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Post 20

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I understand that you were/are concerned with the definition of man, not individual rights. And I'm not trying to make it seem like you advocate brain-body transplantation, either. My beef with you is roughly the same as it is with Ted -- that the definitions of man and of individual rights are necessarily interdependent. I'll explain myself.

If man didn't exist, then rights wouldn't either. If man's nature were different, then rights would be different. The definition of man has to be about what's essential to man against everything else currently known to exist. If the definition of man failed to be about what's essential (compared to other kinds of things), then problems would arise as to the evaluation of the rights of man.

It's okay to leave out limbs when defining man, because limbs aren't essential (and rights wouldn't be affected). However, if you leave out brains when defining man, and -- due to biology -- brains happen to be essential to human nature as it is defined or condensed into the capacity for rationality, then you end up caught arguing for the rights of things that don't even have the capacity to express human nature.

An unborn genome comes to mind as a pennultimate result of granting rights to things that don't have the capacity to individually express human nature on their own.

I'm looking at it with such a wide and integrating lense -- where definitions of man, human nature, and rights interrelate -- in order to capture what it is that Doug is asking about.

Ed


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 21

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,
is there a way to deny your sanction? I'd rather my sanctions be a reflection of my ideas, not my reading material.


A few of you misunderstood my post, saying either:

1) that I expected Rand to have thought of every possible counterargument with every possible subtlety, or 2) that the alternative to to my ideas are that every person has to be assessed individually in order to be adopted the group that has rights.

I do not expect omniscience of Rand (or people). I did expect of Rand a solid case. Also, I understand that "rational" in the definition of man refers to capacity, not to whether an individual happens to act rationally.

In this context, there are only a few combinations of "borderline cases" which Rand would have to think of to complete the thought. A simple line of questions could find every possible essential "conundrum" to be had. Because she did not do this, but chose easy or innocent examples, I thought it lacking in important measures.

Certain humans are substantially different enough to create subclasses. It interests me that some of those subclasses are allowed to defy the differentia, yet be considered both human and, one step further, are entitled with rights (given their differentia?). Ed and Ted are touching on this biological vs philosophical definition I expected.


Ed,
You argued that the principle "measurements are removed from concepts, but it is assumed that they exist in some degree" takes the borderline-ness from my case. I was under the impression that, according to the theory, (pre-speaking) children and mentally challenged were on the cognitive level of non-rational animals. Children may grow out of this pre-conceptual stage. but mentally handicapped may never get past it.

So then to be consistent, it seems octopus and some mammals are subsumed under the rational animal tag, and our differentia becomes walking upright.

btw octopus are fascinating individualistic puzzle-solvers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Intelligence

Post 22

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I don't disagree.

I don't think there is an argument with Ted, because his definition of Homo Sapiens is for a species which is in the context of biology. You are talking about the context of philosophy.

I don't disagree with you on the fact that human nature and rights are inter-related. I agree that the definition of man must be done in terms of essentials and I agree with the capacity for rationality as that essential.

I haven't left the capacity for rationality (or brains) out of the definition. Mother nature might leave a brain, hence the capacity for rationality out of a particular person, but that isn't the same as leaving it out of the definition.

I'm not arguing for rights for anything but humans, nor do I see that I've implied or opened the door to anything contrary to that position. The connections between rationality/choice/rights/man are still there in all that I've said.

Take a look at my answer to Doug that I made in post #1.
-----------

Ted said the same thing in his reply (post 11) to Doug:
Doug said, "To be epistemologically consistent you cannot say that man has rights because he is volitional and rational creature, then argue that certain humans without such a capacity have them too. You must resort to a definition by non-essentials to make sense of her statement."

Ted replies, "But your statement is simply ambiguous. The term man is equivocal (susceptible of many meanings) and has to be carfully qualified. Had you said "each individual [hu]man has potential rights because he is an individual of a [group] with a volitionally rational nature" then the problems are nearly eliminated. There is no question then of definition by non-essentials. Just a question of how best in a political system to treat humans who may not be able to act as persons." [I edited out 'species' replacing it with 'group' just to avoid setting off any definition wars.]

Post 23

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Such modesty deserves a sanction, Doug.

Post 24

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Doug,

I was under the impression that, according to the theory, (pre-speaking) children and mentally challenged were on the cognitive level of non-rational animals. Children may grow out of this pre-conceptual stage. but mentally handicapped may never get past it.

So then to be consistent, it seems octopus and some mammals are subsumed under the rational animal tag, and our differentia becomes walking upright.
But you missed the point which I repeated stated, that:

1) it's not about actualized rationality, but a natural capacity for rationality
2) that there isn't a group of humans anywhere not possessing that capacity (even if not actualized in any significant degree)

Examples like kids, and mentally-challenged folks (or octopi) don't make your case against Rand. In the case of kids and mentally-challenged folks -- the burden is on you to show that they lack any and all capacity for rationality. In the case of the octopus -- here again, the burden is on you to show them being rational (in a human-like sense of that term).

I know it sounds like I'm being so blunt as to be offensive, but until you discharge these obligations which I've shown you to have, you don't have a case against Rand.

Ed


Post 25

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Ted, There was more to your post than I read into first. I will address it more specifically.

It had occurred to me to be far more precise with words like man, human, etc. So for now, Homo Sapien: refers to ANY entity that is born from the lineage of the same name (pending new specieshood). Rational Animal will refer to all entities which have the capacity for rationality. And Man will refer to Rational Animals who are Homo Sapiens.

My case revised:
To be epistemologically consistent you cannot say that Man has rights because he is has a rational capacity, then argue that certain Homo Sapiens, who are unfortunate enough not to have this capacity, have rights as well. Rand seemed to make this leap haphazardly by resorting to a very biological standard. If rational capacity is the differentia of Man, you must resort to a definition by non-essentials to maintain that all Homo Sapiens have rights.

You replied earlier that "[the only questions that remain are]of how best in a political system to treat humans who may not be able to act as persons"

This is my point. Your point is that it is rare, so it isn't worth making a fuss. But you just illustrated our context. There is a substantial demand for differentiation in the political realm. It seems you wouldn't treat them as if they had rights.

You may align yourself with Ed, who wants evidence. This will be my next post.

Post 26

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,
There are a few parts where Rand gets into the differences between rational animals and animals. And more specifically, the facts of reality that give rise to this distinction. These will serve as a nice basis for us. I'm not sure I'll remember them all. I'll list some and maybe you can complete the list. (There is a section in "Reason and Analysis" by Blanshard pp. 50-? that has to do with this very subject. I'll reread it.)

1) self-awareness- Rand goes as far as saying that "the whole difference between a human type of consciousness and an animal is exactly... the ability to be self-conscious and to identify the fact of one's own consciousness, one's 'I'." I think at some other point she says that the whole of cognition rests on this ability (can you find this?).

2) a tremendous variation in action (personality, skills, knowledge, ability)

3) advanced language (for cognitive and communicative benefit)

4) the ability to think in terms of units (ie beyond the level of percepts)

I have no more time tonight. But I'll be chewing on this thought. This was one of my later questions anyway.

Pleasure chatting with the RoR folks again.



Post 27

Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:44pmSanction this postReply
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Doug,

There are a few parts where Rand gets into the differences between rational animals and animals. ... I'll list some and maybe you can complete the list.
Here are a few parts where Rand gets into such "differences":

"The attribute of volition does not contradict the fact of identity, just as the existence of living organisms does not contradict the existence of inanimate matter. Living organisms possess the power of self-initiated motion, which inanimate matter does not possess; man’s consciousness possesses the power of self-initiated motion in the realm of cognition (thinking), which the consciousnesses of other living species do not possess."--Philosophy: Who Needs It, p 26
Recap:
A rational faculty is something volitional or self-initiated. Man possesses a natural ability to initiate, sustain or suspend thought -- animals don't.

Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification."--Philosophy: Who Needs It, p 62
Recap:
A rational faculty is something that forms abstractions or conceptions by the method of logic (non-contradictory identification). Man possesses a natural ability to form concepts via logic -- animals don't.

Bottom Line:
A rational faculty is expressed via a volitional and logical formation of concepts.

There are three unique ingredients to rationality (volitional, logical, concept-forming) and a fourth ingredient -- i.e., perception -- which serves as the background on which rationality has to do its work. As to whether any animals whatsoever possess a rational faculty, I refer you to recent investigation which casts doubt that Great Apes -- the animals genetically closest to man -- form concepts at all, let alone in a logical manner. Until and unless you can provide counter-evidence on animal rationality, I will consider that part of this discussion over.

As to whether or not there are any folks who don't possess any capacity for rationality -- either through having no volition, no logic, or no concepts -- I will await your evidence on that matter. Until and unless you can provide evidence that such folks exist, I will consider that part of this discussion rendered moot via the mere appeal to the arbitrary (as merely bald and bold conjecture -- without any supporting evidence).

Ed

Post 28

Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Doug,

Under Objectivism, a concept needs to include all its intended members and exclude all else. The key word here is intended. If you intend to include mentally retarded individuals under the concept HUMANS, then you have to find the definition that subsumes each and all of them. If you don't so intend, then you can pop out a new concept just for them. When presented with a questionable case such as this, you always have the same options: grow your concept to include the new member, shrink it if a member accidentally snuck in, and/or or pop out a new concept for the member that otherwise doesn't fit.

Most of this thread is fairly beside the point. People are just hashing out how they would resolve the classification of mentally retarded individuals. It's really a matter of intent, or "context," if you prefer. If we intend HUMAN to be limited to rational animals (whatever that means), and if mentally retarded children are found to be rational animals, then they are included in HUMAN. If they are not found to be rational animals, then they are excluded from HUMAN. It all depends what we intend our classifications to be. We can argue which of our intents are more reasonable/useful/credible/etc -- as is happening on this thread -- but that doesn't change the rules of concept-formation. 

One other thing -- our definitions need address only actual classification problems, so we don't really need to worry about rational martian spiders. Buf if they should actually come round (and not eat us), then we can turn to our options of growing the concept at issue, shrinking it, or popping out a new one altogether.
  
Jordan


Post 29

Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 4:06amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

In the specific case of Dude #3, I partially agree with Steve - if he reasons and has choice (and is mortal) - he is entitled to the same rights as man. Otherwise, though I would only characterize him as being a sentient reproduction. Sentience and mortality, I think, are the key considerations in determining "human"rights. These are what determine our values.

jt

Post 30

Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 4:07amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I'd say "cool" and probably focus most of my attention to Dude #3.

jt

Post 31

Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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JT,

In the specific case of Dude #3, I partially agree with Steve - if he reasons and has choice (and is mortal) - he is entitled to the same rights as man.
But -- according to my analogy as I laid it out -- he doesn't "reason" or have "choice" in the human sense of those terms. He's merely programmed to register what causes joy for humans with a wide smile, and to register what causes sorrow for humans with fake tears and wailing and rolling around on the ground asking "Why me? Why me?!".

He acts in a human manner but he does so for different-than-human reasons. Somebody programmed him to have those reactions.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/01, 1:52pm)


Post 32

Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

But... can you say precisely how we (humans) are programmed? On the basis of the three dudes all actively participating in that conversation, and Dude #3's specific behavior - which suggest the ability of analysis and choice of response in Dude #3 - my distinct impression is that he is, even if counterfeit, quite likely worth being accorded the same rights as a human.

That a human might have been responsible for his particular 'wiring' or programming, or even that he might not have a perfectly replicated mental facility, does not exclude the possibility that he would fulfill the requirements (reasoning, choice, mortality), in essence, share human values and qualities. Let me re-phrase that - "sentient values and qualities". The question is exactly how well was he programmed to evaluate and make his own choices.

jt

Post 33

Thursday, October 2, 2008 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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JT,

I still disagree but need time to be able to say exactly why ...

Ed


Post 34

Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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JT,

But... can you say precisely how we (humans) are programmed?
But that's the crux of the issue, we're not "programmed." If we were programmed -- i.e., if "hard-determinism" were true (and maybe even "soft-determinism"?) -- then individual rights would be a non-starter. The reason we need rights is because we need to choose. We're not born with an Owner's Manual or a User's Manual. We figure out what's good for us on the fly. Because of that part of our nature, if we didn't have rights, we'd perish. Rights are requirements for man's life (as man) on Earth.

That a human might have been responsible for his particular 'wiring' or programming, or even that he might not have a perfectly replicated mental facility, does not exclude the possibility that he would fulfill the requirements (reasoning, choice, mortality), in essence, share human values and qualities. Let me re-phrase that - "sentient values and qualities".
But it's not sentience (the ability to crudely value, or to feel) from which rights objectively derive, it's sapience (the ability to think, evaluate, and choose). 

Ed


Post 35

Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Double-checked my Oxford English dictionary to see if I was using the word wrong. It didn't accord either word a definition that fit what we may both be trying to say. I need to find a better dictionary.

My point is simply that if Dude #3 is capable of perceiving and integrating facts into concepts, then evaluating the validity or personal value of those concepts (only living things can conceive values), then he does have rights which should be recognized.

jt

Post 36

Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
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JT,

The second entry for sentience at merriam-webster.com suits me fine:

2 : feeling or sensation as distinguished from perception and thought
 
... but I needed to click the "thesaurus" option there in order to be satisfied with sapience:
 
the ability to understand inner qualities or relationships
 
Would you agree on those definitions?
 
Ed
 
 


Post 37

Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I try not to disagree with dictionaries. It is self defeating. I have, however, been incorrectly equating sentience with sapience. mea culpa. Usually, when I'm not sure of my usage of a word, I turn to my wife - who is a walking dictionary & thesaurus, and yet still fun.

My corrected point then is that Dude #3 exhibits signs of being sapient.

jt

Post 38

Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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 I have, however, been incorrectly equating sentience with sapience.
most people do - and it breeds a false viewing of the nature of rights...


Post 39

Sunday, October 5, 2008 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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JT,

But the analogy -- as I have laid it out -- is that Dude #3 is just an elaborate Turing machine, not more than that.

He's not a man, he's a machine.

If you gave me just 72 hours with a Turing machine -- I could figure out that it wasn't human.

There'd be something in conversation -- especially with my whacky-zany self -- that would tip me off. Some unjustified response ... some "weird" moment where there was supposed to be a chuckle on the other end of the line -- but instead, the response was something like: "Oh. That's really too bad, you know. By the way, did you know that something like that happened to me just recently?"

I would be able to hear the machine's inhumanity.

Ed
[I'm good ... really good, at detecting inhumanity]


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