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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:54amSanction this postReply
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Craig, this is a great essay! It speaks to the idea of an intrinsic value, divorced from the acting moral agents. If practiced unrestrained, we'd all be dust.

Thanks!

Ed

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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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To play devil's advocate, if I value another's life more than my own, is my system of ethics based on that value as valid as John Q. Objectivist's so long as my ethics do not impose on John as an individual?

Sarah

Post 2

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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To value anothers' as greater than one's own is to demerit one's own...

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Post 3

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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I checked it, but I wish I could have given it half a check -- or "spent" two or threee, rather than four, Atlases on it.  It is good. 

I am taking a class in Law Enforcement Ethics right now and I bring essays like this to my instructor because as a liberal, she needs them -- and as an honest liberal, she appreciates them.  Her stated goal in the class is to get these people (young cops) to think about alternatives.  So, while she does hardsell Rawls and softsell Hayek, she does mention both.

 I have been looking for a good essay to take in for the class, something that fits on one page or two at most that I can set up, xerox and pass out.   This is almost it.  I say "almost" because I perceive a weak link in the sorites.

Ethical formalisms such as Objectivism or Marxism begin with universal truths.  From them, they derive prescriptions for human behavior.  Objectivism assigns universal value to individual rights as an intrinsic characteristic of human beings.  Intrinsicism here refers both to (1) the "fact" (claim) that each of us instrinsically possesses rights and to (2) the "fact" (claim) that we should value the rights of others. 

There is the business owner's quip, "I would never cheat a customer. I prefer that my customers cheat me."  The cartoon engineer, Dilbert, confronts his pet, Dogbert, who is running an investment seminar to sell securities in a company that he alone owns.  "Isn't that a conflict of interest?" Dilbert asks.  Dogbert replies, "A conflict of interest is predicated on the assumption that I have any concern for their well-being."  If we all have different values, why should we value -- or even recognize -- the rights of others?

The missing link in the sorites is the establishment of individualism apart from universalism.  We are all different, yet we are all alike.  What differences are important?  Which similarities are essential? 

A few months ago, Joseph Rowlands criticized a post of mine for "instrinsicism.'  I have been giving that a lot of thought.  I need more time and I take all I need.  In a Zane Grey novel, the hero says that he is not too smart, but he can turn a thing around in his mind while looking into the campfire and figure out what he needs to do to set things right.  That is my paradigm.  I am a terrible debater.  I do not think well on my feet.  I have few quips, zingers or, barbs to toss out.  But this thing with intricism, I can turn it over in my mind and I see that intrincisms can be derived from Objectivist principles -- and that Objectivist principles can be asserted as intrinsic truths.

There is a difference between "passing moral judgment" and expecting other people to change. I have eaten delightful pizzas in restaurants with pictures of the Pope on the wall.  In the words of Ernst Samhaber, a good merchant does not argue religion with his clients.  Relevant to this discussion, the point is that what other people do or do not value is beyond your control. Dealing with that is the missing link in the sorites.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 10/14, 8:06am)


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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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I liked this essay, but the statement "Politics is derived from ethics." didn't quite work for me so I checked into the etymology of the word politics. The first source I went to traces the word to Aristotle’s ta politica (Affairs of state) which I must confess I have never read (but now intend to). Incidentally while I was looking that up, I came across the word polemic, whose pedigree seems to suggest greater relevance to the sort of value manufacturing the article speaks of. I also found polenta and suddenly felt a craving for Italian food. It only goes to show that good thoughtful writing can have far reaching effects (for the mind and the stomach).


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Post 5

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Keith Phillips -- who apparently failed catechism class -- wrote: "I liked this essay, but the statement "Politics is derived from ethics." didn't quite work for me so I checked into the etymology of the word politics. The first source I went to traces the word to Aristotle’s ..."

You colored outside the lines, there Keith.  Everyone else -- any true capital-O Objectivist -- agrees that politics derives from ethics.  The Ayn Rand Lexicon points to:
The essay, "Philosophy: Who Needs It?" from the book, Philosophy: Who Needs It?
"Choose Your Values" from The Objectivist Newsletter January 1962
"The Objectivist Ethics" from Virtue of Selfishness
Many other citations are possible.  This is a fundamental construction in Objectivist philosophy:
  Metaphysics
  Epistemology
  Ethics
  Politics
  Aesthetics

I have no quarrel with what you wrote.  I appreciate the work and thank you for the citation.  I just thought you should know how everyone else read the original and your reply. 

Also, that view is somewhat unusual.  I mentioned the class in Law Enforcement Ethics.  Last week, we were discussing "moral laws" (intoxication, gambling, etc.) and I said, "All laws derive from some theory of ethics, but ..."  and I could tell I already lost them.  It never occured to anyone in that class -- including the instructor, apparently -- that Ethics is the foundation of Politics.


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Post 6

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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There are "Lines"?

Post 7

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Re post 3, thanks for putting into words what I couldn't.

Robert,

That doesn't answer my question.

Sarah

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Post 8

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Keith Phillips cogently asked: There are "Lines"?
'Fraid so...  If you get into real true capital-O Objectivism, there are those who assert that Objectivism is everything that Ayn Rand wrote, plus everthing written by her assigned "intellectual heir" Leonard Peikoff, who like Peter (not Keating, but close), has a "handshake" with which he invests other bishops, one of whom may become the new Pope someday.  In fact, because of Ayn Rand's intellectual influence on Walt Disney's Magic Empire, that "someday" has been pushed from "25 years from 1965" to "the lifetime of the author" to "the lifetime of the author plus 20 years" to "75 from years from the last time Mickey Mouse shook hands with visitors in Orlando."  In other words, as intellectual property, Objectivism has a life of its own.  Anyway, Objectivism is the sum total of these authorized works.

Then, there are the rest of us. 

We accept the basic axioms -- existence exists; reason reasons; ethics ethicses -- and from that we derive other truths.  For instance, some people here think that if the people who claim to be your government get you killed, it is your own fault.  Some people here think that you have a moral obligation to kill Islamo-fascists and other Saddamites.  Some people here are really confused on who should build roads.  Just about everyone here thinks that it is perfectly all right for us to get money from the government because we condemn getting money from the government.

You see, you sort of walked into the middle of a long discussion. 

If I may ask:
1. How many of Ayn Rand's books have you read?
2. How many have you memorized?

Humor aside, Rand, as a philosopher pretty much outlined how the world really works and how it can be improved.  So, we all here pretty much subscribe to the same body of knowledge.  Based on that, some of us color outside the lines.

I do not agree with Rand on government.  I am an anarchist.  I also do not agree with others here about the war in Iraq or how to deal with terrorists.  I think that Steve Ditko is OK and I even own a "Mr. A" comic book, but it is not my preferred medium of expression.  Mostly, sharing as we do a positive Sense of Life, we tend to walk away from disagreements -- at least I do.  You can find some 100+ post threads on SOLO. Feel free to jump in.  Just remember, that there are "lines" we expect you to "color" within.


Post 9

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Michael, in post 3, wrote:

==============
The missing link in the sorites is the establishment of individualism apart from universalism.  We are all different, yet we are all alike.  What differences are important?  Which similarities are essential? 
==============

The establishment of ethical individualism -- how could I have missed this?! Spot on, Michael!

Ed

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Post 10

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Michael, I must say that sometimes I have no idea what you're talking about, but I thought your Post 3 was really excellent!!

I think the problem with people asking "should we help the poor," etc., in a political context is not that they are universalizing values.  After all, I think that having enough to eat IS a universal value.  The problem is that they are ignoring the fact that they are violating our most important universal value, individual rights, by imposing altruism on others by force.  And the only way we can have a shot at attaining our values is by having our rights, our freedom of action, respected.

I am reminded of one of Ayn Rand's appearances on the Donahue Show.  Donahue asked her what's wrong with altruistic people, people who want to help others, what's it to you?  Her eight-word response blew me away: "because they don't hesitate to sacrifice whole nations."

Starting with the concept of rights as a universal value, we can have an ethical system where everyone is free to pursue his own particular values without interfering with other people pursuing THEIR values.


Post 11

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Suppose in fact rational thinking is of value to all human beings (except those unable to do it due to illness or such, though even they gain value via the rational thinking of their caretakers). Then rational thinking is of universal (enough) value--all those in the universe (or class or species) of human beings gain value from it. So, there could well be some (few) universal values.

Post 12

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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Quite right.

They want to establish the ends, the values without establishing the premises. Because they simply cannot. There is no justification for their means or their ends. And as such they are left with the non-value of UNIVERSAL VALUES. Egads.

Machan:

Are you sure about this "rational thinking" being a value in and of itself. I figured that thinking (rational as it may or may not be) HAS to come before the value: "valuer presupposes the value." But if you mean people who are good rational thinkers, well, those are invaluable indeed. Sadly not everyone values that or know it when they see it.

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Post 13

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
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A personal value in order to exist a body must exist also.
A mind with out a body is impotent. Values are not seen but felt.

I didn't reinvented the wheel I know, but the reason to write the above post is to make sure that people understand
that our body is a value tester.
Sometime this premises stuff could turn against us.
Especially when we bypass what our emotions already know.



(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/14, 1:13pm)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/14, 1:22pm)


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Post 14

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Some values are universal. Humans, in general, possess the capacity to reason and rationality is a value. The problem with Craig's essay is that it's argument for individual rights is a subjective preference . What if I don't value individual rights? What gives you the right to impose your rights theory, based on your morality, on me? Say hello to anarcho-capitalism with competing views of "rights" .

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Post 15

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:20pmSanction this postReply
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My definition of value is  "All that which we perceive through our senses has  potential  value."
And thus existence  is for some  a  value to be discovered , and already a value  to those who discovered it.


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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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If we all have different values, why should we value -- or even recognize -- the rights of others?
Logically, why should we value the rights of others? If Individual Rights are derived from Egoism, then why are the rights of others significant?

Well, if I were to answer it, I would say that we recognize others as a value to ourselves. If you could be King of the World, and everyone else despised you for it, then would you want to be king? From my perspective, we all have rights because we all have individual values, and therefore require our liberty to secure our values. The universal rule applies from an egotistical perspective, and from the recognition that all of us have the same requirements to live. We can universalize egoism through individual rights.

Craig


Post 17

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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I liked this essay, but the statement "Politics is derived from ethics." didn't quite work for me [...]
Politics has to come from ethics. Politics tries to answer the question, "How should I treat other people?" Without a moral vision, and an ethical framework, then politics is arbitrary, right? Why shouldn't I enslave others, if it has no ethical foundation?

Craig


Post 18

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Starting with the concept of rights as a universal value, we can have an ethical system where everyone is free to pursue his own particular values without interfering with other people pursuing THEIR values.
But, isn't it the point of universalizing individual rights, that we can then live in a society, (with all the benefits thereof), in such a way that we can each, egotistically, pursue our own values?

Craig


Post 19

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Suppose in fact rational thinking is of value to all human beings (except those unable to do it due to illness or such, though even they gain value via the rational thinking of their caretakers). Then rational thinking is of universal (enough) value--all those in the universe (or class or species) of human beings gain value from it. So, there could well be some (few) universal values.
But are they true universal values, or simply valuable to a large subset of the entire domain?

Craig


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