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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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I believe that it was in an essay on aesthetics that Ayn Rand said that there is no such thing as "Objectivist art" but only art. In The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Thomas Kuhn pointed out that today we still have Aristotlean philosophers adding to the body of Aristotleanism, but no physicists or chemists expanding on and continuing the tradition of phlogiston theory.

Schools of knowledge center on theories. In sociology, we have macro, midrange, and micro theories; and we have metatheory. Many sociologists give voice to their work with one or another theories with easy labels such as "conflict" or "structural functionalism." Sociology suffers from deep conceptual problems and those labels reflect that.

On the other hand, physicists argue string theory, which may be a micro-theory (does not change structural engineering) with macro-level implications. In other words, unlike Existentialists and Rationalists, physicists do not identify themselves as "Action-at-a-Distancists" or "Fieldists." The concepts are known, and may remain useful in work but they do not encapsulate an entire school of physics.

Ayn Rand's claim about "Objectivist art" raises a profound question. Rather than identifying this as a school of philosophy which is then co-equal with any other school, it makes perfect sense to call this "philosophy". Then, other paradigms such as logical positivism and existentialism can be placed in historical context, as would be geocentric astronomy, and shamanistic medicine.

(Just to note: geocentric astronomy still has its uses. When planning a long drive, I map my course on the surface of the Earth, mindful perhaps of the available "daylight" and the directions of sun "rise" and sun "set" and I might even check my direction at night by find the North Star and when I see Venus at sun "set" I might say, "Hmmm... Venus is the Evening Star tonight...")

To the extent that any specific claim of any philosophical theorist may have interest, it would be a micro-theory. For instance, the utilitarian claim that the greatest good benefits the greatest number would be a micro-theory. It cannot contradict the known facts about morality, but it can suggest an interesting application to be tested across certain cases. And, so, if in a business meeting someone proposes a course of action that brings a lot of misery to many people, I might point out that this lacks a certain utility as a common way to say that this person is a context-dropping range-of-the-moment muscle-mystic who falsely dichotomized fact and value.

Consider that I might propose a "rationalist" argument based on logical deduction from known truths, but have no empirical evidence for it. My research is incomplete. I would identify it for what it is: a rationalist assertion. I would not intend that Rationalism (so-called) explains "everything." Similarly, you might perceive some specific cases which appear to have certain commonalities, but for which you have no explanatory theory of cause and effect. Your "empiricist" observation would not be intended as so-called "Empiricism." In this context, then, the word "objectivist" would mean an assertion for which both rational and empirical evidence exist in support of each other. The shorter word is "truth."


Post 1

Tuesday, December 4, 2012 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Nathaniel Branden always said he considered his field not as Objectivist Psychology but as simply psychology...

Post 2

Tuesday, December 4, 2012 - 11:53pmSanction this postReply
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He didn't always say this. He gave a course back in the '60's entitled "The Basic Principles of Objectivist Psychology."

See, for example, the thread, "The Morality of Sexual Preference" in the "Objectivism Q&A" forum.

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/ObjectivismQ&A/0348.shtml


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Post 3

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is a philosophy: it includes a set of ideas of how to learn and what a person's goals should be.

An "Objectivist" is a person who agrees with Objectivism.

MEM, what you are talking about is "Objective", which is only a learning method, it lacks any implication of goals.

The difference between an Objective idea and a True idea is: an Objective idea has confidence of being true (but could potentially be false), vs a True idea actually is consistent with reality.

====

I wish Ayn Rand didn't included her goal in "Objectivism". I disagree with how Ayn Rand asserted that she deduced a should from an is. Its not true that "all humans are x" -> "all humans should be friends with eachother and only trade (no initiation of force)". Individual humans are diferrent, including their physical & mental abilities, their inheritence of resources, and their goals.

You can say that universally, humans as a species would be more successful if a person behaved a certain way. You can tell a person they would be more successful in some aspect of life (such as health or reproduction) if a person behaved a certain way. This is what Ayn Rand did. But for an indivividual person, they are not necessarily going to care. Because their own goals, whatever they may be, are more important to them than these goals.

"Objectivism" as Ayn Rand described it is a misnomer. It should not just include Ethics based on her promoted goal of "man's life", but also include the understanding of other ethical systems. Objectivism choses all men as its set of friends. By "friend" I mean a person whom one respects their property via trade and abide by the NIoF principal with them.

One may still consider man/non-man as their friend differentiation, but others humans do not do the same. We must recognize that "man" is only one way to differentiate between friends and non-friends, and that more ethics needs to be explored. A person can have a different set of organisms whom they consider their friends (plants, wild animals, country, city, old, white, church member, rich, poor, productive, lazy, inept). Given that a person chooses a different set as friends than "all humans", a person would have very different ethical implications on how they interact with other kinds of humans.

If I were to name "Objectivism", I would not include in its definition that it's primary goal is "man's life". Instead I would define it as a philosophy of reason and objective (scientific method learned) ideas. It should include understanding of any ethical system, no matter the ethical system's goals are based on. So "Objectivism" would then be a relativistic philosophy.

If I were to name Ayn Rand's philosophy, I would name it "Objectivism with the goal of man's life". Or maybe "Man's Life Objectivism".

There are no conflicts of interest between two human practitioners of Man's Life Objectivism.


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Post 4

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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while that is true, Bill, he writes in his The Psychology of Self-Esteem introduction - "...for many years, when lecturing on my psychological theories, it was my practice to designate my system as 'Objectivist Psychology'. I knew, however, that this was only a temporary designation - a working title - and that it is not appropriate to name a system of psychology, or any science, after a philosophy...

"It is, of course, an indication that a science is at an early stage of development when that science is still divided into schools, each with its own name. In this sense, I regret that it is necessary to designate my work by any name at all.

"And, in truth, in my own mind I do not call what I am doing Biocentric Psychology. I call it psychology."

Post 5

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

The conversion of an is to a should is the heart of Ayn Rand's ethics. It is what makes ethics an objective (that's a lower-case o) discipline instead of a collection of whim-based assertions of what one should do or not do.

Here is what Ayn Rand said in "The Objectivist Ethics"
It is only an ultimate goal, and end in itself, that makes the existence of values possible. Metaphysically, life is the only phenomenon that is an end in itself: a value gained and kept by a constant process of action. Epistemologically, the concept of “value” is genetically dependent upon and derived from the antecedent concept of “life.” To speak of “value” as apart from “life” is worse than a contradiction in terms. “It is only the concept of ‘Life’ that makes the concept of ‘Value’ possible.”

In answer to those philosophers who claim that no relation can be established between ultimate ends or values and the facts of reality, let me stress that the fact that living entities exist and function necessitates the existence of values and of an ultimate value which for any given living entity is its own life. Thus the validation of value judgments is to be achieved by reference to the facts of reality. The fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do. So much for the issue of the relation between “is” and “ought.”
If you want an understanding of other ethical systems, beyond what is given in different pieces of Objectivist literature, then you can go to their sources, or to a comparative study, or take a history of ethics/philosophy approach.

It appears that you are making an approach that is really more about animal rights, or rights of entities other than humans - is that the case? Because Ayn Rand created an ethical system for man, based upon human nature. We are humans and that does seem to be the rational way to go for an understanding of how we can live together. It doesn't mean that other organisms can't be defined/discussed/valued/etc., but that it will be done so from the frame of reference of a human being. I.e., by what standard, in what context, and of what value to whom?

I'm a human. I can only value from my frame of reference, which is my life and not just some free-floating abstract of a living being but a living, specific individual who is a human being. Objectivist ethics are not just grounded in human nature, but are also individualistic rather than collectivist. Both of those perspectives (human nature and rational self-interest) are objectively derived - from the facts of reality - and contradict other ethical systems.

When you advocate for Objectivism to include an understanding of any ethical system, I'd say that it does... that is, it has a position on other ethical systems and it examines the different positions that can be taken. It declares some principles correct, and others wrong. A truly relativistic philosophy would hold that all philosophies might well be equally true under this or that circumstance. Rand and Objectivism would say that is illogical, impractical and undesirable.

You defined friends as, "By 'friend' I mean a person whom one respects their property via trade and abide by the NIoF principal with them." Then a few paragraphs later you say, "A person can have a different set of organisms whom they consider their friends (plants, wild animals, country, city, old, white, church member, rich, poor, productive, lazy, inept). Given that a person chooses a different set as friends than 'all humans', a person would have very different ethical implications on how they interact with other kinds of humans." This is confusing. By your definition and this last sentence, a plant or bacterium would be a potential property owner with whom one could engage in trade and abide the NIoF principle with.

Post 6

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

There are environmentalists. There are ethnic and religious supremacists. All of these groups of people could benefit from objective ideas in Objectivism, but instead of living man - a qua - man, they live x - a qua - x, where x is a group member.

How is it objective (from the perspective of a man) that he never steal from white people, when he couldn't care less if all white people had no resources and died from starvation?

You could answer: Because he could benefit from trading with white people!

I respond: Benefit from his perspective? Negative, because he would rather live in a world where he could not see a white person then to have the benefit of trading with white people. He'd rather people of his skin color were in control of the world.

(Skin color as a silly example, you could replace skin color with any trait physical/mental/goal).

An "is" can imply a "should" if and only if the "is" contains some other "should". What is Ayn Rand's implied should? "If you want to live like a man then..." "Some men live like..." "Men should live like..."

Some men don't want to live like other men. And for them, what is their Objectivist philosophy?



Post 7

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

If there were different versions of Chemistry (as there once was when Alchemy was considered reasonable), does that mean we should have accepted them all? Should we have had something called "relativist" chemistry? Or, do we assume that there are objective truths in the world of chemistry and that we should weed out those that aren't true?
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You asked, "How is it objective (from the perspective of a [black] man) that he never steal from white people, when he couldn't care less if all white people had no resources and died from starvation?"

How is it 'objective' (meaning having a rationally determined correspondence to reality) from the perspective of man who is a racist (a perspective that is not objective, not rational)? That is like asking how is it objective to be not being objective? Why should anyone to accept as valid and desirable the views of a racist when deciding if it is okay to steal from people based upon their skin color?
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Dean, what if you'd said, "Some men don't want to live like other men. And for them, what is their medical science? Or, chemistry? Men can have their own opinons, right or wrong, rational or foolish, but no one gets to have their own facts. Men can ignore the rights of others, but they can't do so without being wrong.

You are treating all philosophies as of potentially equal value, equally applicable. If we want to flourish, that simply isn't so.
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You said, "Some men don't want to live like other men. And for them, what is their Objectivist philosophy?"

No one has to want to live like other men - i.e., to make conformity a major ethical goal. But we all have no choice but to live as a man. I can't get out of my body, my mind, my nature and live as a bird or a rock. I assert that no other man has the right to take my property. Others don't agree. We contradict each other. Only one of us can be right. If, in fact, Objectivism is right in saying that individual rights can be logically derived from man's nature, then the Objectivists are right and the others are wrong. Asking "what is their Objectivist philosophy?" makes no sense. In this area, if they don't agree with individual rights, then they aren't Objectivists.
---------------

Maybe someone else will comment on your position - I don't think you're grasping what I'm saying.

Post 8

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Given a person that has no goals, please provide me a deduction of something he should do in order to accomplish his goals.

No goal, no shoulds. You can say "any man should do x if he wants to live", but you can't say "any man should do x".

I should edit my post above to say "What is Ayn Rand's implied goal?"

Chemistry and Biology use the scientific method, and make no statements with "should" in them. Clearly these do not apply to what I am talking about, they are part of being objective.

I provided an example of using skin color. Although I think it is foolish to treat a known individual the same as an unknown member of his race (allowing racial prejudice to override more accurate knowledge) (not implying the amount of difference between races)... I recognize that some people really do have the goal of wiping other races off of the planet. They could potentially use Objectivist philosophy, except instead of treating all men as friends, they would only treat their preferred races as friends.

What should a person who has such a goal do? This will give us some expectation of what they will do. What should we do given our expectations of what they will do?

I don't think racism is as important today vs a bigger problem. For example, we have major class warfare today. Poor/lazy people are the majority, and they have the goal of parasiting off productive people via voting to tax them, make them use fiat, inflate the money supply, regulate requirements that customers don't want to pay for, and using tort to transfer responsibility.

What should a person do that wants to receive redistributed resources rather than create the resources himself? A person who: doesn't care how much more marketable resources he could have if he worked to create marketable resources, instead he would rather live with fewer marketable resource and have more free time to pursue his other (non-marketable resource collecting) interests?

An excellent example is a family who lives exclusively on redistributed wealth. The mother and children are only fed resources that had been non-consensually taken from others. The mother doesn't care about creating market values for others, or that she is a parasite on others. She only cares that her children are able to live and successfully reproduce. If she has more children, she will be more successful in seeing more of them succeed. If society collapses into chaos due to there being so many other mothers like her, she doesn't care... its more important that she had more children, which increases her chances of success of at least one of her descendants succeeding in life.

Success in life: measured by duration of existence of a life form and its descendants.

Please try to deduce how the welfare queen described above is not being objective. Try to find a contradiction.

Post 9

Wednesday, December 5, 2012 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

No one is ever without goals, however pathetic. A person totally berift of any desires, and totally distraught who wants to die, has the goal of dying. You are looking at people, like your example of a welfare queen, and seeing different goals, goals you wouldn't choose and saying they aren't goals. Or that they aren't objective goals.
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You wrote:
Chemistry and Biology use the scientific method, and make no statements with "should" in them. Clearly these do not apply to what I am talking about, they are part of being objective.
Morality is also a part of being objective, if one approaches it that way. Neither biology or chemistry would be objective if they weren't approached that way.

In both Chemistry and Biology one SHOULD use the scientific method. If we have done this experiment correctly we SHOULD continue to the next. Each of the organisms, being products of evolution, SHOULD strive to reproduce.

If a person is alive, they have choices, and if they have choices they have goals.
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You wrote:
I recognize that some people really do have the goal of wiping other races off of the planet. [Racists] could potentially use Objectivist philosophy, except instead of treating all men as friends, they would only treat their preferred races as friends.
No, they couldn't 'use' Objectivist philosophy and still be racists. And you didn't answer the issues I brought up regarding your strange redefinition of "friends" in post 5.

You asked:
What should a person who has such a goal [wiping other races off the planet] do?"
You are asking a "SHOULD" question? They should not initiate force, which kind of screws up their plans.

You asked:
What should a person do that wants to receive redistributed resources rather than create the resources himself?"
They should realize that human nature is such that being productive and independent are values and that we are rewarded with far higher self-esteem when those goals are pursued.

What SHOULD a person do who drinks so much alcohol, that their health is being seriously harmed?
- They SHOULD drink less alcohol.
What if that is not a goal that they hold?
- They SHOULD choose to change their goals.
What if they don't?
- They will suffer objective harm. They SHOULD value their health.
But what if they don't?
- They will suffer the consequences. What would you do? Tell them that harmful practices are as valid as those that aren't? Tell them that there are no "SHOULDS" as if there were no consequences to choices?
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You wrote:
Success in life: measured by duration of existence of a life form and its descendants.
By what standard is that success? In what context?

Does that mean that a person who chooses to have no kids can not be declared successful? What about Rand? Would a person who lived a 50 year life in fear, or in a comma, be said to have had as successful a life as someone who was active and happy for 40 years?
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Human nature... the phrase that implies that we have aspects of our identity that we share with all other humans... the phrase the indicates the area of knowledge regarding how we are wired... human nature is such that to not be independent and productive will mean a lower level of happiness. How is it objective to be less happy than more happy?

We require reason to live (part of our nature) and this makes contradictions our enemy. The welfare queen is living a contradiction. She is acting as if it is okay for her to take money (via the government) from other, but would shriek in horror if money were taken from her. She can't have her cake and eat it too, and I don't see why you want to be her spokesperson in making such a claim.

A drug addict can be said to "not care" about a lot of things, but that doesn't mean he is right!

Post 10

Thursday, December 6, 2012 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Sorry I'm very busy lately so its hard to reply to all of your points that I'd like to.

The scientific method is the process of discovering how differing sequences of actions (plans) differ in changing the state of a part of reality. A sequence containing no actions (an empty plan, a plan to do nothing) is also a valid thing to compare. To perform the scientific method:
1. Observe the state of two (or more) practically identical subsets of reality.
2. Perform a different plan on each subset.
3. Observe the resulting states.
4. Compare the resulting states to thier corresponding initial states to discover changes in each subset.
5. Compare the changes from each subset to discover differences between effects of different plans.
6. Repeat 1-5 to increase confidence that the subsets were actually practically identical (that no other actions or differences caused observed differences beteen subsets), and hence increase confidence that associated differences of effects actually do correlate with different plans.

The scientific method does not compare the results of sequences of actions and try to conclude which one is better. It only predicts the differences of effects of different plans.

"science" is a collection of observations and predictions of differences of effects of different plans. Biology and chemistry are collections of observations and predictions of differences of effects of different plans... relating to different subjects.

One should use observations and the scientific method in order to learn about what exists and how reality works in the subjects of chemistry and biology. But the sciences of chemistry and biology do not conclude which plans are better.

A "should" is a conclusion of the process of planning. The process of planning concludes what a thing should do given inputs of goals (resulting state), what currently exists (initial state), plans that can be performed (sequences of actions), and how things work (predictions of differences of effects of plans). Here are the steps in planning:
1. Create (or acquire by other means) a set of sequences of actions (plans) to compare.
2. Predicts the results of each plan via starting with the current state of reality and applying predicted differences of effects of each plan in order to predict the resulting state of reality for each plan.
3. Compare these results with the goal state to get the match % for each plan.
4. Compare the match %s. The plan that results in the highest match % has the highest predicted goal attainment, it is the best found plan.

A plan that an entity "should" do is a plan that was predicted via planning to have the greatest goal attainment. Entities do what they themselves predict is the best plan. The plan they consider best is not necissarily better than a plan than another person evaluates as best. It is most always not the actual optimal plan if the entity has a large set of possible sequences of actions to chose from (so large that it is impossible to predict and compare the results of each sequence).

If an entity does not have a goal, it cannot conclude a should.

Side track: Information is a part of reality that does not change over time, otherwise it is corrupted/lost/stops existing/is no longer stored. Information hence only has one goal: to contine to exist. And this is a funny kind of "goal", since information cannot perform any actions by definition. Since an entity that is information cannot perform actions (actions are changes), it cannot conclude any shoulds.

I agree that things cannot have no goals, they always either sustain themselves or alter themselves. But I would disagree that any two humans (each of which are a set of a immense set of different parts) have the same exact goals. One can still look at the general goals that most humans have in common. Just because you have found a general goal, it doesn't imply that every human has that goal.

===

The welfare queen respect the property of her family members like in objectivism, but treat everything other than her family (including non-family humans) as prey. This is similar in respects to how an Objectivist respects the propery of all humans, but treats everything other than humans as prey. The difference is only which subset of organisms is respected and then which subset of organisms is considered prey.

Post 11

Thursday, December 6, 2012 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

I agree where you said, "One should use observations and the scientific method in order to learn about what exists and how reality works..." That speaks to the purpose and the content produced by this process. It is a defined, repeatable process that is used to understand an aspect of reality.

But in other parts of your post above, I think you've drawn the scientific method too tightly. From Wikipedia: "The chief characteristic which distinguishes the scientific method from other methods of acquiring knowledge is that scientists seek to let reality speak for itself, supporting a theory when a theory's predictions are confirmed and challenging a theory when its predictions prove false." The scientific method includes hypothesis, predictions (which may not have a direct empirical base), theory (which might not be testable at the time due to the historical state of technology), and it rests upon a philosophy of science which includes logic and other epistemological dictums. The scientific method has been invented by man to serve a purpose and it involves the use of imagination and creativity. It is not just a cookie-type of recipe.

Some people would claim that measurement of outcomes must be numerical and must be taken by calibrated instruments. But I would say they only have to be objective measurements adequate to the purpose of the context. Doctors might ask a patient to give a number to the pain they feel, and try a different medication and ask again for a number. It would be easy to say this isn't scientific method at work because the number is made up, subjective and the experiment isn't properly controlled, and that it isn't repeatable or even an experiment, but the fact is that the scientific method is being applied because those sloppy parameters are adequate to the context, to the purpose - and reality is allowed to speak instead of the doctor imposing his theory on a circumstance where it might not fit.

Some of the most important events to occur in this world do so in our minds, our emotions. Psychology is the science for this area. But the subjective nature of mental events have led scientists to attempt redefinitions of human psychology to eliminate the subjective in hopes of making it more amendable to their idea of scientific methodology. That is like throwing out the baby altogether because the bath water is simpler to deal with. One example of this was Watson and others with Behaviorism - a terrible failure since they started by declaring any description or mention of consciousness, feelings, emotions, thoughts, etc., not part of psychology (as they defined it). Some subject matter is just much harder to measure.

Measurement is no more than an objective comparison of an aspect of reality to a chosen standard. There must be a relationship between the chosen standard and the purpose of the measurement, it must be a standard that measures the trait central to the purpose of the measurement and the standard must be sufficiently consistent between measurements to suit the purpose's required degree of accuracy. For example, I hold my thumb and index fingers apart so that one rests upon the map location representing where I am, and the other is touching where I want to go. Then I move my hand, trying to keep the distance between the fingers from changing, so that they are on the printed distance scale to estimate the distance. My fingers won't hold a precise distance apart while I'm moving them, and their placement on the map isn't as precise as a sharply pointed instrument, but this method may be adequate to my needs at that time. Or, I take one spoonful of chocolate ice cream, then I take one spoonful of vanilla and I decide which is the most pleasant given my tastes. My purpose was to decide which ice cream to buy. I'd say that it is possible for those two examples to meet the requirements of scientific methodology in the broad sense. They aren't suitable to add to the body of scientific knowledge at large but that wasn't their purpose- there was an aspect of reality that was being induced to speak in an objective manner. Disagreements people would have are likely to be because they are talking about the process scientists should use to establish scientific knowledge and I am talking about the principles that make up scientific methodology... principles that are applicable in a wider framework.

Further, I would contend that the mental processes that are used to make new theories, large and small, contain objective thought, but do not follow scientific methodology. Scientific methodology comes along later to validate or measure or explore the new discovery.

I'll add some discussion on "shoulds" in another post.

Post 12

Thursday, December 6, 2012 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

You wrote:
A "should" is a conclusion of the process of planning. The process of planning concludes what a thing should do given inputs of goals (resulting state), what currently exists (initial state), plans that can be performed (sequences of actions), and how things work (predictions of differences of effects of plans). Here are the steps in planning:
1. Create (or acquire by other means) a set of sequences of actions (plans) to compare.
2. Predicts the results of each plan via starting with the current state of reality and applying predicted differences of effects of each plan in order to predict the resulting state of reality for each plan.
3. Compare these results with the goal state to get the match % for each plan.
4. Compare the match %s. The plan that results in the highest match % has the highest predicted goal attainment, it is the best found plan.
1. Plan 1: Purchase heroin, inject it into my arm.
Plan 2: Use the money to buy food instead of heroin and eat it.
2. Prediction: Each plan will result in a different physiological state, where my heart rate and respiration will be closer to healthy norms under one but not the other plan.
3. Heroin is so relaxing and so mitigates withdrawal symptoms that it gives a healthy heart and respiration rate - 90% of the desired state. Food does little to quiet the withdrawal symptoms - 70% of desired state.
4. Heroin shows a higher percentage of goal state. I should take heroin.

Goals are not given. They are the mechanism by which we direct actions. If we are alive, we will create goals. Our goals can be wrong because we make them and we are not omniscient. We need a guideline to indicate which goals we SHOULD adopt - a heuristic, a process, a standard. Goals are hierarchical and complex.

In moral philosophy we start with life as the value base and our nature as human beings as the context for moral values.

Why life? Because that is the most fundamental goal - to continue living. Some actions are in accord with that goal and others will not be.

Why human beings and not me, the individual? Why not a particular human being or some subset of all humans? Or, going the other way, why not something broader than human being - like all living creatures?

We can only act according to our nature - we can't fly by flapping our arms, or turn into stone to avoid being cut by a knife. We can't choose goals whose actions or whose results would not fit being human. The purpose of this area of knowledge - choosing actions that promote life, dictate that we not attempt to go broader than humans as a category.

Then why not choose our individual nature instead of human nature? Because we are purposely generalizing to determine actions that work for social life and that can be ascribed to all humans. Some values are subjective, and they aren't moral 'shoulds' - not when stated in the specific. For example, some people like chocolate ice cream, and some like vanilla. But we might say that everyone should honor, in some fashion, their gustatory tastes. That leaves what is an individual value which falls short of being universal, out of a moral code. If someone tries to say that we should eat chocolate ice cream, they have failed to establish that it is suitable to prescribe for all humans. Just as someone who proscribes a behavior as moral for one race but not another is committing the same fallacy. While the ice cream example, stated in a broad sense could become a moral value, a universal - e.g., it could be said that it is of moral value to enjoy what tastes good if eating it causes no harm.

You stated that information has the goal of continuing to exist. I don't agree that information, as such, has any goals. A rock doesn't have a goal. Any goal that is ascribed to a non-living entity is just a mental projection. A goal that is ascribed to a living entity that doesn't possess choice is more a statement of "if that creature could choose between plans, it would set a goal of..." - we would be speaking of teleology, of evolution or genetics or instincts as a kind of wiring. If I design a software program, I implement my plans and goals within the context of the programs behaviors, and later we might say the goal of the program is x - but without volition, it isn't really an entity that holds its own goals - it holds the goals of its programmer. And again we come to the need for a set of 'shoulds' that arise out of our nature as humans - because we do have choice, we must choose, and we need standards for directing those choices - for measuring the goals and we can't measure outcomes without a set of values that are drawn from a hierarchy of values that represent life as a man where being alive is a value, and flourishing is yet another value.

Post 13

Thursday, December 6, 2012 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

What if you make a program that can change its own code by using practically random events as input... and allow it to copies of itself that run independently and compete, and also allow communication of code and information between programs...

After a few billion generations, what will the "goals" of the programs be? Would you still say at that point that the program is still accomplishing the same goals that you programmed it to perform? If not, then where did the programs' goals come from?

Post 14

Thursday, December 6, 2012 - 11:32amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

There will need to be an explicit or implicit standard of value by which success is measured/implemented. Some code in the program will be enacting something similar to what natural selection does with reproductive success as the measure of evolutionary value - without that goal coded successfully you won't get the billions of generations.

What is the measure of success? Is it how many programs are replicated along a given code-line? The range of options an evolved program has? The power of a program to modify it's environment? The length of time a given variation of code persists relative to other variations?

To say something has goals (goals it owns, not goals it was given, like software that is designed, or organisms acting according to genetics alone) is to say it can choose.

The broader (or more hidden, or more implicit) the coded goals, the more it makes it look like the code has chosen outcomes... but that is just smoke and mirrors - wishful thinking - until such time as the process of an the running of a piece of software is somehow doing what we do - really making choices.

What you described is software coded to mimic the aspects of evolution in some fashion - that was the goal of the programmer. Will it result in a piece of software that can make individual choices while still adhering to the implicit goal of continuing to exist generation after generation? I doubt it, but it is in the realm of semi-plausible sci-fi.

Frankly, I don't think we understand our mechanism that instantiates choice well enough to put it into code/hardware such that the result makes independent choices. All we can say, is that we are entities that exist and we have choice, and if that is true, and given that rational people don't accept mystical explanations, then in theory it is possible that the future could see non-human entities with choice.

Post 15

Friday, December 7, 2012 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Granted that computers might have a way to go before they achieve sentience.  Also, the machinery platforms are not so important as the software.  It is the mind, not the body, that counts. 

The human brain has 100 billion neurons with 1 trillion synapses.  Moreover, our being volitional, rational creatures seems to depend on the structure of the brain not just its capacity.  Nonethless...

There are 1 billion land-line telephones, and 6 billion mobiles, and a billion personal computers, and an untallied number of business computers... racks and racks of servers... we speak of "server farms."  Speaking of farms, consider the cellphone antennaes, ubiquitous in ones and arrayed in "antenna farms" each a "neuron." Computers have printers and printers have diskdrives and memory.  Televisions, radios, flashdrives ...  coffee makers and microwaves; stoves and refrigerators ...

Back in Y2K, big insurance firms were dismayed to discover that they had COBOL programs running a million lines.  Last night, I talked to a developer whose e-commerce software has half a million rules. He's one guy. 

When the Grid becomes sentient it will seem like a surprise, but that is what "critical mass" means.


Post 16

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 12:00amSanction this postReply
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http://www.sott.net/article/254228-Artificial-brain-mimics-human-abilities-and-flaws

They are working on it!

Post 17

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 2:28amSanction this postReply
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and one day, you'll be able to talk to 'Mike' again..........;-)

Post 18

Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 4:26amSanction this postReply
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:)
"Pass the tylenol".
"Laughs good naturedly."

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