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Post 140

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Perhaps as an engineer and scientist I am used to using "context" in a different way than you are. As an engineer, in order to make a claim that I am certain about I set the context as a set of boundary conditions. Given an object within certain velocity ranges, F=ma is an accurate approximation and I set error bars around this approximation.

The context of my knowledge in the global sense you use may or may not be sufficient to establish a claim. How do I know? I take an inventory and see what kind of logical statements I can make with validity from the facts at my disposal. How do I know when I know enough? I use a set of epistemic norms. But as a starting point it is never enough to say I've done the best I can within my context of knowledge. Why? Because my knowledge context may be lousy, great or anywhere in between at any given time. It doesn't say anything about whether my claim corresponds to reality.

Jim


Post 141

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

I will think about giving you a million dollars if you can restrict a post to one word. ;^)


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Post 142

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Agreed

Post 143

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jeez, can I play?

Whoops. Damn.

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Post 144

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Check's in the mail!!!

Post 145

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Tom, I agree with your post 139. You can only act on what you know. Degrees of "possibility" and "probability" can only be meaningful within that context.

James does raise the valid concern as to when one can regard his context of knowledge as sufficient to make specific kinds of decisions. If knowledge is open-ended, when do you have "enough" information?

It seems to me that the only way to answer this question is that you must let context (that word again!) be the deciding factor in particular cases. In some matters, you may not need to draw any conclusion at all, since the issue isn't that important or timely. (I suspect that many character judgments we make, concerning people whose presence is only fleeting in our lives, are unnecessary and irrelevant.) But there are occasions when we must act; and the action requires that we draw conclusions and make decisions. However, this almost always occurs within some time frame leading up to a deadline; and there, the deadline sets a limit on our information gathering.

I realize this doesn't remotely exhaust the considerations, but I suppose it's a starting place.  


Post 146

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

       As I wrote the last post I was reminded of a scene in Atlas where Dagny says "I hired you to do a job, not your best, whatever the hell that means". In the realm of moral judgment we set a finite context within which we reason about the problem. We would never be able to logically process completely within even our own global context. Our epistemic norms tell us whether we are on the right track and when we are finished and what level of precision is appropriate.
       So yes, in your universal sense, we can't get out of contextual knowledge at any given time because we can't get out of reality. We can however, take care, define a limited (sometimes very limited) context, operate within it and achieve certainty. I would argue that that kind of certainty was absolute because the claim is true (corresponds to reality), you would say it is contextual and I think we are saying the same the thing. But when someone is stretched by a problem against the bounds of what they know, they do the best they can. This is not certainty within a context of knowledge, it is simply operating with incomplete information and not drawing a conclusion.

Jim


Post 147

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Stewart Kelly: “The REAL question is what is "moral perfection."”

And the real, real question is: what facts of reality give rise to the concept of “moral perfection”? Presumably, if the concept is valid, it is grounded in at least two real-life examples of lives that embody the concept.

And there’s the rub. We can look at some of the “facts” of, say, Ayn Rand’s life – her impatience, fear of flying, apparent escape into fantasy – but cannot come to a meaningful conclusion about her moral status merely by considering those bare facts. We need a moral theory by which to interpret the facts – eg, she was a genius and a visionary, and therefore cannot be judged by the standards that apply to ordinary people.

But whence the theory? It doesn’t seem to be derived from the “facts” of Rand’s life -- even though epistemologically it should -- because it’s being used to interpret those very same facts. On the other hand, if the concept of moral perfection can be derived from the facts of Rand’s life, one would need to show that those facts are fully integrated with her professed values.

I’m not sure how this could be done, in a way that doesn’t beg the question, although I suppose it could provide for many hours of happy speculation.

Brendan


Post 148

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 4:57amSanction this postReply
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James,

How do you know if your knowledge context is lousy?

Tom


Post 149

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Sure. The expansion of knowledge is a never-ending pursuit.  And you, in the face of reality, are in charge.  And you are responsible for the results.  As I am.

As you say, sometimes you just have to make a decision, because the input never ends if you let it.  So you look at the situation, you consider the input that you've got, and you make a decision.  If you're rational, and new information warrants, you change. 

On the other side, it should not be automatically assumed that because someone believes that they have "new information" or are outraged at a decision that someone else made (and is clearly willing to live with) that they have "standing" with the person. Ayn Rand was acutely aware of this issue, I believe appropriately. 

I remember one story that made the rounds many years back about someone who managed to get her phone number and called her about writing an opera, I think on the Icarus legend.  I believe she was quoted as saying, "and what do I need you for?" making it clear that she did not want people riding on her name and reputation.  This was the issue in NBI's decision to stop endorsing artistic events. And for good reason, if the dance recital I witnessed at Little Carnagie was any indication.  It was, I believe, the premise behind NBIs insistence on the right to screen NBI reps or close down attempts to "teach Objectivism" by people they didn't know.  This was not an issue of "party line" or "official doctrine"  as some have tried to make it out, but of  "standing."  For all NBI or Miss Rand knew the people who were teaching these courses might have done a better job than Mr. Branden.  But they had no standing.  They had no business attracting students using Ayn Rand's name and reputation without Ayn Rand's permission.

How does one loose standing?  Well, here again, it depends on the standing you had;  the more you have, the harder it is to loose. The Brandens had enormous standing with Ayn Rand based on a close relationship that developed over many years. And from all accounts, including Barbara Branden's, it was not thrown over lightly, in a day. The same principle is true of David Kelley, George Reisman, Edith Packer, Linda Reardan, and Jerry Kirkpatrick on the one hand and of Mike Berliner, Peter Schwartz, John Ridpath, Gary Null, and Harry Binswanger on the other.

I think -- this is pure speculation, mind you -- that Dr. Peikoff sees this issue of standing in moral terms. This is only partially a matter of "authority" (although that is, properly, I believe, part of the context), it is a matter of what a person has earned the right to say and do in the context of the established relationship.

To give an example at a lower level.  No one on this forum has the standing with me to question my honesty or my commitment to reason.  As I do not have that right toward them. It wouldn't take very much for me to stop talking  to someone on this panel who talked to me in a way that assumed or stated that I was dishonest or lacked a commitment to reason.  My wife, my sister, my best friend are "safer" in their relationship with me if they did the very same thing.  And it has nothing to do with the "truth" of the issue.  I can't listen to everyone, issues are not a matter of majority vote, they are, like everything, a matter of established context -- ALL the context -- and I can't take forever to make a decision.

Another issue that needs to be discussed -- and which I think is lurking in the background -- is that of "airing ones dirty laundry in public."   Here again, I think Peikoff sees this issue in moral terms. (Perhaps this is behind Thomas Knapp's objection to James Valliant's book, though I'd want to know if there is a double standard at work). And along with that is "the very idea" that anyone would question his right to keep some internal issues "under wraps."

Personally, I think he's right.  But that can wait for another thread.

Tom


Post 150

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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Tom:

Absolute certainly is impossible because we may know more or better in the future or find that what we thought we had observed as a pattern of nature has changed or a new complexity has been discovered.

That is why all knowledge is contextual, ie., a snapshot at a particular point in time and space with the knowledge available at the moment.

One reaches moral decisions based upon this snapshot.  If additional information becomes available, we may find that what we thought was a well reasoned moral decision, fails in the light of new information.  Therefore moral certainty, like absolute certainty, fails.


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Post 151

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Tom,
It wouldn't take very much for me to stop talking  to someone on this panel who talked to me in a way that assumed or stated that I was dishonest or lacked a commitment to reason. 
I would be sad if you were referring to me here. It would mean you didn't understand me yet. (Or maybe the package deal concept I discussed.)

Being committed to reason and being honest (which I judge not only describes you, but describes me quite well) does not attribute a person with infallibility. He/she needs precisely that commitment when lapses do occur over the course of living.

To me, a "greatness" indicator of a person is in their intensity to such commitment, including self-honesty.

Does "perfect" commitment instead of "perfect" execution sound OK to you?

Michael


Post 152

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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James,

Maybe we are saying the same thing. But I don't think it's because of our inability to get out of reality (if I'm getting your use of "reality" correctly), we just can't escape the limits of our current knowledge and the principles we bring to the table.

And in judging human behavior, it's not just the facts, here, it's how we evaluate the facts -- it's the distinction between "cognitive" and "normative" abstractions that AR pointed to in her discussions of art and ethics.

I think the assumption is often made that Objectivism teaches that knowing the facts is enough to lead to an automatic, or at least semi-automatic, evaluative conclusion. But as I argue in the post just above this one, the facts are not enough. One's context includes not only the facts one knows but the evaluative principles that one has accepted. A person that accepts a "commandment" ethics will see the issues raised in the various "schisms" quite differently from a person who accepts a "principle" ethics. One who accepts the principle of altruism will evaluate them quite differently from on who accepts egoism.

Scientists, quite properly, deal with "just the facts."  Very rarely, if ever, would they think in terms of whether a quark was behaving in accordance with a proper moral code. But, on the lighter side, just imagine a TV show called, "Quarks behaving badly."

Tom 



Post 153

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:22amSanction this postReply
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Brenden,

Just a note at this point to say that I disagree with your first assumption that in order to define the concept of moral perfection one has to find at least two examples of its instantiation.

But this is a long argument which I don't have time for this morning.  So I'll be back.

Tom


Post 154

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Robert D.

Absolute certainty is impossible because all we have is contextual certainty.  And that is all we need.  But see above and below for my argument that in evaluative contexts we not only need to consider the bare facts (the cognitive abstractions involved) but also the normative abstractions that we -- and others -- bring to the table.

Tom


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Post 155

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Michael, my man

I am so sorry if you thought this might apply to you. So far, only one or two people have even come close to making that assumption about me, and soon cleared it up. And isn't that what we find to be so obnoxious about BOOB?  And about the sycophants we find around both sides of these issues.  I don't think either side wants sycophants, even though both sides would like people to agree with them (in fact, insist on it in certain contexts!)

Rest easy, Michael, I have come to respect you a great deal, despite our differences (if any, see below). You do remember, don't you, that you were one of the reasons I stuck around.

Tom

PS Perfect commitment is exactly it!  Perfect execution would involve omniscience, and perfect by that standard is not a standard for man at all.  My point exactly.  WE AGREE!
Roll out the barrel, pull up a scotch, uncork that bottle, let's party!

PPS Why didn't I say that before! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 


(Edited by Tom Rowland on 4/26, 8:56am)


Post 156

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

The issue of standing, as you say, is important. But Leonard Peikoff has had an overweening tendency to assert authority about issues where he is not an expert and delegate authority to persons with a similar tendency. This was at least some of the issue in the case of the Reismans. I'll tell you a personal story from college. I had an Objectivist friend (who is now a quantum physicist at the University of Toronto) who asked Peikoff what the epistemological implications of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle were (specifically with regard to the quantum nature of particles with a rest mass such as electrons, protons etc.) Peikoff quite properly answered that he didn't feel he knew enough about the subject. But if you look at OPAR page 17, he clearly states that Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is only a "measurement issue". So if he felt qualified to write it in his book, why didn't he feel qualified to answer my friend?

Incidentally, both my friend and I deal every day with the fact that it is not a "measurement issue".

Jim 


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Post 157

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
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Sorry Tom, I know you might be offended, but I gotta laugh...
Absolute certainty is impossible because all we have is contextual certainty.
Well then, is this "certainty" in "contextual certainty" absolute - or is it contextual too? You mean we have contextual certainty of our contextual certainty?

Does this kind of "certainty" apply to moral perfection too?

LOL... (sorry...)

Or how about axiomatic concepts like existence? Now I find myself to be squarely on the opposite end of the "perfection " (or absolute) issue - and still at odds with you on "perfection."

I personally have absolute certainty of axiomatic concepts. They are perfect. They supercede all context. They ARE my context.

I am absolutely certain of this.

Michael

Edit - Our posts crossed again - so you can skip that part above of "you might be offended." Now I know you won't be. You must have been referring to someone who you found insulting (ad hominem I believe is the current flavor in jargon) and not to the ideas in themselves. Whew! Frankly that pleases me to no end. I kinda like you.

Second edit - Dayamm! We crossed again. My first edit crossed with your "PS." So skip the "still at odds with you on perfection" part too. Are we gonna cross again? LOLLOLOLOL...

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/26, 9:03am)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/26, 9:07am)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/26, 9:09am)


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Post 158

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Not offended at all!!  In fact, I'm LingOL as I  write this. //:-)

Axiomatic concepts  are exactly and absolutely the absolute certainty which is absolute and provides the absolute context for all contextual certainty which isn't. Am I making myself clear?  \\;-)

Hope that settles it!!

Tom


Post 159

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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James,

Maybe he changed his mind??  It happens.

Tom


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