About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Forward one pageLast Page


Post 100

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert D.

I'm of two minds on this, Robert.  So let me just sort things out in public.

When I call something "immoral" do I mean something more than "the willful suspension of reason?"  Ayn Rand called reason or thinking "man's only basic virtue, from which all the others proceed."  She added, "his basic vice...is...the willful suspension of one's consciousness, the refusal to think."  In this context, one cannot be "unintentionally immoral" and Shayne is right.

But, the act of thinking or its opposite, blanking out, is internal.  We can't see it.  What we see is only the overt actions of men and women. So when we make a judgment that someone is immoral we are making an assumption about the thinking process that went into their overt behaviour. We say that lying is immoral because it ignores reality and not because it breaks some rule ("thou shalt not lie").  And, because it's a principle, not a rule, we make allowance for context (it's OK to lie to a dictator or a thug who, by his/her actions, has put you in an irrational context).  So the rational thing to do, when we accuse someone of lying, and call them immoral, is to make sure we are accounting for their context and, I want to claim, their history. A man's moral character (i.e. his commitment to a rational process)  is not built in a day, and our judgment of it cannot be based on a handful of overt acts taken out of context.  One does not, legitimately, judge the morality of a 3-year-old with the same contextual assumptions that one does a 30-year-old  or a 60-year-old. One does not, legitimately, call Hank Rearden evil as quickly as one calls Lillian Rearden evil, even if they were both caught in a lie. (BTW it is the extent to which one can legitimately do this that is at the heart of the dispute between "Fact and Value" and "Truth and Toleration.")  In other words, one cannot use a rule-based standard to call someone "immoral".

And I'm afraid that it is a rule-based standard that you are using, Robert, to make your claim that it is possible to be "unintentionally immoral".  When one has used a rational process to come to some conclusion about how to act in a specific situation, the act is moral, even if, on further examination, one questions the facts or the conclusion.  (Please keep in mind that their are certain overt actions that are, on objective grounds, beyond the pale, beyond the possibility of defense by appeal to a rational process -- the actions of a dictator, for example. I, and Peikoff -- in "Fact and Value" -- also contend that there are certain overtly stated ideas that are beyond the pale as well, when expressed by  some adults in some contexts and, further, that it is immoral to treat such ideas and the people who make them as though they were capable of such a defense.)

I think then, that you are incorrect, here, Robert  There is a clear-cut distinction between "errors of knowledge" (failure to know the facts or their context) and "errors of morality" (failure to consider known facts or their known context). 

Thanks, Robert, for the opportunity to get a little clearer in my own thinking on this.

Tom


Post 101

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good argument Bidinotto(post 86), David Kelley has a logic book that could help.

But the people that know you do think that. You want to be treated as a great intellectual and your not. I don't think David Kelley fired you because you were doing a bang up job. Look at all the long winded posts on this tread and you still haven't answered Tom.

You don't still drive that VW bug that smoked like a DDT sprayer or sell those crazy pamphlets you and your wife printed up at home, do you?



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 102

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
hissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 103

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom, I wholeheartedly endorse what you write in post 100. What I've been seeking in these exchanges is clarity about the principles and terminology that each of us is employing in the matter of passing moral judgments. Reading this, I don't really think we're in substantive disagreement on those principles.

To respond to your earlier disappointments in my unwillingness to "get personal" about my judgments: I am far MORE interested in the principles, and far, far less interested in the differing judgments each of us may have come to about various individuals, which depend to a great extent on our personal experiences with them, and/or how we interpret what they "could have known" or "should have known" in certain contexts.

Anyone who reviews the complete list of posts here under my name will note a common theme in many of them: a deep concern for bad behavior, hypocrisy, rationalization, etc., within the Objectivist movement -- even among the most prominent representatives and spokesmen -- statements and actions which would lead a rational outside observer to question the value of this philosophy as a guide to his life. I have no desire (or stomach) to write an encyclopedic catalogue of such individuals and their aberrations. I am far more concerned about misinterpretations and abuses of the philosophy which might give rise to many of those aberrations.

That's the spirit in which I've written -- whether the subject was rationalizations for self-deceptive and destructive affairs, tortured rationalism, grossly unfair condemnations against individuals, twisted interpretations of the philosophy, etc. I make these points not because of some "second hander" worry about "public opinion." I make them because they give rational observers grounds to question the validity or value of the philosophy. Period.


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 104

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Bob": I'm as sympathetic to ARI as anyone here, but I'm not sympathetic to your cowardly, anonymous sniping.

Post 105

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,
Anyone who reviews the complete list of posts here under my name will note a common theme in many of them: a deep concern for bad behavior, hypocrisy, rationalization, etc., within the Objectivist movement
As I've said before, you seem overly concerned with intrinsicism and apathetic about subjectivism within the movement. That is the theme I see in your posts. It's unbalanced. If you were a champion of *objectivity*, well that I could praise.

PS: I'm glad you're ignoring that creep "Bob". Hopefully he'll redeem himself by logging in under his real name, apologize, and stop spewing hearsay into the forum.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 106

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for that personal defense, Shayne. Thanks also to you and Tom for sticking to substantive criticisms of my posts, rather than cheap ad hominems. They have been quite valuable, and have helped me refine my views on these topics.

As for why I've not provided more critiques to date of subjectivism within the Objectivist movement: that's because I believe the rationalism-intrinsicism problem is far more widespread than the empiricism-subjectivism problem in the movement -- something I recall that Peikoff also observed in "Understanding Objectivism" many years ago.

(Incidentally, in my defense, I should point out that my numerous previous posts here against rationalizing extramarital "affairs" -- and believe me, I wasn't just targeting the Affair, but rationalizations for them in general -- were not attacking intrinsicism, but subjectivism.) 

Examples of subjectivism (and no, I still refuse to name names; my policy is, "if the shoe fits...") among Objectivists usually amount to cherry-picking one or a few aspects of Objectivism they like, and simply ignoring those aspects that provide a very different context, but which they find uncomfortable or unconvincing. These include such things as: 

* "counterfeit individualism": dispensing with the "rational" in "rational self-interest." This leads some to twist Rand's moral arguments against altruism and authoritarian dogmatism, and her advocacy of judgmental "contextualism," into rationalizations for moral relativism, amoral pragmatism, mindless hedonism or a Nietszchean "selfishness" that entails the sacrifice of others to oneself;  

* dispensing with her theory of Romanticism in art as nonessential to her overall philosophy, when in "The Goal of My Writing" she made clear that projection (and defense) of her "ideal man" was the basic goal of her entire philosophic project. This leads some to either excuse or endorse art that is non-objective, sometimes even malignantly depraved;

* misreading her assaults on governmental violations of rights as an assault on government per se, and thus grossly twisting her argument for man's rights into an argument for anarchism;

* in a similar vein, fixating on Rand's fictional character Ragnar Danneskjold, or reading Howard Roark's dynamiting of Cortlandt out of context, in order to interpret "rational self-interest" as an excuse for anarchic law-breaking and even violent anti-governmental acts.

These are just a few things that I've seen within the smaller, "subjectivist" elements of the movement. In some cases these are simply innocent confusions, mistakes in understanding Objectivism; in others they are motivated by a desire to give a Randian rationalization to personal subjectivism in one's actionsIn either case, though, they amount to subjectivist distortions of Objectivism.

Let me repeat again, any distortion of Objectivism -- particularly those that attempt to excuse unconscionable statements and actions -- would give rational people grounds to believe that Objectivism constitutes little more than an ideological rationalization for bad behavior. The philosophy is too important to allow this to happen without protest. (My extensive writings against anarchism and anarchists -- go here, then scroll to "Anarchism vs. Limited Government" -- have been similarly motivated: the politics of individual rights and personal liberty is too important for it to be publicly associated with an indefensible "theory" such as anarchism.)

You and Tom have sensitized me to the need to voice more criticism of subjectivism within the movement. You're probably right, and I'll try to be more "public" about examples of such when I see them.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 107

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Let me add to Shayne's, katdaddy's and Robert's abhorrence of Bob's anonymous sucker-punching my own revulsion.

May I recommend to you, Bob, that you get lost or shut the fuck up or be a man of dignity. It's your choice. Do you wish to join the society of men? If so, please join us in plain view. If not, summon enough dignity to leave.

The irony in your posts is that you create more sympathy for the very man who is the target of your cowardly broadsides.


Post 108

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"The irony in your posts is that you create more sympathy..."

Elmore, I read them over but I don't see any irony in my posts. But your use of sympathy as an argument for your view is interesting.

You seem to be saying you don't dispute what I say, just the fact I say it.



Post 109

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You seem to be saying you don't dispute what I say, just the fact I say it.
How can anyone dispute hearsay? All that's left is to refer to the character of the person saying it. And that looks pretty dismal for you so far.


Post 110

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
David Elmore 1992: "Rational people need the facts--all the facts, no matter what their source."

David Elmore 2005: "shut the fuck up"

What happened?


Post 111

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"How can anyone dispute hearsay? All that's left is to refer to the character of the person saying it. And that looks pretty dismal for you so far."

Shane, your really trying to dismiss my argument by attacking me, implying that I have a nonrational motive for saying it?


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 112

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Now, Bob, we have a mystery, and I can't help trying to solve it like the good little Miss Marple I am. If you knew my husband's magazine in 1992, then I surmise you may be either Bob Stubblefield or Bob Garmong. I don't know Bob Stubblefield, but since hearsay is ok by ole Bob, I hear he's as ornery as a critter half run over. Now I do know Bob Garmong, have broken bread with him (chow mein, really), and know that as a fellow Wordsworth fan and lover of garlic chicken and generally sweet fellow, he wouldn't come here talking about Robert's past cars, no matter what wrecks they may have been, now would he? Now Bob, if you are some other Bob, unknown to me, please let me know if you are a critter half run over, a Wordsworth fan, or some other variety of ARI infiltration.

Kelly

P.S. Congratulations for keeping that old quote of David's. It was a smart move, since someday he will be a bestselling author and you can make a fortune selling it on Ebay!!

Post 113

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
or some other variety of ARI infiltration
I don't understand comments like this. There are a lot of good people at ARI, and I would think they'd be welcome here.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 114

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I want to commend Robert Bidinotto for his equanimity in this matter.

I, at first, had much trouble with Robert's article. Shayne's comments can be taken as to be representative of my view as well (between instrinsicism and subjectivism--Robert had hammered intrinsicism into the abyss, but had left subjectivism in its wake).

I felt that Robert was a man on a path to glorification at all costs, and that he wouldn't care to see this contrary view of subjectivism fitting in to this theme, because of the personal stock that folks usually take in anything they've created--but I was wrong about him, he is a virtuous man. He admits limitation in his own creation (essay) and I hold him in high esteem for that.

As far as the "troll" (aka Bob) goes, I join the others in condemning your behavior as cut-throat, two-bit, and back-stabbing. You don't make a good case with this smearing crap (you should've known that these words of yours would create the response that they did--in a forum of intelligent, justice-oriented creatures).

Ed

Post 115

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Now, Kelly dear, that "critter run half over" sounds about right, but I've got it on good authority (four children just emailed me) that the Bob in question is none other than Sponge Bob Squarepants.

Now, Bob, ARE you Squarepants???!!!!!

(Edited by David Elmore on 4/24, 6:24pm)


Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 116

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,

When teasing out the essential differences between ARI and TOC for me, I have to draw a distinction between moral evaluation and acting on that evaluation. In general I find very little to quibble with in Fact and Value regarding moral evaluation per se. In fact, regarding the standards for judging others I find that the exhaustive searching for all possible sources of innocent error to be cognitively crippling.

It's the various Jehovah's Witness style disfellowshipping incidents used by some in ARI to act on moral evaluations that I find  abhorrent. When I find fault with someone morally, it's an occasion for sadness and in the case of Objectivists a certain wistfulness at innocence lost.

This is where I think Truth and Toleration shines. In explicating the mitigating factors in the application in action of moral evaluation and how we can act with proportionality and a sense of fair play, Kelley has shown that it is not necessary to look for enemies under every rock. One of the most bizarre manifestations of moral judgment as applied by Peikoff, Schwartz, and Binswanger is that the more you agree with them, the less they brook small disagreements. In other words it's much better to be a heathen than a heretic.

I would think that the fact that someone has the moral rectitude to adopt Objectivism in the first place, they would be given more benefit of the doubt in a disagreement, not less. In fact, the homage of reason requires a spirit of open inquiry. My hope for the future of Objectivism is that ARI will apply more rationality to the application in action of moral evaluation and that TOC will beef up and maintain consistent standards for upholding Objectivist principles in their commentary.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 4/24, 6:30pm)


Post 117

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Oh, David, you've gotten it wrong! Bob isn't SpongeBob! He's Bob Dylan. I know because all of this posts are accompanied by harmonica music. I actually heard him singing (to the tune of Like a Rolling Stone):

How does it feel?
How does is feel?
To be Peikoff's own,
A complete unknown,
Like a trolling gnome.

There's the proof. It's Bob Dylan who keeps making such a muck of this thread.

Kelly

Post 118

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No, no, Kelly!

Bob's not a troll.
He's Bob Dole!


Post 119

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Silly David. Bob Dole is dead, right? Wasn't he always?

Anyway, I have finally figured out who Bob is. I was sitting around smoking some pot and playing my bongo drums, when it hit me! He's Bob Marley. The evidence was before us all the time in a song we all know by our troll Bob:

(To the tune of I Shot the Sheriff)

We shot George Reismann,
His soul was evil to the core,
We shot George Reismann,
Leonard won't let us read his book no more.

Leonard Peikoff always hated him,
For what I don't know,
Every time he wrote a masterpiece,
He'd say "Kill it before the sales grow."

Bob Marley, definitely. I have to get back to the bongos, man.
Kelly

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.