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Post 120

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne wrote: "I don't understand comments like this. There are a lot of good people at ARI, and I would think they'd be welcome here."

James really sums up my opinions well. I agree with ARI philosophically. I just hate a lot of their applications, their methods, and their image. I don't want them to be my representatives to the world. I will say they seem to have gotten a lot better since Peikoff, Berliner, and Schwarz have backed off, and Yaron Brook has taken the lead. My comment was aimed at the "infiltrators," people who come here to cause trouble rather than people who come here to talk and learn and meet other Objectivists.

Kelly

Post 121

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Silly David. Bob Dole is dead, right? Wasn't he always?

This talk of Bob Dole reminded me of a scene from Simpsons:

Bob Dole: (on congressman election): Maybe Bob Dole should run. Bob Dole thinks Bob Dole should. Actually, Bob Dole just wants to hear Bob Dole talk about Bob Dole. Bob Dole!


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Post 122

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto in a VW bug?

Hmmmmmm...

Most worthy of moral condemnation.

Robert, I repudiate you!

But to make it right and final, I think you took if off the hands of Ted Kennedy to help him out with his swimming accident. The time frame sure fits, I think...

And anyway, you are a yellow lily-livered liberal in disguise, spying on the unwary Objectivists! The proof is undeniable and axiomatic and both synthetic and analytic.

The imperative is completely categorical, so there!

Michael


Post 123

Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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Why Michael - VW Bugs are the best cars to drive around..... in today's world, they're actually safer than some of the contemporary ones.....all solid metal, no plastic......

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Post 124

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:01amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Wow. So much has gone on in this thread while I had to attend a couple of professional things... (including some local fireworks...)

I want to go back to your Post 67, where you brought up a couple of issues that I wanted to discuss about Ayn Rand's personality. You knew Ayn Rand from a student's perspective (or at least that of a lecture audience member maybe), I presume. And this was after the split with the Brandens. Please correct me if I am wrong - I am only going by an impression from your posts. This view of her (or any close-up view actually) fascinates me.

Just to refresh things a bit, I made the comment that, among pride and self esteem, a person sometimes has surges of less noble sentiments - like undeserved conceit. I believe that Ayn Rand was not above this, although I was speculating. Still I am pretty sure that this was a fairly good speculation (more below). Maybe I should have also mentioned apparently causeless insecurity, sudden boredom or irritation in a happy context and a host of other non-rationally explained emotional surges. You even mentioned flare ups at students, but you gave a rational speculation for this. Anyway, these things happen to all of us. They are part of the human experience.

(Hell, even domestic animals have mood swings.)

We were discussing all this in the context of moral perfection.

After reading your post here, it is clear that you suspect I have a subtext to my observations that crosses into the various splits and fights that seem to endlessly mark the Objectivist movement. I don't.

I did have one subtext, though. It was that I have viewed all this from a distance of a South American continent and over 30 years. It took me a long time down there to understand that Ayn Rand was a human being, not a goddess. There was nothing to be gained for me from holding her up like that. On the contrary, this deification actually stifled my thinking a great deal. It was only after I lost my goddess that I gained a true mentor.

Imagine someone deifying Ayn Rand without anyone around to intimidate him and slap him into line when heretical thoughts cropped up. A one-man band playing perfect Ayn Rand! The idea is almost comical, but that was little old hardheaded me. And did I seek converts back then! Brazilians would read her books, scratch their heads and go back to their soccer games and samba. I would go nuts trying to figure out why. (Now I pretty much know, but that is for another discussion.)

After some excruciating personal lessons in the need to observe first and think later, I had to stop the bullshit literally in order to survive (another long story). I had to come to the conclusion that the world was what it was, not some Objectivist construct that you stuffed into axiomatic concept pigeonholes or whatever, even where things didn't fit. These concepts - and others - are useful and even true, but I am talking about the need to see (OK, identify) first, then think.

Well the same goes for evaluating a a magnificent thinker and novelist like Ayn Rand. Since it is pretty easy to close down a one-man band, I was fortunate in not having social pressure and partisan fighting around me to cloud my vision when her pedestal cracked.

Tom, I have been an artistic producer for many years. One thing I learned a great deal about the hard way was how prima donnas tick, what they thrive on, their emotional needs, their fragilities, etc. Lesson number one is that prima donnas are prima donnas because they have greatness within them. So if you don't love them, if you don't see their greatness for what it is, stay a long way away, because they have a radar for phony appreciation of their art that cuts right to the bone.

They are also quirky. There are a number of reasons for this, but it is a common enough occurrence to not have to delve deeply into to prove it right now. Prima donnas do crazy stuff all the time when they are not busy lighting up the world with their beauty and splendor.

I believe that Ayn Rand had a typical prima donna mentality from what I have been able to observe (including newspaper and magazine accounts, people like you who met her, and, of course more traditional sources). She was very much in control of her entourage and demanded absolute loyalty. But she was brilliant. She was unjust. She was generous. Of course, she could do no wrong. I could go on, but hopefully you can start to see where I am coming from.

It is within this context that I call her moral perfection that is postulated by some into question. There is absolutely no attempt to demean her with all this. On the contrary, this prima donna genius aspect is one I do not see discussed often. I see more of a good-evil approach bantered about instead, which I think misses the mark altogether. Either Ayn Rand is worshipped as the greatest human being who ever lived, or she is gleefully dragged through the mud. (The younger Objectivists I have met thankfully are not at either end of this spectrum - they actually are more rational about her that the older ones are.)

For me, I completely lost the ability to compare her to other magnificent human beings to evaluate who was greater - and I don't like looking only at her warts. She was an artist. Even as a philosopher, she had an artist's temperament. Her flair for the dramatic resulted in excesses and posturing for the maximum effect. She went too far with the insinuation that she was morally perfect. I believe that this was more for effect - like any great artist would do - than substance anyway. Trying to live up to something like that became a holy mess, though, from all accounts.

So, now we get back to the starting point of what morally perfect is, which in other posts has even been called into question as a valid concept.

Please understand that I have no wish to demean her - or any of her follower factions. I see what I see and then think about it. Maybe, after enough talk, we can even start agreeing one day about some of these things.

Michael

Post 125

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 3:42amSanction this postReply
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To a large degree, you are quite correct in your assessment of Ayn Rand.... Kay Nolte Smith wrote a book covering some of the same , ELEGY FOR A SOPRANO..... good one to read, if you haven't already.....  just remember, she wasn't always like that, except to her public perhaps, just seemed like such..... and, from a personal point, can say she was aware of it, at least at times - tho she took pains to hide that possibility....

Post 126

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Guys, I have never owned a VW in my whole life. Give me some credit.

Of all the insults, that had to be the lowest.


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Post 127

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'll come back to the substantive part of your post in a later reply, but I do want to get the historical record straight.

I attended NBI lectures while at Juilliard 1961-63.  Also attended several live lectures by Ayn Rand at Columbia University. NBI courses included "Basic Principles", "Art" (Mary Ann Rukavina [Sures]), and others

Attended NBI taped series in Washington DC c.63-65. Everything available at the time.
Worked with Charles Sures on Conscientious Objector status filing with draft board and taught Mary Ann Sures piano lessons during this period.

Moved to East Lansing to serve CO "sentence" c.1966. Between 66 and 68 only contact with Objectivists was playing the piano for production of Fantasticks (at the suggestion of my friend Jeff Warren, who played El Gallo) at Haugton Lake Playhouse under the direction of Philip J. Smith (Kay Nolte Smith's husband). Patricia Wynand was in the cast of the current production while we were in rehearsal and NB visited one weekend.

Received "To Whom It May Concern" issue of The Objectivist and NB's letter that Summer.

Moved to DC, then to Pittsburgh with first wife summer-early fall 1968. Attended taped lectures in Pittsburgh (who was sponsoring these, I can't remember) Very conflicted about break. Met Fred Seddon.

So my experience of Ayn Rand and other Objectivists dates from before the break. When I was in New York I thought of  the Brandens as the parents I would have chosen, had I had the choice (I thought of them as much older than me, which wasn't true, but that was the feeling).  I can remember the mixture of excitement and "fear" I felt the first time I set foot in the Roosevelt Hotel, knowing that I was going to see and possibly meet my heroes. I remember the many times that I got to the hotel early and stood on the mezzanine balcony  and, looking down into the lobby, watched NB come up the stairs, whistling. I remember standing with a group of students asking questions of BB after AR's "America's Persecuted Minority" talk at Columbia; she gave the perfect answer to someone who complained that she wasn't able to buy her favorite classical records any more.  Jeff and I found an empty Dollar Sign Cigarette box at that lecture and excitedly went up to Frank O'Connor and asked about them (we both smoked at the time).

Sorry, I got carried away there  The memories certainly do begin to flood in.

I saw all of these people as heroes of mine.  I was very conflicted by the break.  I bought the bios, I argued with Fred, I subscribed to Academic Associates (NB's book and Q&A recording service after the break), I had a review of an academic philosophy text published in Book News. I still have some of the AA recordings on my shelves.

James posted a note saying that "when [he] finds fault with someone morally, it is an occasion for sadness."  Of course, often it is. But that doesn't change the facts or the reasoning that goes into those judgments of immorality.  Or, James, the often difficult actions that must be taken as a result.

What I am questioning, to some extent Socratically, is everyone's understanding of what we are all talking about.  We throw these phrases around -- "nobody's perfect," "Ayn Rand was not a goddess, she was a human being", "moral perfection," "actions that would cause any (?) rational (?) observer to question..." -- etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam. And much of it is aimed, in my view, at avoiding the necessity of that pain that sometimes comes with the decision that someone is not just mistaken, but wrong, maybe even evil.  

Benevolent people don't want to believe that evil exists -- particularly in the people that they are close to. "Not goddess, but a human being" works the other way, too, and becomes "Human being, so not evil."    But evil is evil.

Enough for now.

Tom


Post 128

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Of course we sometimes have to take action on our moral evaluations, but when we take action the epistemological standard is more stringent than when we made the evaluation. When we hang a man we want to be certain, not just "certain within our context of knowledge". The result of the failure to change standards is clear: if you cannot justify your judgments to an honest man with a different context, you can expect him to hold you morally accountable for your judgments.

Jim


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Post 129

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Prompted by MSK's and Robert M's posts above: "Genius" is a topic worthy of its own thread.

Vardis Wolf, Kay Nolte Smith's fictional heroine in Elegy for a Soprano, was based on a composite of at least three real persons -- Rand was one, and I believe Smith said that Maria Callas was another (I can't recall the third). From the biographical material I've seen about Callas, she was strikingly similar to Rand in certain aspects of temperament, style and self-assessment.

One observation I can safely make about many geniuses I've read about is that they often can't grasp why other people "just don't get it," when some idea or observation seems so simple and obvious to them. This tends to make many geniuses suspicious of or impatient with what they view as rampant stupidity and evasion around them -- a perspective that comes across to those around them as imperious and arrogant. In a way, it's the opposite of a psychological "blind spot": it's their capacity to see certain things much more easily and clearly than most people.

In Rand's case, we of course have no access to her inner thought processes, except for the clues provided by her statements, public appearances, writings and the testimony of those who knew her. But at least one aspect of how her mind worked seems to manifest itself in all of these accounts.

Reading her fiction, essays, letters and journals, I am struck by the fact that she did, as Michael says above, look at the world primarily as an artist or dramatist would. Rand was, above all, a Romantic visionary: to the subject of philosophy, she brought the artist's perceptual ability to concretize abstractions. I believe she literally "saw" abstract ideas, personified and embodied in the world around her. She constantly translated abstractions into metaphors and allegories -- concrete representations and embodiments. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" became the 20th Century Motor story. "Altruism" became her childhood hero, Cyrus, bleeding on a sacrificial altar. "Reason vs. emotionalism" became the Apollo moon landing versus the Woodstock festival. Etc.

This rare ability to marshal art and dramatization in service to her philosophical writing added compelling power and persuasive tangibility, major reasons for its extraordinary accessibility and influence. But in addition, I think Rand's ability or habit of visualizing abstractions had at least two significant consequences for her personality.

First, I think it was the root of her intense passion about ideas. "...I can see the consequences too clearly," she once wrote about the reason for her courageous, embattled fight for her values. Because she could literally "see" the consequences of ideas, "see" her Ideal Man, "see" the flow of history as a war between the flag-bearers of good and evil premises, she became and remained extremely passionate about it all. Hers were no dispassionate, analytical dissections of esoteric ideas; they were personal, emotional thunderbolts of logic hurled at her philosophical enemies. She also thought of herself and her own historic role in dramatic, metaphorical terms: for example, as she put it in the introduction to The Romantic Manifesto, as a "bridge" between the Romanticism of the past and of the future. In that respect, she reminds me a lot of both Hugo and Rostand, who similarly viewed themselves in dramatic terms, as playing a pivotal historic role in the battle to advance their artistic visions.

Second, I think this visionary ability was the root of her frequent bursts of impatience with and anger toward others -- particularly toward her followers (something I occasionally witnessed at public events, and once experienced first-hand). Because Rand could see things so clearly, things that seemed to her so obvious and self-evident, those around her who remained several steps behind simply had to be resisting the facts: they had to be willfully evading. When she once was asked what distinguished her from other people, I was struck by her answer; she didn't say anything pertaining to intellect or genius or talent; she answered, "Honesty." I don't think a great visionary like Rand could ever quite grasp that others honestly couldn't see what she could see.

In addition, I've often wondered to myself if Rand's extraordinary talent as a Romantic visionary may have had yet another personal consequence: that it sometimes made the ideal world of her creation more palpable to her than was the world of actual, lesser people around her. Reading her novels, where her heroes are sometimes portrayed as looking off into space, into some distance, holding onto some mental image of their moral ideal...reading biographical material about her, which portrays a woman who (unlike her Dagny) couldn't drive, feared flying and couldn't navigate in a kitchen...I get the impression of a genius who may have preferred the world of her creation to the often frustrating and ugly world around her. I even get the impression that sometimes, in a social or public setting, the reassuring images of Galt or Roark or Francisco were there before her, encouraging her, giving this noble visionary anchors to and reminders of her ideals...

I do not mean to suggest for a moment that Rand was in any way unattached to reality, and certainly not psychotic: no one severed from perceptual reality could have possibly come up with so many keen observations and insights about human psychology and society. But sequestered hour after hour, day after day, year after year in a closed office before a typewriter and a blank sheet of paper, fantasizing about one's ideal heroes and heroines, amounts to "living" inside one's head a lot. From personal experience, I know that during extended periods when I've done that sort of thing, I've tended to develop a kind of "tunnel vision" about people and events; I've sometimes succumbed to deducing long, attenuated chains of rationalistic inferences about them, inferences that later proved invalid. The reason was the lack of sufficient empirical checks and input -- an imbalance between experience and reason in my life.

There's no way I can prove such speculations, of course; they just seem to fit as possible explanations for what is known about Rand's personal life and habits. And the explanations also fit what we can observe about other Romantic visionaries.

I hope it's obvious that none of this is meant to demean Rand in any way. It is only meant to suggest that great ability or talent or genius in a certain area of one's life may sometimes come at a price -- the price being an imbalance, and corresponding deficits in other areas. I view with great sympathy the challenge a genius must face in maintaining balance in his or her life. Not all geniuses have; some have become monsters. But measured by productive work of enormous value to millions, Ayn Rand on the whole managed far better than most.


Post 130

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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Mysterious Stranger said it best.

"Yaron is a very skilled organizer and speaker, with an aggressive optimism that has made him especially successful. But he is otherwise not fundamentally different from the other past or present principals at ARI. Indeed, if the slanders about ARI being a haven for dogmatism and conformity were true, then someone like him could never have been made Executive Director in the first place."


Post 131

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

There is a fundamental difference between Yaron and his predecessors. He has not yet banished anyone without justification. If Dr. Peikoff, Dr. Binswanger, and Peter Schwartz can provide justification for the banishment of Dr. Reisman, fine. If not, they bear the burden of moral judgment from those who consider the available evidence.

Jim


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Post 132

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I agree with you about prima donnas. I believe that Ayn Rand, Dr. Peikoff (primo don), maybe even Andrew Bernstein (judging from Chris Wolf's account), Nathaniel and Barbara Branden, David Kelley, et al fit into this category.  Maybe, to some extent, we all do. We don't like to be crossed, we want loyalty from our friends (even demand it as the price of friendship), treat disagreements as personal slights, treat personal slights as moral depravity, the list goes on.

But why belabor the obvious. Human beings make mistakes.  The question before the house is: are these mistakes MORAL mistakes? And even more importantly, can we make the claim that everyone is MORALLY IMPERFECT?  If that claim is made I ask, "imperfect, by what standard?"  

Is it enough to say "by a rational standard?"  Not by a long shot.(argument from intimidation often involved).
Is is enough to say "we all make mistakes"?  Not by a long shot. (subjectivism and relativism often involved).

When someone says that "Ayn Rand was sometimes unjust", I want first to know chapter and verse and what you mean by "unjust" and why you, if you do, assume that "unjust" always means "immoral."  (along the lines of my "rule-based" morality posts in this and other threads).

If we say, with Ayn Rand, that "A rational process is a moral process," and we say that "Reason integrates man's perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions...[using the method of] logic [to provide] non-contradictory identification," and then someone says that "Ayn Rand was immoral," then they are claiming that she failed to go through that process, consciously -- i.e. she willfully blanked out, refused to think, defaulted on her own moral standards.  At least that's my reading of the text (these and other relevant discussions). Is yours different?

And if that is what anyone wants to claim, I want to say, "how do you know?" Have you read her mind, or is she making an argument that is "beyond the pale."  And if anyone wants to make either one of those claims, I will tell them to get lost in the first case, and I will want to hear their case for the notion that her process is so self-evidently false as to content and method that  such a conclusion is warranted.

So let's take a look at your last post as it regards Ayn Rand.

Here is your argument in a nutshell, as I see it. (paragraphs 11-14 of #124)
1. Prima Donnas are quirky, demand loyalty, are put on pedestals, consider themselves incapable of doing any wrong (in terms of morality and knowledge?)
2. Ayn Rand was a prima donna (demanded loyalty, etc.)
3. So I question [Ayn Rand's] moral perfection postulated by some.

HUH?

Are you saying that all Prima Donnas are immoral? Are you saying that being quirky, demanding loyalty, being placed on a pedestal, considering themselves to be incapable of immorality are in and of themselves proof of immorality?  If so, by what standard? Certainly not mine. And I don't think Objectivism's.

I can't believe that you think that this is a valid argument. So either I have misunderstood what you've clearly said, or you  said it in a way that wasn't all that clear.

Then you go on to say that this claim that she was immoral (couched in words that intentionally or unintentionally attempt to hide the meaning of your sentence), isn't meant to be demeaning. Surely you jest.  There is nothing more demeaning than to claim that one isn't living up to one's own standards of morality.  It is MORAL PERFECTION that we are talking about and her's that you are questioning (saying that you are questioning the proposition "Ayn Rand is morally perfect" doesn't help).  To posit, let alone assume, that Ayn Rand was immoral is demeaning.  It IS a good-bad approach.

Question: why is saying that Ayn Rand was the greatest human being that ever lived the equivelent of "worship"?   

Way back in post #13 I said, "if morality consists turning [sic] on the brain, moral perfection comes from doing it every day."

If you claim that Ayn Rand wasn't morally perfect (i.e she was immoral) amounts to the claim that she didn't turn on her brain every day (baring physical incapacity), I say prove it. Prove that any of her Prima Donna attitudes, posturing, etc. constituted any willful refusal to think when that was called for.  If you say she lied, prove that the lie was the result of a ''willful refusal to think"  Don't, in answer tell me that it's self-evident (intrincisim). Don't tell me it doesn't matter (relativism).  Don't tell me that your standards are different and she didn't meet your standards (subjectivism). Show me that there is a pattern of evidence that demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that her lies, what you claim are her injustices,  what you claim are her inappropriate posturings, and all the rest, are in fact immoral by her standards (Objectivism).  The issue is far from self-evident.

That was the point of my article and that is my point now.

Tom


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Post 133

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Tom,

Thank you very much for the historical info. I am looking forward to hearing your comments.

Robert - there you go doing it again. Dayamm, you get hot.

There is one small issue that I want to emphasize a little more, though (which might get me into some hot water, but so be it). That is the pettiness that is exhibited by prima donnas - ALL prima donnas I have ever met or heard about. I don't want to hold this up, like so many do, as a way of showing off my own "deep and profound wisdom," but I don't want to ignore it either.

Your idea of the impatience Ayn Rand exhibited being generated by seeing farther that most and by living long hours in a personally constructed fantasy world are correct, but that is not the whole story.

Artists are pampered creatures. They actively seek this out and demand specific focused attention on small whims and what I call emotional surges of those around them. This can take the form of persecuting someone over a slight and dragging their whole entourage into it, throwing a hamburger against a wall that is not cooked to taste and berating the person in front of everybody for a half an hour or more, and so on. Examples are far, far too numerous to go on detailing.

Of course, being geniuses and in the spotlight, they have no problem getting a deluge of followers who are all too willing to do what they want and put up with these quirks. Many, many hangers on are there just to try to get some of the glow for themselves. They will do anything at all to please their idol.

Tom mentioned Adele Marcus, a famous teacher at Julliard who was renowned for volcanic outbursts on her student and blind-siding them with sudden seemingly non-pertinent kindnesses, like offering chocolate and so forth during lessons. These were mannerisms, not some kind of genius. Her real genius was in her artistic-pedagogic focus, in recognizing the shortcomings that needed to be corrected in her students and in how to correct them. I would not call these mannerisms "perfect pedagogy." I would call her a great teacher.

As much as I appreciate Rand's genius and impact on my own life, I am highly fascinated by her as one of my real-life heroes. I want to know all about her and I love all the stories, both good and bad. I have no more use in my life for the "morally perfect" savior of mankind image, so I won't let her off the hook in my mind for her pampered behavior anymore. She was a great artist. She was a great philosopher. And she also had her moments. (She sure had a mouth on her.) Some of these were not what I would exactly call "morally perfect" moments either.

So what? So what in the long run? To me, one side does not obliterate the other. Both are fascinating - but obviously the artistic/philosophic value greatly outweighs the quirks.

Speaking of the quirky side, after having lived around a lot of these pampered creatures for years, I get outright belly-laughs at the extent that the brown-nosers sometimes go to meet quirky expectations. When I look from a distance, I see all too many similarities between Ayn Rand's entourage and things I have actually lived with. Some are downright funny from a distance - like kangaroo courts and so forth.

I report this, especially to Tom, not to make a point, but to give the evidence of my own long-distance perception. The "laughing stock" image of Objectivism is very real to those not close to it (among other more flattering images of course). I sure saw it - and can still see it.

Now that Ayn Rand is no longer with us, there is no reason to continue seeing her as "morally perfect" or emulating her quirks. Not even defending the quirks as "rationally" due to this or that. She was entitled to them. She was a prima donna for a reason. Her magnificent body of work now stands up perfectly all by itself in the hall of mankind's wealth.

Michael


Post 134

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Tom wrote:

 When one has used a rational process to come to some conclusion about how to act in a specific situation, the act is moral, even if, on further examination, one questions the facts or the conclusion.

This is the same arguement Long makes when he says it is possible to come to a valid conclusion based upon false premises.  Theoretically he is correct, and what you are saying, in effect, is that it is the process that is important not the outcome.


Post 135

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I think this is your best post to date on this subject. IT is a real effort to understand, and doesn't demean in any way. It achieves this by not assuming that any of the things you talk about is immoral.  Which was the point of my article and of every post that I have made on this issue.

There is more to be said, I think, because, ultimately we have to judge whether she was wrong about her judgments (even if not immoral) of the people in her life. In other words, we have to disassociate her artistic passion from her judgment and ask of the latter, "true or false?" (Same with Peikoff, et al)

But I am willing to leave that to another day (in a galaxy far far away).

Tom


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Post 136

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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James,

There is no certainty outside the context of our knowledge.  We either know or we don't know, there is no try (to paraphrase a very wise Jedi Knight). And all of our knowledge is contextual.  I believe you mentioned an article you've written questioning this. Is it available somewhere on line?

Tom


Post 137

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

I haven't written an article except this post http://solohq.com/Forum/NewsDiscussions/0372_3.shtml#60 an excerpt of which you have already commented on. The conditions for absolute certainty of a proposition are laid down by the laws of logic. They are as follows:
1. No disconfirming evidence exists  against the truth of a proposition.
2. Significant positive evidence exists for the truth of a proposition,
3. All possible alternatives have been ruled out 
4. No new evidence could be introduced that would contradict the proposition

Certainty exists along an ordinal continuum from the possible to the probable to the absolutely certain. Death penalty cases should require an absolute certainty as outlined above. All other judgments exist somewhere along the ordinal continuum.

The standard we set for the certainty required should be appropriate to the seriousness of the claim.

Jim


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Post 138

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Tom,

We crossed posts.

Here we go back to the beginning again. Defining our terms. Maybe if I use a little more Objectivist jargon right now, I might be able to get across what I am trying to say.

The question before the house is: are these mistakes MORAL mistakes? And even more importantly, can we make the claim that everyone is MORALLY IMPERFECT? 
That isn't really the question before the house yet. The REAL question is what is "moral perfection." Then we can judge what are MORAL mistakes and whether or not it is possible to be "morally perfect/imperfect." This has lead to one hell of a package-deal concept when people discuss it without properly defining it, and winds off into all sorts of misunderstandings. Especially things like:
Are you saying that all Prima Donnas are immoral? Are you saying that being quirky, demanding loyalty, being placed on a pedestal, considering themselves to be incapable of immorality are in and of themselves proof of immorality?  If so, by what standard? Certainly not mine. And I don't think Objectivism's.
And the intimidating:
To posit, let alone assume, that Ayn Rand was immoral is demeaning. 
I have seen you argue that, in the throes of a strong emotion, Rand did not have all the information and context available in mind at that moment to make a fully rational choice, so any mistakes she made (or quirks?) were not immoral. They were errors of knowledge. That sort of sidesteps the issue of defining terms again. It comes from mixing meanings up with each other.

Here is the package deal. If you make an immoral choice at one particular moment, then your are immoral person.

That is the package I don't buy. People go spinning off in all directions giving examples of immoral choices and defining what they are - and then impute a momentary lack of sound judgment to be the sum of a person in moral/immoral terms. 

If you succumb to the intimidation from this Ayn Rand-wise (Are you saying that Ayn Rand was immoral?! Hmmmm?!!!) you can actually blank-out any immoral (bad) lapses that she ever committed and rationalize them to death.

I am at the common sense level right now of considering things like outright conniving, lying to truthful people and so forth as immoral actions. We can trace them back to the "think or not to think" rationality level, but I don't want to get side-tracked into that. Examples of it are all over this thread.

All people are definitely capable of succumbing at any one moment to something like conniving for something they want. What they do about it later is what I would attribute to a more moral "perfection" or "imperfection." A morally "perfect" person in this sense would ruthlessly recognize what he/she did, correct it and move on. A morally "imperfect" person would rationalize it as not have been morally wrong because of this or that - it doesn't really matter why.

That is why I stay away from this designation. I prefer "morally developed" and "undeveloped" or even "good" and "bad" if you will. I fully agree with Robert that the designation "perfect" in terms of morality is not applicable. It is almost like the concept of "perfect" life or "perfect" value (how about "perfect" axiom?).

Good and bad do exist. (That, by the way, is what I gather most Objectivists mean by "moral" and "immoral" anyway. Not too precise but widely used.) There are even some absolutes here. But calling a specific act good or bad does not condemn the person who did one single act to being a good or bad person. Here is the unsavory package again.

I only bring it up because the result of this concept has led to a deification of Ayn Rand that I find not only useless, it is downright damaging to Objectivism - to the point of leading to the ridiculous "storm in a teacup" image Objectivism has projected at times. Did Ayn ever do a bad deed? I would say so. Was she then an immoral person? How about was she a bad girl? The package concept makes me want to laugh here.

Saying that Rand was the greatest human being who ever lived is not worship - but it sure leads there. It has led there. And it will again. It is a silly statement anyway. Ayn Rand was one of the all time greats in mankind's history. After a certain level of human greatness, though, it gets really hard for me to judge greater than whom and by what standard - it gets pretty subjective, if you will.

Michael

Post 139

Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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James,

Maybe I'm covering territory already covered, but here are a few thoughts.

I don't see how any of these points are available to anyone apart from their context of knowledge at any given time.

Let's take them one at a time.

1. No disconfirming evidence exists against the truth of a proposition.
How am I to know if disconfirming evidence exists outside of what I know (i.e. my context of knowledge)? If I claim X ("a person designed that bridge," for example) and you say that disconfirming evidence x-1 ("I have a picture of a gremlin building that bridge") exists, I must evaluate your claim given my context of knowledge. Your mere assertion doesn't count. If I accept your claim, that becomes part of my context of knowledge and I revise my claim. If I deny your claim, I must say why (in some cases, "It's a private matter" or "It's none of your business" must suffice). And that is something that becomes part of both of our contexts of knowledge.

2. Significant positive evidence exists for the truth of the proposition.
 This is clearly part of my context of knowledge. "Significant" is, I'm sure you'll agree, a slippery slope.  And it brings into question  criteria 1, 3, and 4. For say, you define "significant" as "greater than 95%" that leaves 5% as either "some disconfirming evidence exits" (calling #1 into question), "some possible alternative that still may exist" (calling #3 into question), and "some new evidence could be introduced." (calling into question #4).

3. All possible alternatives have been ruled out.
ALL? How do I know I've gotten them all outside my context of knowledge?  You suggest one I haven't heard of (gremlins did it, for example). If I even except it as a possible alternative, how do I decide whether to rule it out or accept it, apart from my context of knowledge? Possible alternatives are part of my context of knowledge, or they are not possible (i.e. they are not knowledge). In addition, what does "possible" mean here?  5% likelihood of being true as an alternative?  But how do we judge this apart from our context of knowledge?

4. No new evidence could be introduced that would contradict the proposition.
"Could"? How do I know what could be introduced at some indefinite time in the future? Suppose my proposition is "There is no santa clause."  You say, "suppose I could show you a picture?"   I say, "you can't do that." (alluding to my context of knowledge). You say, "Yeah, but suppose I could?"  I think I have the moral obligation to show you the door. For you are claiming the arbitrary as a possibility. And if you now say, "that's a stupid example, no one would claim that they could show you a picture of santa clause," what are you appealing to but your own context of knowledge?

Certainty of any kind to any degree is only possible in its relation to already existing knowledge (i.e. our context of knowledge). In fact, it is against our already existing knowledge that we make any judgment about where any new claim rests on the continuum you  allude to. We say, "given our present knowledge, X has this probability of being true."  And we set a standard by means of which we make some important decisions -- the death penalty, for example.  But since there is no such animal as "absolute certainty" apart from our current context of knowledge (which at any given point must be incomplete given the objections I have raised, above)(the absolute certainty of some mathematical propositions does not invalidate my comments, since that knowledge is part of our context of knowledge.), we say that the evidence must show guilt beyond a reasonable doubt or by the preponderance of the evidence.

Tom Rowland


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