If I'm not an Objectivist, what am I?

In the ethical standards thread, I just posted the paragraph:

If you /are/ still at least reading this: given how many points of agreement exist between my beliefs and those of Objectivism, I have yet to find another philosophy that is as congruent to my own as it. If-and-when I do, I'll change my self-description from Objectivist to whatever-it-is-ist. Until I do, though, I will continue to call myself Objectivist, or some derivation thereof, even if certain points of disagreement between myself and other Objectivists are known to exist. If you would like me to stop calling myself an Objectivist, then I would welcome any help in exploring what other label would better apply.

So. As the thread title asks, if I am, in fact, not an Objectivist, what /am/ I? What are the options? What questions need to be answered to differentiate between the various possibilities?

To help start things going, a few of the words that I've used to describe myself in the past include: rationalist, skeptic, freethinker, empiricist, scientist, materialist, naturalist, secular humanist, agnostic gnostic, igtheistic ignostic, libertarian monarchist, neo-objectivist, playtester, licensed ham, and ordained minister of the First Church of Atheism.

(Yes, you read that right, 'libertarian' /and/ 'monarchist'. Here in Canada, our Queen nearly always happens to be busy dealing with a whole other country an ocean away, which allows her to serve the useful service for us of /occupying/ the position of head-of-state without /using/ it, thus helping to prevent the local politicians from trying to seize absolute power for themselves. Every little bit that helps reduce their abuses of our citizens' rights helps, after all. :) )

Post 1

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 7:15am

Post 2

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 8:49am

Mr. Boese,

I don't care if you call yourself an objectivist. I would simply like the words you use to self describe contain references to skills by which you could make a living, like "Engineer", "Technician", "Small Business Owner", "Manager", even "Grocery Store Clerk", then perhaps you wouldn't be so inclined to justify your fellow citizens supporting you at the point of a gun.

From Anthem:
�Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars.�

You say "I would not be alive without National Healthcare". You do not know the untapped resources, both your own and your fellow citizens, that were not allowed to come into play because of the coercive system you live under. This is where your arguments break down. You have not the conception of "benevolent universe" that Ayn Rand had, this is an important element of Objectivism.

Post 3

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 9:54am

Mike,

Unfortunately, whether you think the system I live under is a good system or a bad one, it /is/ the system I live under, have had to deal with, have to deal with now, and will have to deal with for some time to come. Whatever Rand has said about how such a system should work, or what a perfect system would be, neither of those specific areas of commentary provide very much useful advice for dealing with the world-as-it-is.

As for the words I use to describe myself, I consciously excluded those dealing with my current employment situation, simply for privacy purposes - the same reason I try to avoid spreading too many photos of myself online. I am sure if someone went to some effort they could find out more about me than I would prefer, but that doesn't mean I have to make it easy for them. In addition, describing my current job would seem to have little relevance to which system of philosophy best describes mine - both Engineers and Grocery Store Clerks can be Objectivists, and both Technicians and Managers can be utilitarians. My job does not define me; if I were to become employed by a new employer in an unrelated field, I would still be who I am, and have roughly the beliefs I do now. You might as well be asking for my favourite colour.

That said, if you want to ask me to describe my philosophical /beliefs/, and their structure, rather than my job, I'll be more than happy to try to figure them out with you. That is, after all, what I started this thread for.

Post 4

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 12:14pm

Daniel,

I'm not sure why you need a label, much less why you'd stick with one that, when applied to you, is inaccurate. But if you want labels, just keep digging to see where you fit. Research! I suggest you start small (avoid ascriptions to entire philosophic schools), and start with descriptions. For instance, judging from the other thread, you might describe yourself in part as favoring agent-neutral consequentialism and pragmatic governance. You might also describe yourself as rejecting theism, deontology, agent-centered ethics, and strictly rights-securing governance.

Jordan

Post 5

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 12:16pm

Jordan,

Now /that/ is a helpful post. :)

And as soon as I find out what all the terms you just used truly mean, I expect that it will turn out to be even more helpful. ;)

Post 6

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 12:27pm

Daniel,

You said: "Whatever Rand has said about how such a system should work, or what a perfect system would be, neither of those specific areas of commentary provide very much useful advice for dealing with the world-as-it-is."

If this is what you believe then you are not an Objectivist.

Post 7

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 1:01pm

Mike,

I was referring specifically to those specific areas of commentary, which were what you'd seemed to be referring to in post #2 of this thread. I was not necessarily referring to Objectivism as a whole, especially commentary on its philosophy made by people /other/ than Rand.

Post 8

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 3:27pm

Daniel, please take the time to answer this quiz. If you do, then I will likely be able to tell you what you are (philosophically):
========================
Thompson Worldview Sorter, revised 2008 version (a quiz about your own sense of life, of values, and of reality)

Choose the best answer ...

1. It's best to envision man as
a) compassionate
b) flawed
c) frail
d) a hero
e) a victim

2. The universe is
a) dangerous
b) an enemy
c) a helpful friend
d) knowable
e) a mystery

3. The "good" is something that
a) exists independently of man
b) is different for everyone
c) minimizes pain and suffering
d) comes from God
e) exists in relation to man

4. The moral purpose of your life should be
a) service to a greater good
b) to minimize pain and suffering
c) to please God
d) your happiness
e) your immediate, short-term interests

5. The noblest activity would be
a) opportunism
b) practicing humility
c) prayer
d) productive achievement
e) sacrifice

6. Reason is
a) our best way to understand reality
b) the antithesis of emotion
c) helpful only part of the times
d) our only way to understand reality
e) used by all life forms

7. Man knows things by
a) feeling
b) intuition
c) reason
d) remembering (innate ideas)
e) revelation

8. Perception is
a) "reality" (naive realism)
b) "our" reality (subjectivism)
c) a direct pickup of environmental variance
d) distorting (because it's "processed" information)
e) indirect (a perfect mental view of captured and imperfect sense data)

9. The ideal social system is
a) anarcho-libertarianism (rule by the market)
b) benevolent despotism (rule by the wise and compassionate)
c) laissez-faire capitalism (constitutional republic; rule of objective law)
d) a mixed economy (rule by bureaucracy)
e) full democracy (rule of the mob)

10. Philosophy meets our need of
a) competition (as in debates)
b) contemplation
c) entertainment/distraction
d) a framework for action
e) self-expression

11. Philosophic axioms are
a) an antidote to the arbitrary
b) intrinsic knowledge
c) true but insufficiently useful
d) true but irrelevant
e) true but overrated

12. Existence is
a) meaningful apart from identity
b) expressed only through identity
c) relative
d) intrinsic
e) subjective (because only particulars exist)

13. Causality is
a) overrated
b) a useful fiction
c) an unknowable intrinsic
d) identity in action
e) relative

14. Consciousness is
a) subjective (unique creation of existence)
b) subjective (unique interpretation of existence)
c) more powerful when shared by a group
d) more powerful when coming from God
e) objective (identification of reality)

15. The mind is
a) a (physical) part of the body
b) an entity unto itself
c) an aspect of man
d) an aspect of God in man
e) a useful fiction

16. Concepts are
a) intrinsic knowledge
b) subjective (because of always being formed by individuals, each with their own unique, perceptual histories with the world)
c) what allow for human objectivity
d) relative
e) objects inside our minds, rather than a method of awareness used by our minds

17. Definitions are
a) objective, factual, and necessary
b) relative
c) limiting
d) subjective
e) intrinsic (unrelated to our level of knowledge)

18. Rationality is
a) the volitional use of logic
b) computation (including the non-volitional computation of a computer)
c) present whenever any living thing's behavior is modified by environmental cues
d) a pipe dream (because we're emotional)
e) the short-sighted, narrow-minded behavior predicted by philosophically-bankrupt economists and game theorists

19. Justice is best served by
a) deterrence (it reforms society by setting harsh examples out of the first criminals caught)
b) mercy (because mercy for predators is not injustice to victims)
c) reform (by making the punishment fit the man)
d) restitution (because it makes the victim feel better)
e) retribution (where a wrong is righted because the punishment fits the crime)

20. Pride is
a) building the kind of character, through habitual action, that makes your life worth sustaining and underlies all other achievement (a recognition of your psychological continuity)
b) morally optional
c) something that goes before a fall
d) haughty and arrogant
e) sinful

21. Altruism is
a) kindness, goodwill, and respect for the rights of others
b) about helping others
c) about sacrificing yourself
d) what God wants from us
e) needed for authentic benevolence or good will among men

22. Individual rights are
a) useful fictions
b) relative (dictators don't violate anyone's rights because they're acting in a social system that doesn't conceptually acknowledge them in the first place; and conceptual acknowledgement is required for individual rights to exist)
c) metaphysical requirements for human success and happiness
d) not required (we can be successful and happy without them)
e) rights to the product of the efforts of others (rights to enslave)

23. Morality is
a) required for success in the world
b) God-given
c) whatever you want it to be
d) a useful fiction
e) only important when dealing with others

24. The use of force or fraud when dealing with others is
a) often necessary
b) evil, but practical
c) destructive to the condition of freedom needed by man to think and succeed
d) okay when it's done by the government
e) inevitable because of intrinsic human defects or conflicts of interest

25. Being a hero requires
a) moving mountains
b) others' viewing you as a hero (in their eyes)
c) out-competing others
d) progressively living truer to your own highest values
e) moral perfection
========================

I'm in the process of developing an answer key which effectively sorts folks into 4 or 5 broad world-views (i.e., philosophies). Any work which I do with you will help me move forward on this project of mine.

Ed

Post 9

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 3:58pm

I'm going to start calling myself a progressive liberal.

Post 10

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 4:13pm

Hi Ed,

Your competition: Philosophy Quiz! :-)

Jordan

Post 11

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 4:36pm

Well Teresa that would be the more nuanced position to take. I for one will start calling myself a Nietzschean Shintoist. :)

Post 12

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 5:39pm

We're all Hegelian Fluxers! Nothing is solid, stable or knowable. Words mean whatever we want!

Weeeeeee!

Daniel, don't make me regret saying that I didn't think you were a troll.

Post 13

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 6:20pm

Since we're all minorities[of one], guess we can describe ourselves as we wish, huh... ;-)

Post 14

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 7:07pm

Jordan,

I don't know where you found this quiz. I don't know anything about its author, but I clicked the thing and took the quiz and you would not believe what I got for a score! Here is what it told me:

*****************
You Scored as Strong Egoism

Your life is very much guided by the concept of Egoism: You work primarily to promote your own interests.

�I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.�
�I am not primarily an advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; and I am not primarily an advocate of egoism, but of reason. If one recognizes the supremacy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest follows."
*****************

And here are my scores along the listed indices:

*****************
Hedonism -- 100
Justice -- 100
Strong Egoism -- 100
Existentialism -- 100
Kantianism -- 75
Nihilism -- 25
Utilitarianism -- 25
Apathy -- 15
Divine Command -- 0
*****************

As some of you may have guessed, I have big problems with some of my scores. As an exercise, I'd like for you others to tell me which ones I likely take issue with (and possibly even why I take issue with them). Not only would it be a super-fun exercise, chock full of excitement and suspense, I also think it'd be an informative thing for Daniel to see.

Ed

Post 15

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 7:16pm

In order of what I think Ed takes exception to:

1) Existentialism
2) Kantianism
3) Hedonism
4) Nihilism
5) Utilitarianism
6) Apathy

I thought the test was a deliberately skewed joke.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 12/23, 7:17pm)

Post 16

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 8:07pm

5 out of 6???

Not bad, Teresa!. Not bad at all. You've got me at least 80% pegged. ***As a thought experiment, onlookers, try to think if you would be so sure about the preferences of various people in your life (family, friends, co-workers, etc.). *** The only thing inaccurate with your answer, Teresa, is that 2 of the 6 items are juxtaposed -- though you did name all 6 items correctly (and almost in the exact order).

Ed

Post 17

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 8:37pm

Hi Ed,

I googled "philosophy quiz" and that popped up. It's good that it pegged you correctly: strong egoism.

Jordan

Post 18

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 9:23pm

2 of the 6? hmmmm - hedonism and apathy? ;-)
or better, hedonism and nilhilism...

(Edited by robert malcom on 12/23, 9:26pm)

Post 19

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 9:32pm