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Post 120

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
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Holy God!

Okay, maybe that phrase isn't appropriate but the spirit is correct. What is wrong with you people? I go to read the comments on this article and the first one is relevant (Thank you Barbara Branden). The next one is not. None of them are. I skip to page 5-- page 5! and it still doesn't make sense. Insult after insult! Maybe one of you will take time out of your cat fight to explain all this mudslinging. Is there a rational explanation?

Okay, well here's what I intended to post about the article:

Thank you Mr. Cordero! One of my good friends is exactly the type you describe: constantly haranguing about how the Christians are taking over the country and we are all going to hell in a handbasket. Jeez. Why waste time being a pessimistic stick in the mud! If you don't like irrational people don't spend all your time complaining about it--live rationally! I admit I have been guilty (shamefully) of some of the things you describe, though not lately as far as I can tell. But your article provoked that self-introspection which I extremely enjoy!

Thank you!!
Meg

(Edited by Meg Townsend on 12/03, 8:14am)


Post 121

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 12:05amSanction this postReply
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My edit didn't work. I meant to eat my earlier words, because I was actually looking at page 1 instead of page 0. Thank you to those on page 0! Ed Thompson, I especially enjoyed your post, you have a tremendously dramatic style of writing that is incredibly fun to read.

Meg


Post 122

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Next writes:
>Dan, I was very wrong about the problems with Aristotleian essentialism being well known.

Yes, I'm suprised myself. But there you go. I think it's principally because of Aristotle's immense influence on philosophy, many of his mistaken assumptions have become the basis for the mistaken assumptions of later philosophies. (Look how many centuries it took to drive his assumption about the heavenly nature of circles out of astronomy!)

See, here's the intriguing question to me:

If Regi's obviously hopeless philosophical method is "very ortho-Objectivist", and is entirely contrary to the "true" Objectivism apparently practiced by a minority - then how on earth did the fallacious version come to be the *common practice* in the first place?

There seem to be a few possibilities:
1) The real Objectivism has been corrupted by human error
2) The real Objectivism has been corrupted by deliberate intention
3) Both
4) Or perhaps, as I suggest, there are actually serious problems in Objectivism's basic method, caused by errors in the assumptions it inherited from Aristotle. Thus, there is a hard-to-spot yet inexorable tendency towards Regi-like argumentation - so inexorable that this wacky style of thinking has come to be considered the orthodox practice in the movement!

It seems to me Rand's respect for Aristotle's achievements has caused her, and her followers, to completely overlook these problems, or refuse to accept that they exist. (Much the same can be said for many Plato influenced philosophers who became hypnotised by his genius to the point they seemed to not notice his nasty political tendencies). Judging by the responses I've had not many seem to be even aware there *are* major problems with Aristotle's method. They've been told it is the answer to the vacuous modern philosophy thinking, and have accepted this uncritically. Which is doubly unfortunate, as many of the errors of postmodernism too can quite clearly be traced back to the errors of Aristotle!

The fabulous Ms Ring writes:
>Otherwise, Msr. Barnes.  I don't recall Popper's discussion of Aristotle, but you greatly intrigue me with it.

The problems with Aristotle's method are roughly as follows:

1) The regressive nature of definitions, which he didn't notice (this is just like the infinite regression of statements, which he *did* notice, and which lead him to propose his axioms). In the hands of a wily opponent, arguments are diverted into endless preliminary debates over definitions, and thus never even get started. Popper perfectly describes this as "endlessly sharpening your pencil, and never writing anything".

2) The problem of identifying the true "essence" of a thing. This quickly leads to a stalemate, as you may say that a young dog a "puppy", but I may say a vain young man is a "puppy"! (you'll note both refer to facts of reality) This is a trivial example, but the problem of which is the "true" one is clear enough, and only gets worse when you start talking about "true democracy" for example. This problem drove Aristotle to propose his doctrine of intellectual intuition to identify the essences, which Rand rightly criticises but actually did not propose a clear alternative to. As a result, many Objectivists use the self fulfilling definitions that Alec rightly criticises Regi for. But this is not a good solution either, obviously!

3) The problems of the vagueness of language complicate and overlay the former two, as words, being rich in content, can in no way match the precision of, say, numbers (which are empty of content by comparison)

Because of the above problems, among others, Popper proposes we should replace Aristotle's methodological essentialism with methodological *nominalism* ie: phrase our arguments so they depend as little as possible on the meanings of words, and focus more on problems, arguments, propositions and plans. This is the way a scientist would approach it, as opposed to a philosopher. If addressing the problem of the action of wind upon a sand dune, the scientist does not first say "Ah - but what is a *true* wind, and what is a *true* sand dune?...." and thus avoids the resulting acres of blab. And that is the difference. As a result, science has progressed in leaps and bounds in the past few centuries once it escaped the Aristotelian method. Whereas philosophy entered a verbal cul de sac and lies in half submerged in a ditch.

- Daniel





Post 123

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote:
>2) The problem of identifying the true "essence" of a thing.

Just to make this as clear as possible: this methodological problem applies equally to the identifying the "essence" of a *thing* (metaphysical, Aristotle) and/or a *concept* (epistemological, Rand).

The issue is the same in either case, as far as I can see.

- Daniel

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Post 124

Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Science has progressed by leaps and bounds?

Don't tell that to ARI Objectivists, some of whom (and one of them I know often relishes the insights of Stephen Speicher) believe that science hasn't made a significant advance since the Copenhagen interpretation of QM owing to Kant's influences.

I shall attempt to mount a feeble(he he) challenge to your claims.

1) The regressive nature of definitions, which he didn't notice (this is just like the infinite regression of statements, which he *did* notice, and which lead him to propose his axioms). In the hands of a wily opponent, arguments are diverted into endless preliminary debates over definitions, and thus never even get started. Popper perfectly describes this as "endlessly sharpening your pencil, and never writing anything".

Well, definitions are meant to help us get clear what people are talking about and to identify them.  This is what Ayn Rand proposed they be used for.  A concept is meant to subsume all the concretes that are its referents.  The debate over definitions is not endless - it s simply a request to identify what the referents in reality are!

2) The problem of identifying the true "essence" of a thing. This quickly leads to a stalemate, as you may say that a young dog a "puppy", but I may say a vain young man is a "puppy"! (you'll note both refer to facts of reality) This is a trivial example, but the problem of which is the "true" one is clear enough, and only gets worse when you start talking about "true democracy" for example. This problem drove Aristotle to propose his doctrine of intellectual intuition to identify the essences, which Rand rightly criticises but actually did not propose a clear alternative to. As a result, many Objectivists use the self fulfilling definitions that Alec rightly criticises Regi for. But this is not a good solution either, obviously! 
Yes, self-fulfilling definitions can be a problem, but this wasn't what Rand wanted.  I think it was a result of her sometimes naive realism, but that is another story.

But more seriously, can't you see that getting definitions straight can aid mental clarity and conceptual clarification?  Moreover, can this doctrine be combined with empirical views and utilized successfully?

3) The problems of the vagueness of language complicate and overlay the former two, as words, being rich in content, can in no way match the precision of, say, numbers (which are empty of content by comparison)
You're overstating this "vagueness of language" point.  Don't we often know what we mean when others speak to us?  If so, then your claims about complications are overstated.  Irrationality is a far more common reason for people disagree with me than "vagueness of language."


Post 125

Sunday, December 5, 2004 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Next Level writes:
>Don't tell that to ARI Objectivists, some of whom (and one of them I know often relishes the insights of Stephen Speicher) believe that science hasn't made a significant advance since the Copenhagen interpretation of QM owing to Kant's influences.

I suspect the errors due Kant's influence are but a fraction of the errors due to Aristotle's influence. People assume Aristotle's personal enthusiasm for science means he had developed a sound philosophy of same. But he had not. Hence often his silliest, simplest dogmas lay undetected for millenia. After all, ever wondered exactly *why* he was such a favourite with the Churchmen in the first place? As Russell remarks at the end of his discussion of the Aristotelian method in "The History of Western Philosophy", throughout history science has progressed only in the face of relentless opposition of the followers of Aristotle.

Next continues:
>The debate over definitions is not endless - it s simply a request to identify what the referents in reality are!

Actually, it turns out the debate is just as impossible to logically resolve as the problem of proving all statements - and Aristotle certainly recognised that one! It's basically the same problem - Aristotle seems to have simply overlooked the fact that it applies there too.

Next
>But more seriously, can't you see that getting definitions straight can aid mental clarity and conceptual clarification? 

Uh-huh. If we don't want to completely waste our time in debate, we should try to ensure we're talking about roughly the same thing. And this, of course, is why we have generally accepted meanings for words.But this is *not* what's being claimed. What's being claimed is that without a *true* definition at the start (as opposed to a generally accepted one), *the search for truth cannot even begin*. In effect, unless one has the *true* definition of "sand dune" and the *true* definition of "wind", any attempt to study the effect of one upon the other is doomed to error in advance.

Even leaving aside the obvious problem with the above - that truth is required before the search for truth can begin - this is an absurd idea. But you'd be suprised how many people would take it seriously if we changed the terms to from "sand dune" and "wind" to, say, "democracy" and "freedom".

In passing, I suppose I'd better address this inevitable objection: that words are not "vague" because you can know what they do *not* refer to. For example, a sand dune is not a ham sandwich, nor an automobile. I would certainly agree with this, but calling this "precise" is rather like someone calling themselves a crack shot just because they managed to hit the side of a barn! After all, they *didn't* hit the tree, the bird, the ground, a passing car...;-)

>Moreover, can this doctrine be combined with empirical views and utilized successfully?

Not really. The emphasis gets shifted onto the meaning of words - ah, but what is a *true* sand dune? - and therefore any testing is postponed until that is resolved. Which could take some time, as the problem is the same as the one of proving all statements! And even then, if agreement is reached but the test does not come out as expected, it could well be because a faulty defintion...

>You're overstating this "vagueness of language" point.

But the "vagueness" of language is an important benefit! Otherwise it wouldn't be able to be used creatively, or adapt to our changing requirements. You just shouldn't *pretend* it is more precise than it is. Just like you shouldn't pretend a certain drill bit is smaller than it is when making a hole! As Popper says, we should be careful to remain within the "penumbra" of our words meanings, and make sure not too much rests upon it.

> Irrationality is a far more common reason for people disagree with me than "vagueness of language."

;-). Nice one, Next.

- Daniel



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Post 126

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 4:20amSanction this postReply
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But the "vagueness" of language is an important benefit! Otherwise it wouldn't be able to be used creatively, or adapt to our changing requirements. You just shouldn't *pretend* it is more precise than it is. Just like you shouldn't pretend a certain drill bit is smaller than it is when making a hole! As Popper says, we should be careful to remain within the "penumbra" of our words meanings, and make sure not too much rests upon it. [italics added]
This one scared me.


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Post 127

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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"But the "vagueness" of language is an important benefit!"

It's not a bug, its a feature!

Post 128

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote:
> As Popper says, we should be careful to remain within the "penumbra" of our words meanings, and make sure not too much rests upon it.

Nate wrote:
>This one scared me.

Why? Are you perhaps worried about the way some thinkers have twisted words to suit totalitarian purposes, and that what I'm suggesting will play right into their hands?

I think you'll find the situation is the exact reverse of what you think it is. In fact, totalitarian thinkers place a great deal of emphasis on the "true" meanings of words, and thus their first urge is to create a kind of "official vocabulary" from which suspect words or meanings inconvenient to the official philosophy can be "corrected" or simply erased (A good example is the Marxist de-bourgeoisification of language, from which "corrupt" words and meanings are purged in case they pollute the purity of the new society to follow...) Once they control and limit the meanings of words, they can more easily control and debate and limit criticism.

This tendency dates back to antiquity. F'rinstance, Plato asks the question "What is the true meaning of justice?" Being a master wordsmith, he plays with words to interpret justice as a kind of appropriateness; that it is just for everything to be in the right place, that it is just for the serf to be a serf, and an aristocrat to be an aristocrat, and that it is therefore unjust to treat one as if they were the other.

But his real intentions become clear when you try to formulate this nebulous philosophising into an actual *proposal*. Formulated as such, it becomes something like: "I propose aristocrats and serfs should not be equal before the law" or " For aristocrats and serfs to be treated equally before the law would be inherently unjust". Suddenly Plato's intentions behind his verbal maneuvering become very clear. Thus, moving the arguments away from merely verbal debates like "what is justice?", and putting more weight on on identifying problems, and plans or proposals for solving them, actually gives totalitarians (and twits too) far less camouflage for their respective evils and emptinesses.

For a more modern example, can you tell me what, if any, actual *action* Regi Firehammer is proposing as a result of all his anti-homosexual waffle? What problem is he trying to solve? What solution is he offering?

Buggered if I know...;-)

- Daniel





Post 129

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote:
>"But the "vagueness" of language is an important benefit!"

Robert wrote:
>It's not a bug, its a feature!

I think I've already cracked that one elsewhere..;-)

But for once, it's true.

- Daniel

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Post 130

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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F'rinstance, Plato asks the question "What is the true meaning of justice?" Being a master wordsmith, he plays with words to interpret justice as a kind of appropriateness; that it is just for everything to be in the right place, that it is just for the serf to be a serf, and an aristocrat to be an aristocrat, and that it is therefore unjust to treat one as if they were the other.


So, essentially, what you're saying is that because Plato and some other pseudophilosophers pull definitions from where the sun don't shine*, all attempts at definition amount to futile wordplay with nothing to do with actual problems or solutions?


Thus, moving the arguments away from merely verbal debates like "what is justice?", and putting more weight on on identifying problems, and plans or proposals for solving them, actually gives totalitarians (and twits too) far less camouflage for their respective evils and emptinesses.


And isn't this exactly why we have people talking about things like “right to education” and “right to marriage” and “right to work”? The fact that most people have no idea what rights are—i.e., haven't defined rights?

At the risk of sounding Clintonian, doesn't all this depend on what the definition of “definition” is?




*That cave where he ties people up and makes them watch shadow puppets.

Post 131

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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Nature wrote:
>all attempts at definition amount to futile wordplay with nothing to do with actual problems or solutions?

No. All attempts at definition do *not* amount to futile wordplay. Definitions are highly useful, so long as you stick within the parameters they are useful for (ie: getting a rough agreement on meaning) and do not ask for more precision than they can in reality provide. This is where the trouble begins, and is the basic Scholastic error. As I say, one only needs a rough idea of "sand dune" and "wind" before one can propose a scientific experiment to test a theory of their interaction, and it matters not a whit if we change the terms to "sandhill" and "breeze". Questions like "what is the *true* definition of "wind?", and "what is the *true* definition of "breeze?" are irrelevant.

Unfortunately, people do not believe this is equally the case if , say, we were to substitute the terms "democracy" and "freedom" for those above. This is why, as Popper remarks, most of our social science is still in the Middle Ages.

Dictionaries are extremely useful - so long as you don't think they need to be rewritten "correctly" before the search for truth can commence! This is a fallacy.

Nature wrote:
>At the risk of sounding Clintonian, doesn't all this depend on what the definition of “definition” is?

This is just what I mean - an excellent example. Clintonian waffle is the inevitable result of the consistent application of the Aristotelian method - just as it was in the era of the Schoolmen. "Did you have sex with this woman?" "Ah, it depends what you mean by sex..." etc till you get to "it depends on what you mean by "mean" and how you define "define"?! "

And this is just this sort of nonsense one will avoid by doing what Popper proposes.


- Daniel

Post 132

Monday, December 6, 2004 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

I've been busy arguing on another thread somewhere so I don't have time to write my rebuttal to your post yet.  But I will do so.

I think that *some* level of truth is required before the search for truth can begin.  That is the proper interpretation of the Aristotleian search for definition and not the extreme one you give it.


Post 133

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 1:07amSanction this postReply
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Why? Are you perhaps worried about the way some thinkers have twisted words to suit totalitarian purposes, and that what I'm suggesting will play right into their hands?
Not here, although that is always a danger.  Our rational faculty is based upon concepts, which require words to complete their formation.  Every word stands for a concept.  To say that "you shouldn't have much depend on word meaning" means that you shouldn't have much depend upon concepts, hence you shouldn't rely too heavily on man's rational faculties.  And, as I am an Objectivist, I'm sure you can understand what I think of that.

In fact, totalitarian thinkers place a great deal of emphasis on the "true" meanings of words, and thus their first urge is to create a kind of "official vocabulary" from which suspect words or meanings inconvenient to the official philosophy can be "corrected" or simply erased.
Yes, well, if you define things incorrectly, you cause all kinds of problems by not using a word to refer to the referents that it's supposed to refer to.  As Nature pointed out, this doesn't mean that a correct definition is impossible to find.


Post 134

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 1:40amSanction this postReply
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Next wrote:
>I've been busy arguing on another thread somewhere so I don't have time to write my rebuttal to your post yet.  But I will do so.

Oh, don't feel to obliged to. It's nearly Christmas, time is short!
>I think that *some* level of truth is required before the search for truth can begin. 

I would put it this way: we are always trying to move closer to the truth, by discovering and eliminating our errors. The best way to do this is to open our theories up to criticism, both by argument and experimentation. If they survive, that is the best test as to their truthfulness.

If they are to be properly criticised, then they must not be concealed in self fulfilling definitions, and must be put in a language everyone can understand, not a shoehorned into an authorised dialect of closed, convenient meanings.

I think you and I would probably agree on that, and that is probably enough.

- Daniel


Post 135

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 11:40amSanction this postReply
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Nate writes:
>To say that "you shouldn't have much depend on word meaning" means that you shouldn't have much depend upon concepts...

Well, Nate, I certainly don't think you should depend too much on concepts either. The real emphasis should be on *theories*, rather than concepts. In my view, concepts are to theories as words are to propositions - useful as far as they go ie: as rough or incomplete (or "open-ended", as the jargon goes) instruments from which to construct testable theories. This "open-endedness" of concepts means that, as with words, we obviously shouldn't try to make them more precise than they are. So it's a related problem. Putting too much weight on concepts instead of theories actually leads to much the same situation - to a style of argument which is basically question begging. I'll go into a few examples a bit later.

Nate continues:
>...hence you shouldn't rely too heavily on man's rational faculties. 

This assumes that concepts are the alpha and omega of man's rational faculties, which is simply not the case. Concepts are useful, but are only part of the picture.


- Daniel

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Post 136

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Well, Nate, I certainly don't think you should depend too much on concepts either.  The real emphasis should be on *theories*, rather than concepts.

Please, name me a theory, any theory, which does not rely upon words and concepts.  As far as "emphasis" goes, you can emphasize anything you want, but that doesn't change the fact that theories rely upon propositions, which themselves rely upon concepts.
 In my view, concepts are to theories as words are to propositions - useful as far as they go i.e.: as rough or incomplete (or "open-ended", as the jargon goes) instruments from which to construct testable theories.
This is a very nice example of why you need definitions to avoid confusion.  Open-ended and "rough or incomplete" are hardly synonymous.  Also, you may want to investigate why you make this conflation-- when exactly is a concept "complete" in your view?  Can it ever happen?

This "open-endedness" of concepts means that, as with words, we obviously shouldn't try to make them more precise than they are.
What do you mean by "more precise than they are?"  I'm afraid I don't even have a rough idea of what you're talking about.

So it's a related problem. Putting too much weight on concepts instead of theories actually leads to much the same situation - to a style of argument which is basically question begging. I'll go into a few examples a bit later.
Please do.  And I'm afraid you're going to have to define theory for me, you seem to use the word a lot.

(Edited by Nate T. on 12/08, 4:25am)


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Post 137

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Nate writes:
>Please, name me a theory, any theory, which does not rely upon words and concepts.

Just because we use words doesn't mean they are worth debating at any length. On that basis, you might equally argue that letters are the most important part of words - and so we should spend all our time discussing typefaces or handwriting style!

Nate:
>Open-ended and "rough or incomplete" are hardly synonymous.

This is of course untrue. If I was to give a client a cost estimate that I said was "open-ended" he would be rightly suspicious...;-) He would think it was a "rough" costing, or an "incomplete" one. And this would be a perfectly reasonable suspicion.

But, like I say, it's not important to argue over words, so I am more than happy to use generally agreed meanings so we can avoid these arguments. So let's just look in the dictionary under "open-ended" and I'm sure we'll find some suitable synonyms we'll agree on. Here we go (from Dictionary.com):

*"Open-ended: 1.Not restrained by definite limits, restrictions, or structure."*

Gee, doesn't get much vaguer than that! Ok, so now we can agree that as they are "open-ended", concepts are fairly described as the above? ( or, more briefly: "Inconclusive or indefinite") Or does your argument require one of those things Alec warned us about - a special definition of "open-ended" with its own convenient meaning?

If not, then ask yourself this: if concepts are "indefinite" (ie:"Not restrained by definite limits, restrictions, or structure"), can I ask why you think the *words that describe them can somehow be otherwise*?

Nate:
>Also, you may want to investigate why you make this conflation-- when exactly is a concept "complete" in your view?  Can it ever happen?

As I''ve shown above, it's hardly some obscure "conflation" on my part. It's the reality of the situation. However it's a question I'd be very interested in *your* answer to. (Obviously I doubt it). I'll warn you in advance - there's this thing called the law of the excluded middle...

Nate:
>And I'm afraid you're going to have to define theory for me, you seem to use the word a lot.

I am happy to use the standard, generally accepted definition for the term "theory", just as you might find at dictionary.com. It has no esoteric meaning that I would not expect to you to know. Which means we won't need to waste our time arguing over it.

- Daniel





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Post 138

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:26amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Just because we use words doesn't mean they are worth debating at any length. On that basis, you might equally argue that letters are the most important part of words - and so we should spend all our time discussing typefaces or handwriting style!
I suppose that you could argue that, if you want to drop the context.  Letters function as a phonetic guide for pronouncing words-- they have nothing to do with the underlying meaning of the word.  It would be like saying that two words which are spelt the same must have the same meaning, which is false.  However, propositions and statements gain their meaning from the the underlying concepts of which they are composed, along with the word order.

This is of course untrue. If I was to give a client a cost estimate that I said was "open-ended" he would be rightly suspicious...;-) He would think it was a "rough" costing, or an "incomplete" one. And this would be a perfectly reasonable suspicion.
More context dropping.  A cost estimate is not a concept.  Saying that two terms are synonymous in one context and then proceeding to claim that they are synonymous in all contexts is fallacious.

It would be like saying that since "blue" and "sad" are synonyms when dealing with one's emotional state (i.e., he's feeling blue and he's feeling sad have the same meaning), it follows that all blue objects are sad.

As I''ve shown above, it's hardly some obscure "conflation" on my part. It's the reality of the situation. However it's a question I'd be very interested in *your* answer to. (Obviously I doubt it). I'll warn you in advance - there's this thing called the law of the excluded middle...

Concepts are perfectly definite.  The issue in understanding the meaning of the word "red" is not that you have a "perfect" knowledge of all red things.  That's confusing the meaning of the concept with knowledge of the referents of the concept.  The only issue is whether you can tell a difference between a red thing and a non-red thing (say, a green thing).  To say that a concept is "indefinite" means that you don't know to what in reality the concept corresponds.

To say that it's "open-ended" means that it doesn't just refer to a fixed number of referents that you've seen already, that you can recognise a referent as being subsumed under the concept if necessary.  This is the reason that the open-ended nature of concepts is so important-- without the fact that there may be other referents that can be subsumed under the same concept, you have no way to use your concept in new situations.

This is basically a passage of Ayn Rand's Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.  I recommend that you read it-- it will probably answer some of your questions.

I am happy to use the standard, generally accepted definition for the term "theory", just as you might find at dictionary.com. It has no esoteric meaning that I would not expect to you to know. Which means we won't need to waste our time arguing over it.
This is very illuminating.  No 'esoteric' meaning that you would not expect me to know?  Do you assume that in order for a definition to be valid, that everyone has to know it already?  How then does one form new definitions?  How does one learn?

In general, you seem to be arguing here that because people can abuse the notion of a definition, they aren't worth having, and that we should rely upon a "rough idea" of what a concept is.  But then how are we to keep concepts from being abused, if we don't even know what they are ourselves?

Nate


Post 139

Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

I'm amazed at your patience. You're arguing with a guy trying to resolve rationalistically an issue that cannot be resolved rationalistically.  Some people think by argument that they can establish how words have been used and are being used and whether words mean the same thing to everyone, or whether most people use the dictionary meanings of words.

Those same people, after refusing to do such a study as would illuminate them, then go on to authoritatively speculate on how words should be used.

Shame on you! :)

(Edited by Next Level on 12/09, 10:18am)


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