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Post 20

Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Steve: "with arguments that fall far below what I'd expect of you."

Oh, please. Instead of wasting your time proving how my "attack" on Dawkins is "personal," why don't you provide some proof that his notion of the gene as unit of selection is scientifically useful? Can you show some new equations or productive models that have resulted from his work? And I don't just mean restatements of his theory, I mean applications of it which take us beyond what has already been known since the Neo-Darwinian synthesis. Don't change the issue to my supposed meanness toward Dawkins when his theory is so flawed as to be unable to explain something as basic as sickle cell anemia.

To put the criticism of Dawkins as briefly as possible, his theory of genic selectionism and his theory of memes are fallacious reifications. What, exactly, does stealing the concept mean if not the assertion that the parts of an entity are real while the entity itself is an illusion? To assert that individual minds are illusions, while memes are real is rebranded Platonism. Frankly, it's laughable to think that I should have to explain why, on an Objectivist forum, there is a problem with treating abstractions as concretes and entities as illusions.

The only thing personal here is your resentment of my criticism of one of your heroes. I haven't said you can't enjoy reading him. I have read every one of his books. I didn't say that he doesn't have value as, for example, a blaster of certain fallacies such as the notion of evolution "for the good of the species." Dawkins is what he is, an enjoyable writer both with some skill and with some terribly muddled ideas. There is no need to write your version of The Passion of Richard Dawkins' Critics to prove him conceived without sin.

The issue isn't me, Steve, or your opinion of my arguments. The issue is Dawkins and his ideas, and I'll thank you to keep it there.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 10/31, 12:52pm)


Post 21

Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, you push aside Dawkin's theory of genic selection because it "creates no new models, no new equations, makes no testable predictions which differ from existing theories." Truth isn't measured by utility. And utility has a much broader base than just experiments to prove or disprove a theory. There is great intellectual utility in examining different ways of viewing a complex subject. And some views are closer to the truth than others. All of these arguments from utility are shallow don't address the truth of the concept.

The gene-centered view of biological evolution is itself a model - standing in opposition to other models. And, certainly, if it has any meaning to say, "X is the unit of selection," then those arguments would apply to whatever X stands for. You have launched attacks against one model that could also be used against any of the alternatives.

People reading your posts have come away suspecting that your objections have more to do with Dawkins, than the selfish-gene theory. I'm not the only person that noticed this aspect of your attack. You have some people you like despite their flaws, and you have some people that you hate despite their values. I value Hitchens for his fine mind despite the fact that I frequently disagree with him, despite his support for Obama, despite his colorful past as a Communist. I see you do this same rational approach with others, but not with Dawkins. And when you get like this, you make personal attacks on me or anyone else that points out how weak and strange your arguments become.

As an aside, in an earlier post you quote Jared Diamond and E. O. Wilson to establish Ernst Mayr's credentials (which in itself was a strange, convoluted argument from authority kind of thing). I would not have chosen either of them - given their epistemological/ethical/political positions. You are aware, aren't you, that Wilson believes the gene is the unit of selection - although he also believes in a multilevel form of selection that includes group selection? Diamond's blatant environmental determinism makes it hard for me to muster up much respect for him.
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"The essence of the genetical theory of natural selection is a statistical bias in the relative rates of survival of alternatives (genes, individuals, etc.). The effectiveness of such bias in producing adaptation is contingent on the maintenance of certain quantitative relationships among the operative factors. One necessary condition is that the selected entity must have a high degree of permanence and a low rate of endogenous change, relative to the degree of bias (differences in selection coefficients)." (Williams, 1966, p.22-23 - from Wikipedia)

Notice that a superficial reading of Williams' remark could support either the individual or the genes as the unit of selection. But since evolution must work over time, a period of time that exceeds the life of the individual, it has to become either the phenotypic trait or the genes responsible for that trait that is the unit of selection. A theory where a free-floating phenotypic trait is driving evolution with no reference to the cause of the trait would NOT seem like an intelligent model - not to me.

And as Williams argued, "The natural selection of phenotypes cannot in itself produce cumulative change, because phenotypes are extremely temporary manifestations." (Williams, 1966 - from Wikipedia)

Traits are not all genetic - some are learned or acquired outside of genetics and will not be transmitted to future generations and can not, therefore, be considered units of selection for evolution - no matter how they might select that individual for his individual success.
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It is not a single gene that is selected for, it is a gene-set (nor is it the entire genotype) - the genetic material that produces the trait in question. The trait that ends up shifting the balance in the relative rates of reproduction. You could say that the unit of selection is the trait, but it is the particular 'team of genes' responsible for the trait that cause it to be reproduced (developed traits don't count unless you are a Lamarkian :-). The phenotype can not be the unit of selection, because, as it has been pointed out, the individual isn't around long enough to shift the balance.

"Genes do not present themselves naked to the scrutiny of natural selection, instead they present their phenotypic effects. (...) Differences in genes give rise to difference in these phenotypic differences. Natural selection acts on the phenotypic differences and thereby on genes. Thus genes come to be represented in successive generations in proportion to the selective value of their phenotypic effects.” —Cronin, 1991, p.60 (from Wikipedia)
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"A gene can have multiple phenotypic effects, each of which may be of positive, negative or neutral value. It is the net selective value of a gene's phenotypic effect that determines the fate of the gene" (Cronin, 1991). "For instance, a gene can cause its bearer to have greater reproductive success at a young age, but also cause a greater likelihood of death at a later age. If the benefit outweighs the harm, averaged out over the individuals and environments in which the gene happens to occur, then phenotypes containing the gene will generally be positively selected and thus the abundance of that gene in the population will increase." Wikipedia


I'm aware of the complex relation between genes and phenotype and environment (including the extraordinary complexity introduced by embryology). But when you attempt to point at the individual as the unit of selection, it is like ignoring the existence of the genes which would raise the question of what gets passed forward to give any continutity to evolution.

Selection occurs at many levels. There is a chemical environment that is an agent of selection for molecular activity, there is the mechanism of embryology and the environment it works in that selects where alternatives exist at that level, the genes effect each others expression, the external environment selects against the individual traits - which can be said to be against the individual as a whole. But in the end it is the phenotypic differences that translate into differential rates of successful reproduction that are selected for - but only as a team of genes responsible for that trait, otherwise we could not explain why acquired traits don't count in the world of evolution.
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Dawkins, and others have asked, "If it makes sense to say that the adaptation is 'for the good of something,' then what is that something that is benefited?" There were those who proposed going to the chemical level and discussed molecular level and talked about units of recombination. Dawkins proposed the term "optimon" to be the unit of natural selection - that which could be said to be the beneficiary of adaptation. Independently, in a personal communication with Dawkins, E. Mayr coined the term "selecton" to serve the same purpose.

"In the rest of this chapter ['Action at a Distance', The Extended Phenotype], I hope to show that the version of 'genetic selectionism' that can be attacked as naively atomistic, and reductionistic is a straw man; that it is not the view that I am advocating; and that if genes are correctly understood as being selected for their capacity to cooperate with each other in the gene-pool, we arrive at a theory of genetic selection which Wright and Mayr will recognize as fully compatible with their own views." pg. 239. Dawkins goes on to quote Mayr and show the similarities in thought.
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“The idea that a few people have about the gene being the target of selection is completely impractical; a gene is never visible to natural selection, and in the genotype, it is always in the context with other genes, and the interaction with those other genes make a particular gene either more favorable or less favorable. In fact, Dobzhanksy, for instance, worked quite a bit on so-called lethal chromosomes which are highly successful in one combination, and lethal in another. Therefore people like Dawkins in England who still think the gene is the target of selection are evidently wrong. E. Mayr, from Wikipedia

Here are the problems with that paragraph:
- Dawkins has never spoken of the gene that narrowly - he has always spoken of the genetic material responsible for a phenotypical trait and always in the context of other genes.
- The statement that the gene is never visible to natural selection is false in the sense that the phenotypic trait is what is selected for (against it's alleles) and it is the product of the genes - it is the genes that are selected for - otherwise learned traits could be 'selected' for.
- Again, Dawkins always speaks of the genes in the context of the genome.

I don't see how anyone can say the individual is the target of selection when we are speaking of evolution. The individual dies. Does it end there? No, evolution needs so much longer than the lifespan of the individual, and it goes on because the trait or traits that made that individual more successful in ways that effect replication are passed on by gene-set - they are the target of selection, by way of the trait, by way of the individual, within the wider context of the environment.

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"If the individual were the only target of selection, this would indeed be an inevitable conclusion. However, small social groups that compete with each other, such as the groups of hunter-gatherers in our human ancestry, were as groups also targets of selection. Groups, the members of which actively cooperated with each other and showed much reciprocal helpfulness, had a higher chance for survival than groups that did not benefit from such cooperation and altruism. Any genetic tendency for altruism would therefore be selected in a species consisting of social groups. In a social group, altruism may add the to fitness. The founders of religions and philosophies erected their ethical system on this basis." Interview with E. Mayr

Here Mayr veers off into group selection and becomes reductionist with his call for a genetic basis for altruism. And further, he goes on to take altruism as an assumed value, and theorize from there that founders of religions and philosophies chose altruistic ethical systems because they aided group fitness.

Post 22

Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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Each of us is entitled to all the bar stool philosophizing he likes. But where, Steve, in any of what you have quoted, is a theory brought down to the level of dealing with a concrete? The bottom line is that none of what you have presented is biology, it is theology. It has nothing to do with the hypothetico-deductive method. It does not stand up to Ockham's razor. It is floating abstraction built upon floating abstraction. The one nice thing about actual biology is that yes, it is either descriptively factual (either some fossil species did or did not exist) or it is predictive. It is indeed utilitarian in that it is a tool to deal with concrete reality.

Nothing Dawkins has written about his own special theories is connected to concrete reality. Not one specific example of some fact which his theories explain, yet which other theories cannot explain, is given anywhere in the literature. Not one.

I note that Dawkins' theories cannot explain how, if the genic selection theory is correct, why the sickle cell anemia gene (remember, it is genes that are selected for) reaches only 50% and not 100% equilibrium.

I note that Dawkins' theories cannot explain what gene was selected for at the KT event.

These and innumerable arguments like them are fatal counterexamples to the theory of genic selectionism.

If what Dawkins does is neither coherent nor predictive it is not science.

Dawkins' theses are not productive. They cannot deal with obvious counterexamples. They are not integrated into any rigorous biological framework. But they do get him gigs writing introductions to books by people like Susan Blackmore, of whose work, "Dawkins said, 'Any theory deserves to be given its best shot, and that is what Susan Blackmore has given the theory of the meme.'" (Does this not bring to mind the meme of Rand's Dr. Richard Stadler?) He hasn't written or contributed to an actual rigorous scientific paper since he was cited as a co-author on a paper on digger wasps in the seventies. But he does speculate. He does write about human chauvinism, and socialized medicine, and the rights of apes.

You may note that I took six weeks to begin to craft a response to your last defense of Dawkins. I went and reread The Selfish Gene, and read what Mayr and Gould themselves said about himself about Dawkins' theories, not what Wikipedia said Dawkins said they said about his theories. I do suggest you read Mayr if you are interested in a respected biologist's comments on the subject. And frankly, none of this is necessary if you simply want to say that Dawkins is a readable critic of religion and of group selectionism. For example, I don't find it necessary to defend, say, Ann Coulter's theories of evolution or government to admit I find reading her books and criticisms enjoyable. Millions of people, biologists included, enjoy Dawkins' books. That doesn't make his theories science, it makes him an author.

(As for Dawkin's ally Susan Blackmore, I didn't go looking for her. I came across her by coincidence in a thread on another website. I posted her as an example here because I could not think of a better example of the fallacy of reification that underlies the notions of memes and of genic selectionism. The exact same errors lie behind each.)

I don't think there's any need for me to repeat my objections when the standard counterexamples haven't been answered. I'll stand on the evidence.

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Post 23

Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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I'm happy to finish with this discussion, Ted, because I haven't found your style of reply nor your content pleasant or informative. You choose not to address the primary issue: What is the unit of selection?

You make snide and, frankly ugly, remarks like referring to my post as "bar stool philosophizing," and your statements implying that you read the original authors and spent weeks crafting a reply whereas I just paste quotes from Wikipedia, condescendingly implying that your posts are of worth and mine aren't.

You psychologize me with your accusation that I'm only writing out of resentment because you criticized of one of my heroes. What a condescending, snobbish, elite that makes you sound like.

What you write is "biology" but what I write is "theology," according to you - how kind of you to tell all of us what categories we should use.

And you have the balls to say to me, "The issue is Dawkins and his ideas, and I'll thank you to keep it there."

How strange that you are nearly the only person in the universe who thinks that what Dawkins writes is NOT science. Gould, Mayr, Maynard Smith, etc., all seem to think so... even when they disagree, they are disagreeing with a respected thinker in their field.

I find your approach to this discussion too unpleasant to continue. An open discussion of what the concepts mean could have been enjoyable - but not your mean-spirited attacks - attack Dawkins, attack me, ignore my points... anything but enjoyable! Answer whatever you want to this post - I'm done.

Post 24

Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, I'll take you at your word for the first sentence of your post, and stop reading it there.

Post 25

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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For fans of richard Dawkins, he has a new book out, The Greatest Show on Earth.

Apparently the same subject as usual. I'm surprised I hadn't heard of it. I came across it by accident on the new shelf at the library.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/13, 5:00pm)


Post 26

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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From Publishers Weekly
SignatureReviewed by Jonah LehrerRichard Dawkins begins The Greatest Show on Earth with a short history of his writing career. He explains that all of his previous books have naïvely assumed the fact of evolution, which meant that he never got around to laying out the evidence that it [evolution] is true. This shouldn't be too surprising: science is an edifice of tested assumptions, and just as physicists must assume the truth of gravity before moving on to quantum mechanics, so do biologists depend on the reality of evolution. It's the theory that makes every other theory possible.Yet Dawkins also came to realize that a disturbingly large percentage of the American and British public didn't share his enthusiasm for evolution. In fact, they actively abhorred the idea, since it seemed to contradict the Bible and diminish the role of God. So Dawkins decided to write a book for these history-deniers, in which he would dispassionately demonstrate the truth of evolution beyond sane, informed, intelligent doubt.After only a few pages of The Greatest Show on Earth, however, it becomes clear that Dawkins doesn't do dispassionate, and that he's not particularly interested in convincing believers to believe in evolution. He repeatedly compares creationists and Holocaust deniers, which is a peculiar way of reaching out to the other side. Elsewhere, Dawkins calls those who don't subscribe to evolution ignorant, fatuously ignorant and ridiculous. All of which raises the point: who, exactly, is supposed to read this book? Is Dawkins preaching to the choir or trying to convert the uninformed? While The Greatest Show on Earth might fail as a work of persuasive rhetoric—Dawkins is too angry and acerbic to convince his opponents—it succeeds as an encyclopedic summary of evolutionary biology. If Charles Darwin walked into a 21st-century bookstore and wanted to know how his theory had fared, this is the book he should pick up.Dawkins remains a superb translator of complex scientific concepts. It doesn't matter if he's spinning metaphors for the fossil record (like a spy camera in a murder trial) or deftly explaining the method by which scientists measure the genetic difference between distinct species: he has a way of making the drollest details feel like a revelation. Even if one already believes in the survival of the fittest, there is something thrilling about learning that the hoof of a horse is homologous to the fingernail of the human middle finger, or that some dinosaurs had a second brain of ganglion cells in their pelvis, which helped compensate for the tiny brain in their head. As Darwin famously noted, There is grandeur in this view of life. What Dawkins demonstrates is that this view of life isn't just grand: it's also undeniably true. Color illus. (Sept. 29)Jonah Lehrer is the author of How We Decide and Proust Was a Neuroscientist.

480 pages... came out in September...
(Edited by robert malcom on 12/13, 2:25pm)


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