 138

Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 5:32pmSanction this postReply
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Stuff it, Jason - nuke it and burn it...;-)

Post 139

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
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If you toss cosmology out of philosophy, you would'nt have to deal with questions of God at all.  Atheism would be irrelevant in such a system.

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