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Post 80

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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There's not much there there is a famous quip by Gertrude Stein.

Concepts without referents are like animals without cells or molecules without atoms. One can isolate form epistemologically. Metaphysically it is inseparable from substance.

Post 81

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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Curtis,

This is such a huge topic (and on such a wonderful forum!) I'm glad I found it.

You wrote: Robert, in post 59 you said, "I think the issue with Kant is whether or not you believe the very first sentences of the CPR, in which he states:".........and then he explains the "filling" of the tabula rasa by means of the senses. That's very agreeable.

But why, later, did he introduce "a priori" knowledge? That is one of the mistakes he made, "not for creating the synthetic a priori, but for perceiving a need for it (to explain things). ... " as Ed wrote and you quoted.


There are many websites out there explaining how Kant brought together or synthesized rationalism and empiricism. The synthetic a priori is part of that solution, and it is particularly useful in explaining where Hume went wrong in his critique of causality.

Hume held to a similar distinction in propositions, it has survived in the form of logical positivism which Rand and Peikoff criticized. It was simply necessary for Hume to see the error of his ways using this handy list of the possible forms of judgment:

analytic a priori
synthetic a priori
analytic a posteriori
synthetic a posteriori

Since a posteriori judgments are always synthetic, that eliminates the possibility of analytic a posteriori judgments. So that leaves us with:

analytic a priori
synthetic a priori
synthetic a posteriori

Now if Hume, lacking such a handy chart, miscategorized causal relationships as synthetic a posteriori, which are always contingent, it is only because he failed to conceptualize the possibility of synthetic a priori judgments which are always necessary yet always relate to experience.

And that is exactly the solution to the problem of causality set forth by David Hume.


(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/08, 2:43pm)


Post 82

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:

Concepts without referents are like animals without cells or molecules without atoms. One can isolate form epistemologically. Metaphysically it is inseparable from substance.

Kant has given you no concepts without referents, he has outlined the [edit: epistemic] possibility of referents, that is, content for judgments.

The Ideas have no referents in reality, but that is not a problem since they are not concepts.


(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/08, 2:45pm)


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Post 83

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism denies that there are ideas that have no referents in reality. There is no "there" there. You have to apply the method from Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation.

Post 84

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote:  Objectivism denies that there are ideas that have no referents in reality. There is no "there" there. You have to apply the method from Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation.

Then that Torah is plain wrong even from Rand's standpoint. Because people have ideas all the time that have no referents in reality. Sometimes these people then move on to create the referents - these people are called by Rand the Creators and the Producers.

(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/08, 6:38pm)


Post 85

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I almost forgot to mention this Nietzsche/Rand connection found on that site :

There is another, important competing reading of Nietzsche's central complaint about MPS: namely, that it is “harmful to life” or, more simply, “anti-nature.” Geuss, for example, says that, “There is little doubt that ‘Life’…in Nietzsche does seem to function as a criterion for evaluating moralities”


Post 86

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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MPS?

Nietzsche's notion of life is as a force, the will to power. Rand's concept of life is an half platonic half biological notion of the proper existence for Man according to his definition as a rational animal. Their notions are of entirely different concepts. I have my problems with Rand's Platonic view of man's nature, you'd have to google RoR with the key words "man specific nature" and perhaps sociopath and homosexual to find the appropriate threads. Here, read this thread.

Corrected

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/08, 8:43pm)


Post 87

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Sorry, I didn't think I would have to explain MPS so soon again because it was just explained 4 posts ago. MPS stands for Nietzsche's Morality in the Pejorative Sense.

Your link didn't work correctly.

Edit: Funny, I myself argued for a Randian platonic view of human nature a few years ago. I no longer remember the details of it.
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/08, 8:35pm)


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Post 88

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Ted said:
************************
Objectivism denies that there are ideas that have no referents in reality. There is no "there" there. You have to apply the method from Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation.
************************

To which you said:
************************
Then that Torah is plain wrong even from Rand's standpoint. Because people have ideas all the time that have no referents in reality. Sometimes these people then move on to create the referents - these people are called by Rand the Creators and the Producers.
************************

But Ted was being imprecise with his language (which, trust me, is out of character for Ted). Sometimes folks equate the word: "ideas" with the word: "concepts" -- and, in that sense, Ted would be completely correct. There are no concepts without referents.

However, sometimes folks equate "ideas" with "anything floating in your head at any time." This other way to think about ideas includes imaginations and such -- such as the imaginations of creative artists and other value producers. Ted wasn't completely clear, but that doesn't leave you off of the hook either.

You are being like Kant.

You are taking something that is not completely clear, treating it as if it is, and then passing judgment on Ted (and on Rand) for it. The name for this kind of argumentation is:

The Straw Man Fallacy

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/08, 8:35pm)


Post 89

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I'm not sure you completely followed that mini-thread in the conversation. Ted had already covered the idea of concepts having referents in his previous post. He then came back with the rejoinder that ideas also have referents.

So I don't see where the distinction wasn't clear in his mind since he himself implied it within those two posts. And therefore I don't see him being uncharacteristically unclear either.

Post 90

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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I was not being imprecise with my use of the word idea. I simply assumed others knew what I meant by it, a more or less complex mental object at least partially conceptually grasped.

Robert, here is the link: for the thread you should read. http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/NewsDiscussions/2645.shtml

Post 91

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote: Nietzsche's notion of life is as a force, the will to power. Rand's concept of life is an half platonic half biological notion of the proper existence for Man according to his definition as a rational animal.

There will always be differences. Nietzsche referred to human instincts, Rand detracted from the idea of human instincts. And yet at an earlier point in her life Rand believed in the existence of human instinct:

It may be considered strange, and denying my own supremacy of reason, that I start with a set of ideas, then want to study in order to support them, and not vice versa, i.e., not study and derive my ideas from that. But these ideas, to a great extent, are the result of a subconscious instinct, which is a form of unrealized reason. All instincts are reason, essentially, or reason is instincts made conscious. The "unreasonable" instincts are diseased ones. This—for the study of psychology. For the base of the reconciliation of reason and emotions.
(Rand's First Philosophic Journal, May 15 1934 entry.)

Her Fountainhead notes contain many references to "instinct" that are not considered in any pejorative fashion.

However, after a time, even the dedication to Friedrich Nietzsche was removed from that work, and Rand began moving away from such terms as "instinct" which are common with Nietzscheanism. Eventually, she came to declare that instincts don't exist in humans.

But the Nietzschean "instinct" or will to power lives on in her Übermenschen heroes and heroines, even if it is just the power of self-determination and autonomy (individualism) versus the desire to gain power by ruling over others.





Post 92

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

*******************
Kant understood the problem Hume set forth and then set down his solution. If he 'failed' it was only in the sense that Hume asked for a simple answer.
*******************

You're saying that Hume asked, in vain, for a simple answer. Hume didn't find one, and hence philosophy was left with the analytic-synthetic dichotomy. Then Kant formulated an "answer" to Hume, implicitly accepting the tension created by a dichotomy, and then transcending it. Let me attempt a rundown of that:

*******************
1) Hume wanted a simple answer
2) Kant -- instead of giving a simple answer (because he accepted Hume's premises and therefore felt that there was none) -- fabricated an elaborate system wherein there is this postulated, esoteric (transcendental) objectivity floating in a sea of human subjectivity
3) Kant shouldn't be blamed for that (and the trouble it caused) because he "meant well"
4) Instead, Hume should be blamed for being so obstinate in the first place
*******************

Is that what you are saying?

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/08, 9:28pm)


Post 93

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

How much of the thread do I have to read? I agree with your point there that premises can't explain everything human. Your use of Rand's theory of romantic love, however, is like beating a dead horse.

Post 94

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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In her mature thought she would call what you quoted as her instict her "sense of life."

I suggest you read the thread I suggested.

Post 95

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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Just the good parts.

Post 96

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Where you wrote: You're saying that Hume asked, in vain, for a simple answer. Hume didn't find one, and hence philosophy was left with the analytic-synthetic dichotomy. Then Kant formulated an "answer" to Hume, implicitly accepting the tension created by a dichotomy, and then transcending it.

I would have to say that "transcending" the tension created by a dichotomy would definitely - even absolutely - be a tactic employed by Fichte and not Kant. That tactic is called "dialectics," and the third part of the CPR was devoted to opposing such methods.

The rest of your post is a funny caricature of what I wrote, or at any rate I will take it in a humorous light.

Post 97

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 9:58pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

At that thread was a relevant quote from TOS: The fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do.

Or as Nietzsche would have it, the fact that a living entity is, determines what it wants to do.

This want is then elevated to a Randian ought which puts it in a form that is morally legislatable to others.

But I think, more importantly, this want is a Randian want. This want is rationalized as an ought, and then legislated to whomever gravitated toward her, forming a circle of admirers who wanted whatever Rand wanted.

Post 98

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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Jeezus, Robert, do you ever interpret Rand in a negative light!

It's like a forgone conclusion or something. You are calling Rand a whim-worshipper.

Wow.

Ed


Post 99

Friday, January 8, 2010 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

There's a bazillion discussions going on in this thread and it's driving me a little bit insane (some would say that I was already there, and that it was only an "appearance" on my part of being driven anywhere).

Anyway, this is my answer to your post 96:

I would have to say that "transcending" the tension created by a dichotomy would definitely - even absolutely - be a tactic employed by Fichte and not Kant. That tactic is called "dialectics," and the third part of the CPR was devoted to opposing such methods.
That's just because Kant was inconsistent (as Ted said). Kant should still be thought of as a terrible thinker, and as a key component in the modern fall of philosophy away from Aristotelianism (i.e., away from truth, reason, reality, and objective values). Fichte, Hegel, Marx, and Lenin merely showed the end-product of Kant's thinking. Kant wouldn't have necessarily "wanted" to justify the Iron Curtain and the Third Reich, but that's where his thinking ultimately led. And, for that, he should be blamed. Here is a relevant snippet from page 33 of Peikoff's book: The Ominous Parellels (of which Rand approved):

Taking their cue from their needs, men can properly believe (for instance, in God and in an afterlife), even though they cannot prove the truth of their beliefs. And no matter how powerful the rational argument against their faith, that argument can always be dismissed out-of-hand: one need merely remind its advocate that rational knowledge and rational concepts are applicable only to the world of appearances, not to reality.

In a word, reason having been silenced, the way is cleared once more for an orgy of mystic fantasy. (The name of this orgy, the philosophic term for the nineteenth-century intellectuals' revolt against reason and the Enlightenment, is: romanticism.) "I have," writes Kant, "therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to make room for faith."[4]

Kant also found it necessary to deny happiness, in order to make room for duty. The essence of moral virtue, he says, is selflessness--selfless, lifelong obedience to duty, without any expectation of reward, and regardless of how much it might make one suffer.

Kant's attack on reason, this world, and man's happiness was the decisive turning point. As the main line of modern philosophy rapidly absorbed his basic tenets, the last elements of the Aristotelian approach were abandoned, particularly in Germany. Philosophers turned as a group to variants of Platonism, this time an extreme, militant Platonism, a Platonism shorn of its last vestiges of respect for reason.

It is Kant who made possible the sudden mushrooming of the Platonic collectivism in the modern world, and especially in Germany. Kant is not a full-fledged statist, but a philosopher's political views, to the extent that they contradict the essentials of his system, have little historical significance. Kant accepts certain elements of individualism, not because of his basic approach, but in spite of it, as a legacy of the Enlightenment period in which he lived. This merely suggests that Kant did not grasp the political implications of his own metaphysics and epistemology.

His heirs, however, did.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/08, 10:41pm)


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