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Post 40

Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Who knows where the Devil lurks -[because the devil is in the details] ;-)

Post 41

Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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Actually, Bill, I did. In Post #126 of the "Evaluating initiation of force in emergency situations" thread I wrote:

"A quick disclaimer: This is a theory of natural/moral rights. I've gravitated away from this theory, but nonetheless, I find it the most tenable under Objectivism."

Jordan



Post 42

Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan:

John,

"Yet the definition you provide is one where it can only make sense if we were talking about a social context."

Not so. The definition I'm defending can be applied within a social context, but it doesn't have to be. A condition of existence required by my nature for my proper survival doesn't always have to entail some relationship with others.


Yes it does, since you differentiate between two types of survival, one where you don't rule out stealing from someone else or otherwise interfering with the actions of others to ensure your survival in spite of theirs, and the other kind of survival concerned with taking actions to survive but that must entail not interfering with the actions of others before calling this "proper" survival, which is the definition of rights you give. Therefore it must entail a relationship with others since the term "proper" you use in "proper survival" requires the acknowledgment of such a social context. If it didn't require it, I could just as easily say your interpretation of "proper survival" does not require I actually stop from interfering in the actions of others.

Keep trying Jordan. It's your definition of proper survival, do you want to continue to stand by it or revise your definition to reconcile your contradictions?


the only way to know the concept of nourishment is by understanding what happens if you don't get it.

This reformulation changes nothing, and it's still a useless point. Now you're just saying the only way to know the concept of "rights" is by understanding what happens if you don't get them. Who care if one doesn't understand the concept? That doesn't make the units of that concept any less real. My rights exist (and have definition) regardless of whether someone manages to form a concept for them.


I didn't say that! Re-read what I said:

"Of course what you're saying is true, but it's also not at all what I said now is it? You've twisted my words from "you can only understand what it means to be nourished if it was possible you could starve" to "nourishment exists regardless of whether people understand it". Now how did you come to that interpretation? You've shifted the meaning of the sentence from how one can come to an understanding of a concept to the concept exists whether one is ignorant of it or not. Two completely different ideas. Ignorance isn't what I'm talking about, the only way to know the concept of nourishment is by understanding what happens if you don't get it. If you're ignorant of that, of course it doesn't change the fact you would starve if you didn't get nourishment. But it also doesn't mean if you have no knowledge of the concept of "nourishment" that you could possibly attain such knowledge if it weren't possible you could starve."

Now where in that paragraph did I say "That doesn't make the units of that concept any less real. My rights exist (and have definition) regardless of whether someone manages to form a concept for them."

That's right, no where did I say that!

You would not understand what rights were if others did not have the ability to coerce you, but since no such lack of this ability actually exists, we can come to an understanding of what rights mean. Similarly if humans did not require nourishment to stave off starvation, they would never have come up with the concept of "nourishment" or "starvation", but since this isn't the case, we do starve if we don't get nourishment, we can understand these concepts because they are rooted in reality. All I'm saying is "what if" some part of reality was different, then that means the words we normally use to correspond to what we understand reality to be would no longer carry the same meaning in our altered reality in this thought experiment.

Rand had a similar example of an "indestructible robot"

“Try to imagine an immortal, indestructible robot, an entity which moves and acts, but which cannot be affected by anything, which cannot be changed in any respect, which cannot be damaged, injured or destroyed. Such an entity would not be able to have any values; it would have nothing to gain or to lose.”

Often times philosophers come up with thought experiments like this. But the key here is that it is a thought experiment, we don't actually know of any "immortal, indestructible robots" but we do understand each of those words, and we can formulate a concept of such an entity without having any empirical knowledge of it. But it doesn't mean this entity actually exists. So my point in originally coming up with a "man deserted on an island" example was like a thought experiment, man's essential nature doesn't actually entail existing in a vacuum, devoid of any social interactions.

This has nothing to do with whether someone has discovered a concept yet before saying it actually exists, or is valid, that's not what I'm saying since you keep bring the thought experiment out it's "what if" altered reality into our understanding of reality. But it appears that's how you keep interpreting my arguments. I can't understand why, I think I'm being pretty straight-forward in my posts.

Post 43

Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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John,

This has nothing to do with whether someone has discovered a concept yet before saying it actually exists, or is valid, that's not what I'm saying since you keep bring the thought experiment out it's "what if" altered reality into our understanding of reality. But it appears that's how you keep interpreting my arguments. I can't understand why, I think I'm being pretty straight-forward in my posts.
I think Jordan is responding to you -- and Jordan can claim or deny this! -- as if you are arguing from a position where rights are purely-conceptual or cognitive things (advanced cognitive schematisms); things narrowly applied not just to social conditions, but to specific (rather than to all) social conditions.

On this view, rights don't really exist in the metaphysical sense. Instead of being metaphysical, they are man-made. This view has been defended here before (by Bidinotto), and I think that Jordan has assumed that you are arguing from that position.

Ed


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Post 44

Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Yes Ed that is my position. Sorry if I was confusing anyone but I don't agree with you that Jordan was accurately portraying my argument. Maybe I haven't been articulating myself clearly or accurately enough, in which case I apologize.

I was only trying to say that while someone may be ignorant of a concept, it doesn't at all mean it is an invalid one. So long as certain facts of reality are what they are, a concept that corresponds to those facts is a valid one, and it doesn't go away because someone may be ignorant of such a concept, or wish it away. But rights do not exist in the fabric of space/time, they only exist insofar as man if he is to live and flourish (not just any kind of living, an Aristotelian eudaimonic kind of living), a recognition of rights are the only means he has to attain such an optimal life. I think it's important to note what the purpose of rights are, they are a concept created to attain a certain value-determined goal, and only insofar as that is the goal, rights exist as a meaningful concept. But the universe has no opinion on the matter, it doesn't give a crap what happens to man, it has no values so there are no universal constants that give rise to a concept of "rights", so I think it's a misnomer to call them "natural rights". For hundreds of thousands of years man lived without any recognition of rights, yet from an evolutionary biological perspective, he has survived, and it was a 100% natural process, no recognition of rights were needed for this kind of survival, but it wasn't survival in any kind of flourishing way during the majority of this time. Man's life in the absence of any recognition of rights was a brutal, harsh and brief existence marked by constant violence. So who is to say rights are "natural"? It makes no sense, man existed in nature without respecting anyone's rights for hundreds of millennia. So for rights to have any kind of meaning, they must pertain to some goal, a specific kind of life that makes living worthwhile.

So yes rights do exist, but only as a means to a specific value determined end. So going back to what you said about my position, that doesn't mean under a dictatorship you "lose your rights", because the facts of reality that require man to live optimally haven't changed, only that a dictator refuses to morally sanction such a eudaimonic existence.

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Post 45

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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John,

But rights do not exist in the fabric of space/time, they only exist insofar as man if he is to live and flourish (not just any kind of living, an Aristotelian eudaimonic kind of living), a recognition of rights are the only means he has to attain such an optimal life.
I agree with that -- that rights aren't knowable without conceptual awareness -- but I'm still a natural rights guy.

I think it's important to note what the purpose of rights are, they are a concept created to attain a certain value-determined goal, and only insofar as that is the goal, rights exist as a meaningful concept. But the universe has no opinion on the matter, it doesn't give a crap what happens to man, it has no values so there are no universal constants that give rise to a concept of "rights", so I think it's a misnomer to call them "natural rights".
I agree that the universe doesn't have opinions, but I think that you are looking at the matter as if it were a matter of opinion rather than a matter of fact. Let me explain. If rights were a matter of opinion, it might matter what the universe "thinks" (I'm speaking metaphorically, just like you did). If rights were a matter of opinion, it might matter that they might only be instrumental values toward a chosen goal (of some men, somewhere).

When you say rights were (a concept) created in order to attain a goal, it's instrumental -- like when a carpenter creates a hammer in order to deal well with nails. On that view, rights got created by some high-minded men who wanted to live well. It's existential. Existentialists don't look at the nature of man to get answers on how to live, they create their own answers. It's part of their self-expression to do that. Any other way to live would seem like a prison -- or like insanity -- to them. They have got to come up with -- to personally come up with -- their own answers to things.

An alternate view is to discover the right answers to things (by looking at nature). On this alternate view, there was always that one right way to be, or that one right way to do things -- it's just that humans were having trouble saying just what it is. On this alternate view, rights aren't (a concept) created in order to attain a goal, they're discovered (by looking at nature) to be the facts of the matter.

An analogy might be a bunch of folks thinking and living as if the world were flat, until this wrong thought didn't help them anymore (think of Columbus sailing across the ocean). At that point, what's needed is for them to discover the facts of the matter -- rather than to merely create a concept that the world is round (in order to accomplish the goal of sailing across the ocean without falling off). We wouldn't say they created the round-world concept in order to attain the goal of sailing around the world -- we'd say they discovered the facts of the matter and then proceeded to go from there.

For hundreds of thousands of years man lived without any recognition of rights, yet from an evolutionary biological perspective, he has survived, and it was a 100% natural process, no recognition of rights were needed for this kind of survival, but it wasn't survival in any kind of flourishing way during the majority of this time. Man's life in the absence of any recognition of rights was a brutal, harsh and brief existence marked by constant violence. So who is to say rights are "natural"? It makes no sense, man existed in nature without respecting anyone's rights for hundreds of millennia.
I disagree with this. We've always had rights. Try taking candy from a baby. Ever see a toddler who just had his toy taken away? I saw one toddler pull another toddler off of a chair -- face-plant! -- pulling back his own toy. Kids less than age 5 understand rights (to some degree). Even ancient barbarians understood rights (to some degree). Here's more on that.

*********************
In this paper I have used several different definitions of natural law, often without indicating which definition I was using, often without knowing or caring which definition I was using. Among the definitions that I use are:
  • The medieval/legal definition: Natural law cannot be defined in the way that positive law is defined, and to attempt to do so plays into the hands of the enemies of freedom. Natural law is best defined by pointing at particular examples, as a biologist defines a species by pointing at a particular animal, a type specimen preserved in formalin. (This definition is the most widely used, and is probably the most useful definition for lawyers)
  • The historical state of nature definition: Natural law is that law which corresponds to a spontaneous order in the absence of a state and which is enforced, (in the absence of better methods), by individual unorganized violence, in particular the law that historically existed (in so far as any law existed) during the dark ages among the mingled barbarians that overran the Roman Empire.
  • The medieval / philosophical definition: Natural law is that law, which it is proper to uphold by unorganized individual violence, whether a state is present or absent, and for which, in the absence of orderly society, it is proper to punish violators by unorganized individual violence. Locke gives the example of Cain, in the absence of orderly society, and the example of a mugger, where the state exists, but is not present at the crime. Note Locke's important distinction between the state and society. For example trial by jury originated in places and times where there was no state power, or where the state was violently hostile to due process and the rule of law but was too weak and distant to entirely suppress it.
  • The scientific/ sociobiological/ game theoretic/ evolutionary definition: Natural law is, or follows from, an ESS for the use of force: Conduct which violates natural law is conduct such that, if a man were to use individual unorganized violence to prevent such conduct, or, in the absence of orderly society, use individual unorganized violence to punish such conduct, then such violence would not indicate that the person using such violence, (violence in accord with natural law) is a danger to a reasonable man. This definition is equivalent to the definition that comes from the game theory of iterated three or more player non zero sum games, applied to evolutionary theory. The idea of law, of actions being lawful or unlawful, has the emotional significance that it does have, because this ESS for the use of force is part of our nature.
Utilitarian and relativist philosophers demand that advocates of natural law produce a definition of natural law that is independent of the nature of man and the nature of the world. Since it is the very essence of natural law to reason from the nature of man and the nature of the world, to deduce “should” from “is”, we unsurprisingly fail to meet this standard.
--http://jim.com/rights.html
*********************

Ed


Post 46

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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that rights aren't knowable without conceptual awareness
..............

No - there are no rights at the waterhole - rights came into existence when conceptual consciousness evolved, as a necessary condition for human survival, as animals survive [as animals] without rights...

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Post 47

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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It might help to define our terms in order to avoid arguing at cross purposes:

"Natural Rights" -- From Wikipedia:

"Some philosophers and political scientists make a distinction between natural and legal rights.

"Natural rights (also called moral rights or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity. In contrast, legal rights (sometimes also called civil rights or statutory rights) are rights conveyed by a particular polity, codified into legal statutes by some form of legislature, and as such are contingent upon local laws, customs, or beliefs. Natural rights are thus necessarily universal, whereas legal rights are culturally and politically relative.

"Blurring the lines between natural and legal rights, U.S. statesman James Madison believed that some rights, such as trial by jury, are social rights, arising neither from natural law nor from positive law but from the social contract from which a government derives its authority."

- Bill

Post 48

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed, I fear you have taken some of my language way to literally and in one instance you didn't interpret my words correctly at all and dropped some important language I provided. I'll attempt to clarify:

I agree that the universe doesn't have opinions, but I think that you are looking at the matter as if it were a matter of opinion rather than a matter of fact. Let me explain. If rights were a matter of opinion, it might matter what the universe "thinks" (I'm speaking metaphorically, just like you did). If rights were a matter of opinion, it might matter that they might only be instrumental values toward a chosen goal (of some men, somewhere).


I didn't say rights were a matter of "opinion", my reference to the universe not having an opinion was meant to illustrate that the universe itself cannot be said to have values (it can't, it's not a conscious being, it has no thoughts) and rights are predicated on values (values that can only be formed through conscious thought), so it makes no sense at all to say rights are therefore "natural", because nature does not give rise to values which would give rise to rights. Rights cannot be natural existants, because they only exist for a particular value-determind goal, and only men can arrive at such values, so it is not natural at all, it is man-made. It actually cheapens it to appeal to its origin from "nature". To say it is natural is just another excuse to put some religiosity to the origin of rights. How can nature have created rights? There is no shame in calling it man-made, and there is no threat of intellectually losing your argument to those who do not wish to recognize the concept of rights by appealing to the origin of rights from man's mind. And I did not mean to suggest rights are a matter of opinion because to say that can suggest the concept of rights cannot be arrived at objectively, but rather each individual person studying the facts of reality would each arrive at a different conclusion even if their reasoning is sound and they all valued life. But that's not the case, if your reasoning is sound, and if you value life, you then must arrive at a concept of rights.

An alternate view is to discover the right answers to things (by looking at nature)


Meaning what? Just by looking at nature cannot at all lead one to arrive at a concept of rights. It makes no sense, it requires a purpose for having such a concept, namely a value-determined goal, and nature has no values, only men.

On this alternate view, rights aren't (a concept) created in order to attain a goal, they're discovered (by looking at nature) to be the facts of the matter.


That's absurd. There is no fact of nature that man must value a eudaimonic existence. It is a fact that if you value a eudaimonic existence, you must recognize that recognizing rights are absolutely necessary for such an existence. But there is nothing in nature at all to suggest a eudaimonic existence is "natural". On the contrary it was natural for man to just live long enough to produce offspring. From a psychological standpoint I believe appealing to rights as "natural" to be demeaning to man, because I view it as not giving credit where credit's due for such a marvelous intellectual achievement.

An analogy might be a bunch of folks thinking and living as if the world were flat, until this wrong thought didn't help them anymore (think of Columbus sailing across the ocean). At that point, what's needed is for them to discover the facts of the matter -- rather than to merely create a concept that the world is round (in order to accomplish the goal of sailing across the ocean without falling off). We wouldn't say they created the round-world concept in order to attain the goal of sailing around the world -- we'd say they discovered the facts of the matter and then proceeded to go from there.


Your dropping the context Ed. In this example you are speaking of empirical facts, and being wrong about them because you have incomplete data, not value based principles, on which such a principle could not be arrived at unless you specifically valued a eudaimonic existence. It's wrong to analogize this way. The "Earth is round" is not a value based statement.

I originally wrote:

For hundreds of thousands of years man lived without any recognition of rights, yet from an evolutionary biological perspective, he has survived, and it was a 100% natural process, no recognition of rights were needed for this kind of survival, but it wasn't survival in any kind of flourishing way during the majority of this time. Man's life in the absence of any recognition of rights was a brutal, harsh and brief existence marked by constant violence. So who is to say rights are "natural"? It makes no sense, man existed in nature without respecting anyone's rights for hundreds of millennia.


Ed you wrote:

I disagree with this. We've always had rights.


I'm cutting off your quote right there because right away you've dropped some important language I provided. I said man for hundred of millenia had no recognition of rights, I didn't say they had no rights. Meaning while certainly no one had formulated the concept yet, the fact that the moral sanction of rights is required for a eudaimonic existence was and is always the case, so in that sense you're right, we always had rights but man did not always recognize such a concept because throughout history, most of the time many men did not choose to use reason.

Rights are a fact (is) and they are derived from a particular moral code (an ought) based on particular values. The ought becomes an is. I.e.,

If you value a eudaimonic existence, you MUST recognize that man must be free to pursue such an existence (the right).

That statement is a fact, but it is predicated on a value, a specific condition. It is not conditionless, and by appealing to rights as having their origin in nature does imply there are no values at all attached to it, and is instead conditionless. That is what makes it no better than appealing to rights as divine in their origin. So for example saying the Earth is round has no value conditions attached to it. It's simply round. It's not round because man values life, it's not round because of any values whatsoever, it's just round.






(Edited by John Armaos on 4/14, 5:48pm)


Post 49

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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John,

You make good points. The issue -- even according to Rand herself -- is a hard one; perhaps one of the least understood things in philosophy. Like Bill warned, it'll take concentration / discipline not to talk past one another.

I'll think about your answer some more, and then answer you soon.

Ed


Post 50

Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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Not to hijack this discussion, but something just occurred to me. As I noted in a previous post, Wikipedia defines "natural rights" as follows:"Natural rights (also called moral rights or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity. In contrast, legal rights (sometimes also called civil rights or statutory rights) are rights conveyed by a particular polity, codified into legal statutes by some form of legislature, and as such are contingent upon local laws, customs, or beliefs. Natural rights are thus necessarily universal, whereas legal rights are culturally and politically relative."

It occurred to me that a similar distinction could be made between "natural morality" and "dictated morality." Natural morality is morality that is not contingent upon the laws, customs or beliefs of a particular society or polity. In contrast, dictated morality is one that is mandated by religious or political authorities, and varies with different religions or political systems. Natural morality is thus necessarily universal, whereas dictated morality is religiously and politically relative.

Natural rights are the ethical corollary of natural morality. Rights and morality are "natural," because man is a part of nature and because he has a specific nature with certain survival requirements. Morality is simply a means to an end. The end -- the satisfaction of his biological needs and values -- prescribes the means, which are the actions that best enable him to achieve that end. The end and the means required to achieve it exist, whether man recognizes them or not. They are part of nature, because they are a part of his nature.

- Bill

Post 51

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 5:42amSanction this postReply
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Adding to Dwyer's post, Ayn Rand wrote, "But, in fact, the source of rights is man's nature." (Man's Rights, VOS 111).

Post 52

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Merlin.

However, when I checked VOS, I didn't find the quotation that you cited on Page 111, either in the paperback or hardback edition. Upon further checking, I found it on Page 94 in the paperback and on Page 126 in the hardback.

- Bill

Post 53

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I got page 111 from The Objectivism Research CD-ROM.  It doesn't say what edition of the book was used.

Post 54

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Is the source of man's rights his nature, or nature? I can see how referring to "man's nature" as something completely different than saying the source is from "nature". The former can be interpreted as having the origin of rights from man himself, the latter I can see implies some sort of universal existent like the gravitational constant. What was Rand referring to? I'm guessing by everything else she wrote about rights, that she meant the former.



(Edited by John Armaos on 4/15, 9:57am)


Post 55

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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So, are you saying, John, that man is not a part of nature?

- Bill

Post 56

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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In what sense are you using the word nature? The word can be used in many different contexts with different meanings. Would you call man-made inventions a part of nature? Is plastic a part of nature? Is a car part of nature? Is a eudaimonic existence a "natural" existence? Customarily I don't think the term nature is used in that way. We generally make distinctions between what man creates and what is natural. How are you using the word and to what specifically about man do you want to apply it to?

Post 57

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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In what sense are you using the word nature? The word can be used in many different contexts with different meanings. Would you call man-made inventions a part of nature? Not in the sense I was using it. Is plastic a part of nature? Is a car part of nature? Is a eudaimonic existence a "natural" existence?
Remember, I asked if you considered man a part of nature -- according to your definition of "nature"! Are you seriously equating man with plastic and car parts -- in other words, with man-made inventions? And if you are not, then on what grounds would you deny that man himself is a part of "nature"?

- Bill


Post 58

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Bill I'm not following you. I was talking about rights, so I don't know why you are asking me if man is a part of nature. If Rand referred to something as "man's nature" in the context of a rights discussion, I would interpret that as something similar to saying man has the capacity for reason, hence it's in his nature to come up with a variety of value-determined concepts like 'rights'. Asking me if man is a part of nature is a different question than asking if 'rights' are a part of nature. A tornado is a natural phenomenon, it is part of nature. I suppose man is also a part of nature, but rights are not a part of nature anymore than a car is a part of nature, rights are a concept created by man to serve his own particular values.

Would you say "Socialism" is in nature if you think any concept man creates is a part of nature? If not why not? Man created the concept of Socialism, and it's been practiced around the world for more than a century. Is "Socialism" natural because man is of nature and man created the idea? Does that make any more sense than saying the origin of rights are from "nature"? Was there anything meaningful at all conveyed by making such a statement?

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Post 59

Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Bill I'm not following you. I was talking about rights, so I don't know why you are asking me if man is a part of nature. If Rand referred to something as "man's nature" in the context of a rights discussion, I would interpret that as something similar to saying man has the capacity for reason, hence it's in his nature to come up with a variety of value-determined concepts like 'rights'. Asking me if man is a part of nature is a different question than asking if 'rights' are a part of nature. A tornado is a natural phenomenon, it is part of nature. I suppose man is also a part of nature, but rights are not a part of nature anymore than a car is a part of nature, rights are a concept created by man to serve his own particular values.
So you're saying that just as man didn't discover a car but "created" it, so he didn't discover rights but "created" them. But that raises a very interesting problem, doesn't it?! For if man created rights rather than discovered them, then before he created them, he didn't possess them, just as before he created a car, he didn't possess it. Thus, according to you, prior to his creation of rights, he had no right to life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness, and, accordingly, no one had a moral obligation to respect it. No one had an obligation to abstain from initiating force against him. It was only after he created rights that the obligation to respect his freedom came into existence. Prior that, man was perfectly justified in enslaving and murdering others.

I would say it's just the opposite -- that rights were discovered not created by man -- that they existed before he recognized and conceptualized them. Recall Rand's statement, "The source of man's rights is not divine law or congressional law, but the law of identity." The law of identity is a law of reality. Man did not create the law of identity; he discovered and conceptualized it. Similarly, man did not create the wrongness of initiating force against others; he discovered and conceptualized it.
Would you say "Socialism" is in nature if you think any concept man creates is a part of nature? If not why not? Man created the concept of Socialism, and it's been practiced around the world for more than a century. Is "Socialism" natural because man is of nature and man created the idea?
Socialism is a bogus ideal; it has no sound basis in reality, which means in nature. Individual rights do.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 4/16, 12:02am)


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