RoR: Forum

Ted I've been watching Heroes. It is a good show but I found the season finale to be somewhat disappointing.

Post 21

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 8:55am

By the way Battlestar Galactica has lost quite a bit of ratings and was canceled by the Sci/Fi network. I don't know if low ratings was the reason for cancellation or not but I agree that story-wise it's hard to imagine that story being told past a fourth season. I do know however the actors and producers are upset the show is getting canceled. (John A.)

Thanks, John. I'd read that the show was originally intended to last four seasons, I had not heard that it was cancelled for ratings. (I can't imagine this story going on for years or years, no matter how great the ratings.)

I do have much to say about the interesting issues you raised but I'm going to send it in a private RoR mail, as I don't want to get into anymore spoiler talk on this thread in case anyone wants to try to watch the show from the beginning.

:-)

Erica

(Edited to add this:)

Actually, I will address two points you raised. (These are minor storylines, so I don't think it will ruin much if I continue discussing them, and I think these points needs to be made regarding these topics in general, not just on a tv show.)

Re: Kara and Lee's infidelity:

I don't agree that the "infidelity" is the problem, John, but that their respective sham marriages are. The affair is not just some hedonistic fling...I can understand why two people who have been in love with each other for years finally gave in and consummated their relationship...I cannot understand why the hell they married people they don't really love in the first place (knowing how they felt about each other beforehand!) Dualla and Sam don't deserve "fidelity"; they deserve to be set free so they can be paired with people who love them. Kara and Lee's immorality lies not in their relationship, but in the lying to their spouses...and I mean from the first day of their marriages, as well.
(Or have I misread you...is this the same point you meant?)

Re: The Pro-Labor Union episode:

My kneejerk reaction was similar, at the very first, but then I saw that the writers took special care to remind the audience that the miners were NOT being "exploited" by some awful big business...they were being forced to work in deplorable, dangerous conditions with no time off, and given no choice in assignments or choice for their children's futures...under orders of their GOVERNMENT. They were threatened with imprisonment if they didn't work! (And yes, it's a time of war for the Colonials...so this was basically a non-military draft.) The miners went on strike against the government because they were basically slaves, and had no control over their lives in what is supposed to be a free democracy much like our own.
Let's just say that I was able to forgive the Marxist rhetoric just this once.

:-)

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 9/13, 10:27am)

Post 22

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 12:30pm

Now you've gone and done it Erica. I must now unleash my unholy wrath of nerdiness on the poor innocent souls of this internet forum! :)

Trust me, if you ever want to talk about anything sci-fi geek related stuff, I'm the nerd to talk to.

Now, onto your excellent points about the minor plot threads of BSG this season. I will discuss the more important story-arc stuff in a PM:

Kara and Lee's infidelity

I don't agree that the "infidelity" is the problem, John, but that their respective sham marriages are. The affair is not just some hedonistic fling...I can understand why two people who have been in love with each other for years finally gave in and consummated their relationship...I cannot understand why the hell they married people they don't really love in the first place (knowing how they felt about each other beforehand!) Dualla and Sam don't deserve "fidelity"; they deserve to be set free so they can be paired with people who love them. Kara and Lee's immorality lies not in their relationship, but in the lying to their spouses...and I mean from the first day of their marriages, as well.
(Or have I misread you...is this the same point you meant?)

Ok you bring up a good point. What put me off the most was Apollo and Kara lying to their spouses about the relationship and that they used each other's spouse as an emotional crutch for their confusion for each other's love. For instance when Apollo and Kara made love on New Caprica, and Apollo upon learning the next day Kara had married (or engaged to be married?) Sam (which itself was repulsive and you're right that is what bothered me the most) then immediately that piece of shit Apollo goes and kisses Dualla as if he is getting his revenge in response to Kara's betrayal of him, really really made me not like Apollo. I already disliked Kara before that but that was the last straw for me. I was thinking these assholes deserve to die from a toaster attack.

You are correct in your assessment that Apollo and Kara were in sham marriages but before I saw Apollo act like a shithead, I honestly thought he didn't deserve to be with Kara, the emotional wreck that she was.

Pro Labor Union Episode

My kneejerk reaction was similar, at the very first, but then I saw that the writers took special care to remind the audience that the miners were NOT being "exploited" by some awful big business...they were being forced to work in deplorable, dangerous conditions with no time off, and given no choice in assignments or choice for their children's futures...under orders of their GOVERNMENT. They were threatened with imprisonment if they didn't work! (And yes, it's a time of war for the Colonials...so this was basically a non-military draft.) The miners went on strike against the government because they were basically slaves, and had no control over their lives in what is supposed to be a free democracy much like our own.
Let's just say that I was able to forgive the Marxist rhetoric just this once.

:-)

Ugh, this episode. Well besides my gripe that it was a superfluous distraction from the real important story-arc plot-line, you are correct that in this context they at least seemed to have been forced by the government to work. I guess I didn't consider that they were forced by the government but more forced by the situation they were put in (not continuing to work to keep the fleet moving would essentially mean the destruction of the human race, kind of a difficult moral situation to find oneself in) So in that sense I was more sympathetic to President Roslin. Yes their work conditions were bad, yes they had long hours and no time off, but for crying out loud all of humanity is being chased by genocidal maniac robots across the galaxy! I think our normal standards for what is moral has to change given that kind of extraordinary situation. Not to mention they complained the Viper pilots were given special treatment and had time off. Of course they never bothered to mention the incredibly short life span of a Viper pilot given the constant Cylon attacks. I mean of course Viper pilots should be given special treatment because they had special skills were in short supply and faced the risk of death on an almost daily basis. It seemed like more a theme of egalitarianism to me more than anything else.

Post 23

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 12:30pm

Well, so much for waiting for BSG-S3 on DVD. Kara died, huh? Thanx.
'Infidelity': interesting issue to moralize about in a species-lethal ongoing crisis for those 'on the front lines'. Strictly speaking, I find the subject trivial if deception hasn't been involved. Of course, there is the unmentioned, but necessary, question implied as to just exactly what 'marriage' even means psychologically, nm socially and formally, now as well as then. Does it inherently auto-imply sexual-fidelity without such being specified in the vows? Ah-h, I digress...BSG has brought up explicitly as well as implicitly many varied issues; that's what makes it so interesting, regardless the 'choices' some make.
LLAP
J:D

Post 24

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 12:31pm

John I did write SPOILER ALERT!!! Why did you read it?

Post 25

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 12:37pm

Haven't seen 4400 or HEROES, can't comment on those. Other than HOUSE, re the rest (24, BSG, B5, most of FARSCAPE, etc) one has to be 'confused' if one doesn't catch the shows in sequence. No episode shows really much of the main story arc; the whole season is necessary. They're like coming into any movie a 1/2-hr (or more) after it started.

Ntl, my tops is (not counting defunct series) HOUSE, 24, LOST, PRISON BREAK, and BSG in that order (and only on DVD). Then there's S-AAB, ST-TNG, FIREFLY, B-5 (up to 2nd season)...and a few real oldies.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 9/13, 3:27pm)

Post 26

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 12:41pm

John:

     Because your posts are so fascinating!

     Besides, I'm addicted to 'spoilers'. I already know 'the ending' to BioShock from the guide though I've yet to play the game.

     Ironically, I love the Harry Potter movies, but don't find the books interesting at all. Tried reading my kid's 1st, and, no thank you. Yet, a guy I know at a vid-store finished the ending book, and I told him "DON'T TELL ME! I'LL WAIT FOR THE 2008 MOVIE. HUSH!!"

     Go figure.

:)
LLAP
J:D

Post 27

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 2:46pm

Tidbits: Conscription, Numb3rs, SAAB

Scott, could you give a short synopsis of Numb3rs and why you like it? I have to say that I have merely heard of this show and otherwise know nothing.

John, what is SAAB, other than a vehicle manufacturer?

As for The Miner Episode on B*G, a short comment on Britain during WWI may be relevant.

The concept of conscription during wartime is not necessarily limited to military service. When the British entered WWI one the French side, they sent their professional volunteer army, the Expeditionary Force directly to the Western Front, taking up position on the northern part of the line in Belgium. There were only 100,000 troops in the entire army at that time. The use of machine guns and heavy artillery came of age during that war. The availability of artillery was often a limiting factor in battles. And the British had an initial strategy of bombarding the Germans with all they had. There were two flaws. First, the entrenched Germans were too well defended for such heavy bombardments to have much success. Second, the strategy of heavy bombardment followed by a charge by the troops meant that the troops were advancing over what had been flat ground but what was now chewed upo soil as difficult to walk on as dry beach sand. And if the troops needed artillery support, the shells may have already been used up.

After a few disastrous defeats at the hands of the Germans the Military brass blamed the losses not on strategy but on the lack of shells. Even though shell production was at record levels, very efficient, and had been praised even by opposition MP's such as Lloyd George. The Asquith government then put shell production under military control under Lloyd George's supervision. The workers were put under military orders, and striking was then outlawed. Most of the combatant coutries ended up using conscript labor to produce artillery, with disastrous results for quality, even though most industry leaders initially opposed the use of conscripts as counter productive. Austria ended up losing as many gun crews in one year due to poorly made shells that detonated prematurely as they did to enemy attack - in effect, a 50% casualty rate due to "friendly fire." Nearly half of all French shells so manufactured were duds, and the British artillery was of a similar quality.

The use of conscripts during wartime for industrial purposes is a mistake that mankind has made over and over and over.

I would recommend Meyer's history as a readable narrative account of the war and Hew Strachan's First World War as an excellent analytical work on the subject. Strachan's book has been adapted to a 10-part miniseries available on DVD and running on the Military Channel. This series is one of the best documentaries I have ever seen, I would rank it above Ken Burn's works in value.

Ted Keer

Post 28

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 3:36pm

Ted:

     HA! LOL! 'A vehicle manufacturer' :) I don't know why I didn't notice that. Funny.
     Actually, if you quoted correctly, it was S-AAB (strictly speaking, should have made it S:AAB, but, the dash/colon was relevent.)
     I meant...SPACE: ABOVE AND BEYOND which defuncted like FIREFLY (and probably for the same reasons: suits with turf-battles over program locations for ratings re other programs resulting in non-standard times for these programs.) Series-wise, it had 'closure' (the writers saw the handwriting in the sky) and was just as thought-provoking as BSG and FIREFLY...if not (call me biased) more so.

LLAP
J:D

Post 29

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 5:54pm

Wow, you guys....!

Gigi -

I totally forgot about Deadwood, which I adore (my husband and I just call it "The C*ck Su*ker show" *snort*). I don't have HBO, but wait all friggen year for the DVD's to come out at Blockbuster.
I'll be renting three and four of last season this weekend, if they're available!

Post 30

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 6:26pm

Theresa, LOL..Own em all. It's hilarious, an American classic : D

Post 31

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 6:34pm

SALVTEMVS DRAMATEM ROMAM

I omitted pay channel programs since not all people can be presumed to have HBO or the like. But if I had, "Rome" would be at the top of my list of shows now running and I would have praised some of the better episodes of "Six Feet Under" which hit its peak and then died after the second season. Speaking of bad storyline endings, I'm part of the class action suit suing HBO and David Chase for fraud over that abortion, "The Sopranos."

Ted Keer

Post 32

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:13pm

SYLVANUS POPULUSQUE ROMANUS
Caught the 1st-S of ROME (DVD, of course.) Yes, it was interesting, but...something about it lacked (not the actors); can't put my finger on it.
Never caught (er, got caught up in) THE SOPRANOS (thank The Don.) Ok: a lotta hoo-horaw over the 'ending' (er, 'stopping'?) but, a reviewer gave an interesting perspective on that. In effect, their lives (well, at least some) went on, for good or ill, and there really wasn't anything to 'end' all with other than that. Maybe fans should have seen this as a possibility; like, no 'closure' in that world...other than death...ya know?
LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 9/13, 7:13pm)

Post 33

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:27pm

"The Forest-Dweller and People of Rome?"

What, John, are you talking about? (If you need Latin lessons, don't trust Letendre. Send me a money order for $80 for a one hour lesson, email me to get my POB address. I also offer lessons on aesthetic posting layout. Headlines should never touch the margin.)

And I have a hit out on Chase and that critic. You want I should add ya to da list?

Ted

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/13, 7:32pm)

Post 34

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:36pm

I do plan on seeing DEADWOOD (it's on DVD, I know.) However, ever since Nolte's and Murphy's 48 HOURS which my wife and I brought our 14yr-old (in '82) to see, she's had a prob with movies that have chronic "f***'s in it, and, from what I've read, this series has mucho.

O-t-other-h, if there were enough females akin to PAINKILLER JANE or BAD GIRLS, she just might tolerate such. Are there?

LLAP
J:D

Post 35

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 7:47pm

Teddy, ba-by, b-a-b-y...
   No need fer us ta get all worked up, ya know wad I mean? Just throwin' back some ol' high school Latino...er...Latinish, buddy. So, 'k, meesa don't remember it good enough fer you classy types; no need fer umbrances like horse-heads er anyting like dat. My compadre, 4-fingers Vinny tol' me I shoulds be careful wid youse. Heh; guess he was right (well, now he's 'Lefty', but...that's another story).
   Hey, I got an offer, now b'lieve me 'bout dis, ya really don' wanna refuse (giggle, snicker...cough): check out SPACE: ABOVE AND BEYOND.
   So, re this Latina (whatever) thing: can we just, ya know, fahgedaboudit?

LLAP
J:D

Post 36

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 8:02pm

Actually, I think I may have heard about S:A&B, but never saw it and don't recall anything other than the name. Can you provide any links, images or YouTube clips to make your point?

Salut-e-mus Dramat-em Rom-am
Salute-may-we [the] Drama-dir.obj. [called/of/that is] Rome-dir.obj.

Sylv-anus Populus-que Romanus
Forest-dweller People-and Rome-dweller/Roman

In spiritu amicitatis,

Deodatus Carus

Post 37

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 3:44pm

Ted:

I think YouTube clips really would only be for fans; they wouldn't illustrate the worth I'm talking about.

However, Googling S:A&B shows a couple good 'background' summaries:

http://dvddonkey.com/movie/sci-fi/Space_Above_and_Beyond.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space:_Above_and_Beyond

LLAP
J:D

Post 38

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 3:54pm

Ah, at that time I was living in the last neighbourhood in the Bronx not yet wired for cable. They knocked on my door offering cable Aug '96 and I moved in September.

Post 39

Friday, September 14, 2007 - 5:02pm