About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 12Page 2


Post 240

Monday, May 16, 2005 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tom,
I wasn't alluding to anyone we both know or have heard of. I.e. not ARI folks, etc. But that would lead us into a discussion of 'what (if anything) is wrong with Oism (or the way it's promulgated or whatever). I don't want to go there yet.

Here's my point.  Too many people worry too often about their 'moral purity' and need (for their own real self-interest in this life in this society) to concentrate more on achieving valid values in their own lifetime.  Yes, abstractly, those two things are closely related and not exclusive alternatives.  It's not a philosophical issue in that sense, it's psychological.

And given your earlier post you seem to agree with Robert B on this by and large.


Post 241

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeff,

Yes, I agree.  Having a rationalistic, Platonic, "form of the good", floating abstraction, view of morality to which one is rationalistically attempting to ""live up" is mistaken, wrong and, by Objectivist standards, immoral.

It leads to an inauthentic, unintegrated person.

And, I am convinced, Objectivism is its own protector on that score.

The proper course, I am convinced, is to simply, straightforwardly, lead one's life guided by reason.  I include in that an ever growing understanding of what that entails at every stage of ones life.

I've been criticized here with the complaint that my definition of  "moral perfection" was too "woozy" and "abstract" to be of much value. I have countered by saying that there is a reason for its abstractness: namely, the number of concretes the concept must subsume. Strictly speaking it has to include everything from what Ayn Rand does at the high end of complexity all the way to the low end of an infants first grasp of an object in conceptual terms. In addition, it has to capture the volition involved and the "long-term-ness" of it.

The reason it has to be as abstract as it is, is precisely its value: the definition allows us to put Ayn Rand, Eddie Willers, and an infant on the same moral evaluative standard, within their context of knowledge. Thus, an infant who tells a lie isn't assumed to have the same moral standing as an academic philosopher who tells a lie. Morally, they are on the same standard (commitment to rationality over the long term) but the infant is assumed not to know "commitment to rationality over the long term" from a hole in the ground, while the academic philosopher is assumed to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the value of honesty.

The infant's error is an "error of knowledge" (and should be treated as such, for at least the first 200 times ;-) One does have to provide the inductive ground for the eventual abstraction, after all, as well as the proper incentive for not lying).  The professor's is an "error of morality" (and should be treated as such from the get go, which doesn't mean there isn't further context that mitigates the punishment.)

Another reason for making it abstract is to highlight the fact that, while it does take effort, it is a natural human function that one doesn't need to "worry" about in the way Robert B. has in mind, I think.  And it makes the process easy to identify and automatize. The more automatized the less "worry".

Now, to your first point. Unfortunately for that point, this issue came up in precisely the context you allude to -- the judgments we make about certain people, ARI, and "the way Objectivism is promulgated", not to mention the schism between Peikoff and Kelley and their respective defining documents.

I don't see how we can divorce the discussion from its context beyond this point if we are going to discuss it at all.

Tom


Post 242

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Tom,

There is much to agree with in your post. Particularly this:

"And, I am convinced, Objectivism is its own protector on that score".

 

I would agree that this is true of the fundamentals and a good deal more than those. (But I'm not prepared to discuss specifics right now.)

Like the scientific method, for example, when incorrect conclusions are drawn or even bad principles mixed in

the basics tend to keep one on the right track.  Capitalism has many similar 'feedback mechanisms'.

That, after all, is one of the lovely things about tieing one's views to reality.

 

Sorry if part of my post went off tangent in consciously excluding ARI, et al from the discussion. Threads do have a way of veering off.
That said, I can't tell you how utterly bored I am with ARI, TOC, or any other group or person bashing. Yeah, ok, in some respects those persons/organizations have been a disappointment to me, too. But, sheesh, enough already. (Sure, some people with personal experiences have a personal beef that makes them valid exceptions.) Anyway, I tried to indicate that comments on that subject would divert the thread and I did say "I don't want to go there yet."


Post 243

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Fine.

Tom


Post 244

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hello,
My name is Cory Einbinder, I'm am writting in response to an earlier article posted by Tom Roland in which he mentioned Philip J. Smith. I have been trying to find informatiion on Philip for a long time, I don't know if he is still alive, but if you have any information to pass along it would be greatly appreciated.
I am a theater director in New York. We are now in our final performances of Kay Nolte Smith's translation of Chantecler. I am the only director in North America who has directed the play to my knowledge. This is my second attempt at this beautiful piece of work, I directed it ten years ago in Philadelphia. I was able to get in touch with Philip then, but have lost touch.
If you need any more information about me or the show, please visit my website www.adhesivetheater.com. Thanks Tom.
-Cory

Post 245

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I am surprised this has not been bumped up again to peruse - well worth it to so do periodically...

Post 246

Tuesday, January 6, 2009 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Wow. It is great when some of these older threads are revived. Like being shown a great fishing hole you never would've found yourself.

jt

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 12Page 2


User ID Password or create a free account.